Did we lose yesterday?

[Beni71]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think any / many of us think we have a right to win any game.

I’m still fully behind Dean, but I think he’s made mistakes of late, and I think also that the team that cross the line aren’t playing well either.

Delighted with 3 points, but of character to be second best second half and snatch the win, that looked very likely at h-t.

I think we played much better football earlier this season, we aren’t doing many of the basic things we were doing then.  I expect more from the players on show yesterday, especially after an 8 day prep.

@Davefevsagree quality of football has dropped from earlier in the season. I do think injuries have “forced” a change in system and that hasn’t helped with team performances and the fluidity of play.

Alan Nixon quoted the other Saturday something along the lines “Preston 3 nil winners on Saturday, 3 nil down tonight, Boro 3 nil losers on Saturday, 3 nil up tonight. That is the championship”

It’s a crazy league and aside from Norwich no one has blown teams away, albeit Brentford looking ominous, but they even looked vulnerable against QPR. There will be very few 90 minute performances across the league this season IMO. 
 

Being a great analyst Dave, speaking from first hand experience , do you have a view on what makes or will make a successful championship team this season? XG provides a view although it shows cardiff 4th and city 17th....

In terms of injuries IMO get Mawson/Paterson back will provide a lot more consistency. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Street red said:

I do mean control rather dominant which yes the expectation is high. Do you think this comes down to players fitness and them producing consistent team performances(Individual performances),And being able to control a game for 70 minutes at least added with that the inexperience of Holden .. I will be interested to see how we come up against Brentford and how much control we gain in that game because thats one thing Brentford are very good at.

I’m sure all our players are fit.....but a bit like the Palmer debate, how much energy is wasted doing stupid running.

I used to bang in about being “strung out” away from home a couple of years ago, mainly because Pack sat on our CBs (he had many positive things he did, but....) and therefore the other midfielders had too much ground the cover, often outnumbered, etc, etc.

At the moment the distance back to front is just too large...45/50 yards instead of 35 yards.  The amount of ground players have to cover to get close to their opponent makes it easy to be passed around.  The beauty of the 17/18 team was that we forced the opponents into playing in condensed spaces, so when we lost it we only had 5-10 yards to press, not 20 yards.  At this level, even Wycombe (a direct team) will pass it if they don’t get pressed.

So in summary we are wasting energy.

Kalas needs to get us up the pitch and use his pace.

If you look at yesterday with the GK (Allsop) about to punt forward), if Kalas sets a line 5 yards into our half (instead of 20 yards into our hakf), every kick runs / bounces through to Bentley.  Bentley is the sweeper, not Kalas in that situation.  Allsop has to think about dropping balls shorter, suddenly Akinfenwa has players around him, it’s more difficult for him to get flick-ons.

If you then think one of our strikers is going to press Allsop, he’s then got to sprint back onside.

Much easier to describe on a whiteboard!!

Long ball teams want to stretch the game. It turns you into a long ball team because you never have a short pass.

Hope that makes sense?

59 minutes ago, Beni71 said:

@Davefevsagree quality of football has dropped from earlier in the season. I do think injuries have “forced” a change in system and that hasn’t helped with team performances and the fluidity of play.

Alan Nixon quoted the other Saturday something along the lines “Preston 3 nil winners on Saturday, 3 nil down tonight, Boro 3 nil losers on Saturday, 3 nil up tonight. That is the championship”

It’s a crazy league and aside from Norwich no one has blown teams away, albeit Brentford looking ominous, but they even looked vulnerable against QPR. There will be very few 90 minute performances across the league this season IMO. 
 

Being a great analyst Dave, speaking from first hand experience , do you have a view on what makes or will make a successful championship team this season? XG provides a view although it shows cardiff 4th and city 17th....

In terms of injuries IMO get Mawson/Paterson back will provide a lot more consistency. 

Quite simply....having the best players!

But also teams should trust their system and players in their chosen system.  Brentford haven’t deviated from their 433/4231....they went to a back 3 for a game, got dicked by Stoke and haven’t deviated since. That’s what their players are used to.

 

[City 62]

On 27/12/2020 at 11:37, Andy082005 said:

Stop being so short sighted 

We played a team who have no right to be in this league. 

7 of the 11 started away against Stoke. Arguably our best performance of the season 

Surely they have the right as they got promoted. 

As I said the likes of Watford and Brentford struggled against them. Not short sighted, just realistic

[Clutton Caveman]

23 hours ago, Blackbird1 said:

So relieved to get three points, but there is a serious lack of understanding on here as to how football really works. Even one usual suspect suggests we sack everyone including Steve and start from scratch! Baby and bathwater? If anyone in their right mind thinks our injuries don't  have an impact on playing style need to give their heads a wobble. Don't fall into that trap Dave your better than that. Talk about over reactions? Basso,comes over as someone with not only multiple accounts, but multiple personalities too, rarely have I read so much rubbish, even on here. But its a free World, so carry on with the madness. 

I always read the after match comments from DH. They are worrying. Either he has accepted that we play with now plan, no fluidity, no movement off the ball almost no press, no passion and no style or he has slipped into LJ mode thinking he can fool everybody with his bland and general remarks.

Yes we have injuries BUT the 11 we had on the field should be good enough to win the ball, pass the ball and create some chances on purpose.

Most of our goals (big exception from Martin this week) come by accident like our second goal. DH said this was a great goal. It was not, it came from a hopeful ball into the box and a mis control that turned out to be a good pass.

When was the last time we saw a clever free kick or corner routine resulting in a goal or close miss?

We seem to focus once again on stopping the opposition and when we get possession the wheels fall off.

If you freeze frame when we get the ball in midfield half of our players are hiding behind their marker and the other half are stationary, contrast this with the movement from Wycombe and everyone else we play. No wonder we pass the ball along the back and then hoof it because there is little option. This lack of movement and willingness to make runs to receive the ball has been a problem for 2 years. In my mind this can only come from a safety first mind set.

We are so easy to mark and shut down. We are lacking physically so unless we pass and move we get outmuscled.

Perhaps DH thinks his job is safe if we keep it safe and steal the odd win but wait until the season ticket sales figures come in next season.

I ask one final question. When was the last time a phase of our play that would have had you on your feet with real excitement?

One last point we all think all will be well when out injured players return.

For me Our back 4 is OK. Hunt and Kalas are the first choice, Vyner has been good. At left back we are OK going defending but poor going forward. With DaSilva we have the opposite problem.

All of our forwards are fit.

So I guess we think the big improvement will come in midfield. Walsh is untried at this level and would certainly need somebody like Bakinson next to him to provide some strength and height. Williams is something of an unknown to us (fingers crossed). Paterson blows hot and cold. Good when he is hot and awful when he is cold.

So frankly considering that our main issue seems to be the lack of creativity I can't really see a massive improvement when our squad is all fit unless we start to remember the basics of winning first and second balls aggressively, passing forward to you own player and moving to get the ball back, crossing to you own team not just lumping it in and being clinical when we create chances.

I think it is dangerous to wait and hope that returning players will fix everything. I say again, the 11 we had on the field against Wycombe should be good enough if they play properly.

Come on DH, don't fall into the LJ chat mode. It is clear where our weaknesses are. Be hard on the players and get it fixed

[Davefevs]

45 minutes ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I always read the after match comments from DH. They are worrying. Either he has accepted that we play with now plan, no fluidity, no movement off the ball almost no press, no passion and no style or he has slipped into LJ mode thinking he can fool everybody with his bland and general remarks.

Yes we have injuries BUT the 11 we had on the field should be good enough to win the ball, pass the ball and create some chances on purpose.

Most of our goals (big exception from Martin this week) come by accident like our second goal. DH said this was a great goal. It was not, it came from a hopeful ball into the box and a mis control that turned out to be a good pass.

When was the last time we saw a clever free kick or corner routine resulting in a goal or close miss?

We seem to focus once again on stopping the opposition and when we get possession the wheels fall off.

If you freeze frame when we get the ball in midfield half of our players are hiding behind their marker and the other half are stationary, contrast this with the movement from Wycombe and everyone else we play. No wonder we pass the ball along the back and then hoof it because there is little option. This lack of movement and willingness to make runs to receive the ball has been a problem for 2 years. In my mind this can only come from a safety first mind set.

We are so easy to mark and shut down. We are lacking physically so unless we pass and move we get outmuscled.

Perhaps DH thinks his job is safe if we keep it safe and steal the odd win but wait until the season ticket sales figures come in next season.

I ask one final question. When was the last time a phase of our play that would have had you on your feet with real excitement?

One last point we all think all will be well when out injured players return.

For me Our back 4 is OK. Hunt and Kalas are the first choice, Vyner has been good. At left back we are OK going defending but poor going forward. With DaSilva we have the opposite problem.

All of our forwards are fit.

So I guess we think the big improvement will come in midfield. Walsh is untried at this level and would certainly need somebody like Bakinson next to him to provide some strength and height. Williams is something of an unknown to us (fingers crossed). Paterson blows hot and cold. Good when he is hot and awful when he is cold.

So frankly considering that our main issue seems to be the lack of creativity I can't really see a massive improvement when our squad is all fit unless we start to remember the basics of winning first and second balls aggressively, passing forward to you own player and moving to get the ball back, crossing to you own team not just lumping it in and being clinical when we create chances.

I think it is dangerous to wait and hope that returning players will fix everything. I say again, the 11 we had on the field against Wycombe should be good enough if they play properly.

Come on DH, don't fall into the LJ chat mode. It is clear where our weaknesses are. Be hard on the players and get it fixed

So much to like above.

Even sides that attack in transition will have routines / patterns to create.  Since our early season play, which I really liked, we’ve stopped passing and moving.  It really is the basics of football.  It is not helped by large distances back to front, but that’s not the only problem.

You are so right at players hiding behind their man so they can’t get passed to.  One of my biggest bug bears.  There was an example Saturday where we got it right.  Hunt on the ball, Martin and Bakinson come and give him good options, lo and behold, Semenyo spins his man and Hunt now has a free pass down the line to Semenyo.  I can’t remember what happened after but it was a basic piece of movement in sync.  As you say the goal was well worked.  The highlights don’t include the whole passage....but I clipped it from Wyscout.

It stemmed from Nagy.

you can see Nagy anticipate where the header is gonna land. Nagy far right of pic.

Nagy wins the ball.  But look at our front 6...in really good, close positions.  He lays it off first time to Semenyo.

Semenyo plays it first time to Bakinson....who tries to find Wells.  It’s cleared straight back to him, and he then feeds Rowe.  We know the rest!

Bakinson wide to Rowe.

Rowe drives on....

By the time Rowe feeds O’Dowda look at how all over the shop Wycombe’s defence is....and the runs of Martin and Wells giving Rowe 3 options.

[Andy082005]

1 hour ago, City 62 said:

Surely they have the right as they got promoted. 

As I said the likes of Watford and Brentford struggled against them. Not short sighted, just realistic

No, because the league ended in a farce last year. They were 8th when we went into lock down . 

Will come bottom this season without a doubt 

[Der no.2]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

So much to like above.

Even sides that attack in transition will have routines / patterns to create.  Since our early season play, which I really liked, we’ve stopped passing and moving.  It really is the basics of football.  It is not helped by large distances back to front, but that’s not the only problem.

You are so right at players hiding behind their man so they can’t get passed to.  One of my biggest bug bears.  There was an example Saturday where we got it right.  Hunt on the ball, Martin and Bakinson come and give him good options, lo and behold, Semenyo spins his man and Hunt now has a free pass down the line to Semenyo.  I can’t remember what happened after but it was a basic piece of movement in sync.  As you say the goal was well worked.  The highlights don’t include the whole passage....but I clipped it from Wyscout.

It stemmed from Nagy.

you can see Nagy anticipate where the header is gonna land. Nagy far right of pic.

Nagy wins the ball.  But look at our front 6...in really good, close positions.  He lays it off first time to Semenyo.

Semenyo plays it first time to Bakinson....who tries to find Wells.  It’s cleared straight back to him, and he then feeds Rowe.  We know the rest!

Bakinson wide to Rowe.

Rowe drives on....

By the time Rowe feeds O’Dowda look at how all over the shop Wycombe’s defence is....and the runs of Martin and Wells giving Rowe 3 options.

You’re right Dave, its the frequency of this type of movement that is lacking.

There was a 4th pass option, over the top across into space for Sem, call me pedantic

[Red Skin]

On 27/12/2020 at 13:48, Blackbird1 said:

What really made me angry, was the lack if our strikers not squaring the ball to Martin who had at least two tap ins. It's a team game, if your teammate has a square on chance in front of goal you pass it..Not take a shot from the angle.That should be hammered home by the coaches, inexcusable. 

I agree.  Semenyo not yet getting a league goal seems to be playing on his mind, and he seems to be forcing the issue - shooting from far out and ignoring team mates in better positions.  Neither of which he was doing earlier in the season   Someone needs to have a word with him and tell him to relax.  Goals will come and his contribution in assists and pressuring defences has been immense. 

I think Wells is frustrated at largely playing out of position and is also being single-minded in getting strikes away.  

[SouthS22]

First half against Wycombe is how I want to see us play.  We were positive, passed the ball well, players making themselves available and giving options.  Shame about the lack of control and finishing from the strikers but this is what I think is meant by front foot play.  Bakinson and Nagy linked up nicely and looked like the players they can be, COD and Semenyo made inroads and defensively we looked solid.  
 

What then happened in the second half? Was it the halftime teamtalk?  Whatever it was, we reverted to type. Players hiding, no decent options or hold up play, lots of defensive running around and covering, which has got to be one of the key reasons we have so many injuries this season - players having to run themselves into the ground to defend rather than play on that front foot and make the other team run.
 

Why does this keep happening? Some blame lies with the players, but it’s got to be mostly due to coaching and management.  This is what the main worry is for me and why I am losing confidence in DH and the coaching staff.  Even with the injuries, we’ve got a good enough squad to be playing positively.  This kind of play does break out occasionally and in those short periods in games we look like a pretty good side, but we just don’t seem to be able to sustain it even against the poorest sides in this league.  The set up, positioning, link ups and options is what they should be giving the team and the confidence and belief in each other to maintain that or get back to it after spells of opposition pressure.  It seems to happen more in flashes than consistently though, which speaks to me of a  more defensive and negative coaching approach and which is leading to some pretty dreadful football.  

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, SouthS22 said:

First half against Wycombe is how I want to see us play.  We were positive, passed the ball well, players making themselves available and giving options.  Shame about the lack of control and finishing from the strikers but this is what I think is meant by front foot play.  Bakinson and Nagy linked up nicely and looked like the players they can be, COD and Semenyo made inroads and defensively we looked solid.  
 

What then happened in the second half? Was it the halftime teamtalk?  Whatever it was, we reverted to type. Players hiding, no decent options or hold up play, lots of defensive running around and covering, which has got to be one of the key reasons we have so many injuries this season - players having to run themselves into the ground to defend rather than play on that front foot and make the other team run.
 

Why does this keep happening? Some blame lies with the players, but it’s got to be mostly due to coaching and management.  This is what the main worry is for me and why I am losing confidence in DH and the coaching staff.  Even with the injuries, we’ve got a good enough squad to be playing positively.  This kind of play does break out occasionally and in those short periods in games we look like a pretty good side, but we just don’t seem to be able to sustain it even against the poorest sides in this league.  The set up, positioning, link ups and options is what they should be giving the team and the confidence and belief in each other to maintain that or get back to it after spells of opposition pressure.  It seems to happen more in flashes than consistently though, which speaks to me of a  more defensive and negative coaching approach and which is leading to some pretty dreadful football.  

Good post.

I honestly can’t be sure who to blame and in what ratio.

For Wycombe if you blame the h-t team talk, playing Devil’s Advocate who gets the praise for Preston then, where perhaps it was the half-time team-talk that got the response.

Its just a bit bizarre.

I’d say we have a weak mindset, but then I’d argue with myself that how can that be true when we showed good spirit to come back and win the game.

We are a bloody oddball team at the mo’

 

[Numero Uno]

15 minutes ago, SouthS22 said:

First half against Wycombe is how I want to see us play.  We were positive, passed the ball well, players making themselves available and giving options.  Shame about the lack of control and finishing from the strikers but this is what I think is meant by front foot play.  Bakinson and Nagy linked up nicely and looked like the players they can be, COD and Semenyo made inroads and defensively we looked solid.  
 

What then happened in the second half? Was it the halftime teamtalk?  Whatever it was, we reverted to type. Players hiding, no decent options or hold up play, lots of defensive running around and covering, which has got to be one of the key reasons we have so many injuries this season - players having to run themselves into the ground to defend rather than play on that front foot and make the other team run.
 

Why does this keep happening? Some blame lies with the players, but it’s got to be mostly due to coaching and management.  This is what the main worry is for me and why I am losing confidence in DH and the coaching staff.  Even with the injuries, we’ve got a good enough squad to be playing positively.  This kind of play does break out occasionally and in those short periods in games we look like a pretty good side, but we just don’t seem to be able to sustain it even against the poorest sides in this league.  The set up, positioning, link ups and options is what they should be giving the team and the confidence and belief in each other to maintain that or get back to it after spells of opposition pressure.  It seems to happen more in flashes than consistently though, which speaks to me of a  more defensive and negative coaching approach and which is leading to some pretty dreadful football.  

What I do know for sure is that Holden never said to his three forwards at half time “forget what you did in the first 45, I want you to make sure you lose possession of the ball every time you get it. Chris, you need to lose every single header. Nakhi, I want you to sulk for half an hour and contribute **** all. Antoine, in between your good moments I want you to make decisions that a Suburban League 7th Division player would make. I want us to defend for dear life and when they get the equaliser I’ll bring on Fam and Opi to win us the game cos they deserve a bit of praise.”.........

Not everything is down to the Manager.

[Numero Uno]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good post.

I honestly can’t be sure who to blame and in what ratio.

For Wycombe if you blame the h-t team talk, playing Devil’s Advocate who gets the praise for Preston then, where perhaps it was the half-time team-talk that got the response.

Its just a bit bizarre.

I’d say we have a weak mindset, but then I’d argue with myself that how can that be true when we showed good spirit to come back and win the game.

We are a bloody oddball team at the mo’

 

We do have a weak mindset.......in that we can get bullied in portions of games and not be able to get out of our half for 10 minute periods. The mindset in terms of effort and spirit cannot be questioned because we’ve won 10 games this season despite playing poorly for the most part.

This goes back to your “oddball comment”. We are mentally weak in some ways yet we are very strong in others. We play poorly yet we pick up results. We lack quality yet we score goals through impressive technique. Sometimes we dominate a spell, sometimes we destroy a team on the break, sometimes we look like a National League outfit being bummed in the Championship.

With us you think we’ll get battered by someone and we go and nick a win, you expect us to win a game and we look clueless. We are just a bloody odd side.

[Numero Uno]

The question I would ask to partly explain our issues is “where is the leadership on the pitch?”. Who makes sure that the tactics discussed all week are carried out where it matters? When things aren’t going as planned does everyone look to the bench for help or do we have lads out there that can “see it” and get things sorted out without waiting for advice 25 minutes later at half time when it might be too late.

I’m not sure we have players who can see when it’s going wrong and gee people up and get them doing things to put it right. We need that leader who not only does his own job but makes sure everyone else is doing theirs..........the eyes and ears of the Manager on the pitch basically.

Cotterills title winning team had it....at League 1 level.

[cidercity1987]

Its pretty obvious that Holden's tactics are to grab a lead and then hold on for the rest of the game. That's why the second half v Wycombe was much worse than the first and likewise in all other games where we've been leading at half time.

[Davefevs]

52 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

The question I would ask to partly explain our issues is “where is the leadership on the pitch?”. Who makes sure that the tactics discussed all week are carried out where it matters? When things aren’t going as planned does everyone look to the bench for help or do we have lads out there that can “see it” and get things sorted out without waiting for advice 25 minutes later at half time when it might be too late.

I’m not sure we have players who can see when it’s going wrong and gee people up and get them doing things to put it right. We need that leader who not only does his own job but makes sure everyone else is doing theirs..........the eyes and ears of the Manager on the pitch basically.

Cotterills title winning team had it....at League 1 level.

Agree, I see very few / rare occasions where a player dishes out a bollocking on the pitch to a teammate.  Sometimes it’s needed.

[Swede]

Win lose or draw this forum becomes toxic someone pointed out, why?

Well, if you scratch the surface fans can see there is no pattern to our play, why is that? We are a championship team yet play like a League 1 side, why is that?  The previous coaching set up wasn't working yet we've replaced it with one third of the same failed coaching set up, why is that? Look at teams like Swansea and Brentford, teams with a methodology, a pattern of play & technically highly motivated, why is that? People point to injuries but Vyner, Wells, Hunt, Moore, Semenyo, Martin, COD, Bents & Rowe have all featured in most games even without injuries, are they poor players? No they are not,

It all points to the coaching set up and the radical change that has to follow.

 

 

[Hampshire Red]

Why is glos old girl still banging on about the decision to appoint Holden. Do you want another Brexit referendum or what? Did you want an experienced manager like Hughton or Pulis to be appointed, did you want the board to do a fashionable U turn and re appoint Lee J or did you ever propose someone sensible like Klopp?! 

Anyway let's get the complaints written NOW ahead of the Luton game and drive more fans away from this forum, eh?