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45 minutes ago, real_bristol said:

The side that was in the bottom 3 compared to the one that is 3 pts off playoffs?

It really was and I appreciate the OP. I’ve just seen a lot of people comparing the double winning side with championship teams we’ve fielded since, all of which have performed better based on league position. The double winning side did not and would not better Holden’s XI.

I would much rather watch us continue to establish ourselves in the second tier than go back down to the third for the sake of entertainment. But I’m not knocking anyone who wants that. Even if it means we hover around mid-table whilst the current regime continues to rebuild, I’d rather watch a Championship City.

I can’t name any team that have “entertained” their way out of this league. Burnley, and any of Warnock’s promoted teams did it by being organised and adapting to opposition, not by entertaining in my opinion. Norwich at home this season even, not entertaining, two balls over the top caught us out, they didn’t play their way around us if you ask me.

While I agree with a lot of your post, dunno about the bit in bold.

I'd say there is a case for some or all of the following:

  1. Swansea under Rodgers- Martinez set ball rolling, Sousa was more conservative yes, but Rodgers completed the job.
  2. Bournemouth under Howe.
  3. Wolves of 2017/18- played some excellent stuff.
  4. Fulham that same season- some great stuff.
  5. Norwich of, oh, two seasons ago!
  6. Leeds of last season.

Honourable mentions too, to Watford of 2014/15- almost 2 goals a game but not the best at the back, Norwich under Neill kicked on that year arguably. pre Preston I seem to recall he had a reputation for quite attractive football.

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

While I agree with a lot of your post, dunno about the bit in bold.

I'd say there is a case for some or all of the following:

  1. Swansea under Rodgers- Martinez set ball rolling, Sousa was more conservative yes, but Rodgers completed the job.
  2. Bournemouth under Howe.
  3. Wolves of 2017/18- played some excellent stuff.
  4. Fulham that same season- some great stuff.
  5. Norwich of, oh, two seasons ago!
  6. Leeds of last season.

Honourable mentions too, to Watford of 2014/15- almost 2 goals a game but not the best at the back, Norwich under Neill kicked on that year arguably. Norwich's promotion and in terms of chances if not necessarily goals conceded, that of Fulham featured open play- at both ends!

West Brom under Di Matteo - 09/10

Cardiff under Dave Jones were good to watch. Smashed us most games and notably 6-0 demolition.

Sheffield Utd combined both pace and hard work in their set up with a bizarre tactic of centre backs overlapping full backs and have been up until this season highly entertaining to watch.

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Just now, 2015 said:

West Brom under Di Matteo - 09/10

Cardiff under Dave Jones were good to watch. Smashed us most games and notably 6-0 demolition.

Sheffield Utd combined both pace and hard work in their set up with a bizarre tactic of centre backs overlapping full backs and have been up until this season highly entertaining to watch.

Yeah, Sheffield United- good shout, I was pondering whether they had big possession stats but undoubtedly a progressive side!

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Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yeah, Sheffield United- good shout, I was pondering whether they had big possession stats but undoubtedly a progressive side!

Crystal Palace in 12/13. Bolasie one wing and Zaha on the other with Glenn Murray up front. 

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2 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Crystal Palace in 12/13. Bolasie one wing and Zaha on the other with Glenn Murray up front. 

I always thought they were a bit more counterattacking personally, but perhaps that was more under Freedman, less under Hollowhead.

Of course, that reminds me- Blackpool in 2009/10 were fun in the PL most definitely, and only really knew one way to play- under Hollowhead! Hit the crest of the wave a bit I reckon, but they were good in their time, no doubt.

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Just now, Mr Popodopolous said:

I always thought they were a bit more counterattacking personally, but perhaps that was more under Freedman, less under Hollowhead.

Of course, that reminds me- Blackpool in 2009/10 were fun in the PL most definitely, and only really knew one way to play- under Hollowhead!

Counter attacking is enjoyable though when you have actual pace in your side. Man Utd were experts at it for a long time, as were Bayern Munich with Robben and Ribery. The problem is with City is we have NO pace, so its not really a counter attack, its just regaining possession temporarily.

Yeah Blackpool would have played on the front foot as DH would call it. 

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Haven't watched us at all this season. Can't be arsed. That way I don't get frustrated. That's why I don't comment on team performance or players anymore. Holden shouldn't be in charge imho so why should I bother. Better things to do in life. Like pulling my own nails out with pliers ?

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Ironically Holden promised attacking and entertaining football. 

We are very much a low block and counter attacking side, which we were last season. Which is awful to watch, even more so when we have hardly any pace going forward.

So far all I can pick out from his 'attacking style' is playing attacking players out of position and having 4 strikers on the pitch for the last 15 minutes when we need a goal. 

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There are great games every season but most people on this forum don't go to them so don't know what it feels like to win at a 'Flying Fulham' win at Stoke, Swansea and Sheff U in one season, to win twice in West London at grounds we have bad records at (Griffin, Loftus). 

If this sounds like a 'Bring back Lee' comment it isn't. It is about how fickle most people are on the forum who don't understand football and that in every game, a team may get beaten and sometimes that is City. Last night Martin deserved to score and we'd be talking up the away win. 

Unbelievable some people 

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9 hours ago, KegCity said:

Equally the teams that managed to hold on to them usually got themselves up. Appreciate it’s a difficult balancing act but if the turnover of good players is as high as ours it’s going to be difficult to progress.

I refer you to the mighty Brentford FC.

BCFC is a basket case of a club.

If Lansdown really wanted promotion we would have got it by now...”I announce with great fanfare and trumpets....after 6 weeks of looking...the best candidate for the job....a very nice bloke...with zero coaching experience...Dean Holden!”

I’m hoping that the master strategy was to:

1)“stay up cheaply” this season,

2) get rid of all the waste of space midfielders we have;

3) get a recognised international talented coach with a penchant for fast flowing, attacking football, and

4) to actually sign some players capable at playing in the Championship.

But it’s the hope that kills you.

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6 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

There are great games every season but most people on this forum don't go to them so don't know what it feels like to win at a 'Flying Fulham' win at Stoke, Swansea and Sheff U in one season, to win twice in West London at grounds we have bad records at (Griffin, Loftus). 

If this sounds like a 'Bring back Lee' comment it isn't. It is about how fickle most people are on the forum who don't understand football and that in every game, a team may get beaten and sometimes that is City. Last night Martin deserved to score and we'd be talking up the away win. 

Unbelievable some people 

This is a pretty silly post. People criticising a lack of enjoyment doesn't mean they don't understand football. The holes in our performances are clear to see. 

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16 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

I refer you to the mighty Brentford FC.

BCFC is a basket case of a club.

If Lansdown really wanted promotion we would have got it by now...”I announce with great fanfare and trumpets....after 6 weeks of looking...the best candidate for the job....a very nice bloke...with zero coaching experience...Dean Holden!”

I’m hoping that the master strategy was to:

1)“stay up cheaply” this season,

2) get rid of all the waste of space midfielders we have;

3) get a recognised international talented coach with a penchant for fast flowing, attacking football, and

4) to actually sign some players capable at playing in the Championship.

But it’s the hope that kills you.

DAVE, Come on cobber, it looks like the Coopers greens or the Coopers sparking red ale has gone to your head. I agree with most you have posted but its a bit late now mate. You should get to Hindmarsh and watch Adelaide United play. They are similar to the gas.?

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13 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

There are great games every season but most people on this forum don't go to them so don't know what it feels like to win at a 'Flying Fulham' win at Stoke, Swansea and Sheff U in one season, to win twice in West London at grounds we have bad records at (Griffin, Loftus). 

If this sounds like a 'Bring back Lee' comment it isn't. It is about how fickle most people are on the forum who don't understand football and that in every game, a team may get beaten and sometimes that is City. Last night Martin deserved to score and we'd be talking up the away win. 

Unbelievable some people 

I do think much of the criticism of the Manager for LAST NIGHT is way over the top tbh. Stupid individual mistakes cost us the game, two by players who should have done better and one by an inexperienced midfield player learning the job, and that is frustrating.

However, putting that to the side, I most definitely do have sympathy with people who expect to see some sort of entertainment after spending their disposable income on football. We are talking THREE YEARS of functional football where we often "steal" the win in games we have had 40% possession and no more than three shots on target now............there is no sign whatsoever of this type of functional football changing and it just isn't pretty to watch. If you lose playing that type of football it is incredibly frustrating and down right annoying to sit through tbh. Whether you blame Holden or otherwise (I don't) it is an inescapable fact that the football we play cannot be called entertaining for the most part. It simply isn't.

Football has a lot of tough challenges ahead, post-Covid, whether it likes it or not. I think huge changes in the game going forward will happen (hopefully for the better) and the gravy train will come to a halt. It is totally inevitable that a period of reduced attendances is on the horizon. As guaranteed as night follows day. The £15K per week bang average Championship player might just find he will get offers for about a third of that money soon.

People with vastly reduced "disposable income streams" (let's humour Steve, John and Mark for a moment) are literally going to have to make hard nosed value for money decisions that they've never had to make before in a few months time when seasons tickets are put up for sale next season.........what masquerades as "football" played by us will not tempt many to part with cash they don't really have if the truth be told.

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3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I do think much of the criticism of the Manager for LAST NIGHT is way over the top tbh. Stupid individual mistakes cost us the game, two by players who should have done better and one by an inexperienced midfield player learning the job, and that is frustrating.

However, putting that to the side, I most definitely do have sympathy with people who expect to see some sort of entertainment after spending their disposable income on football. We are talking THREE YEARS of functional football where we often "steal" the win in games we have had 40% possession and no more than three shots on target now............there is no sign whatsoever of this type of functional football changing and it just isn't pretty to watch. If you lose playing that type of football it is incredibly frustrating and down right annoying to sit through tbh. Whether you blame Holden or otherwise (I don't) it is an inescapable fact that the football we play cannot be called entertaining for the most part. It simply isn't.

Football has a lot of tough challenges ahead, post-Covid, whether it likes it or not. I think huge changes in the game going forward will happen (hopefully for the better) and the gravy train will come to a halt. It is totally inevitable that a period of reduced attendances is on the horizon. As guaranteed as night follows day. The £15K per week bang average Championship player might just find he will get offers for about a third of that money soon.

People with vastly reduced "disposable income streams" (let's humour Steve, John and Mark for a moment) are literally going to have to make hard nosed value for money decisions that they've never had to make before in a few months time when seasons tickets are put up for sale next season.........what masquerades as "football" played by us will not tempt many to part with cash they don't really have if the truth be told.

I’m sure Steve, John and Mark have this under control. Probably just another tax right off for them. More money for them to invest in rugby at BS3 in 2021/22. 

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I can put up with losing games if we give it a real go. 1 or 2 shots on target most games i cant. Something has to change. This is far worse than the worst times under LJ. Would be intetesting to see how many would still be going if crowds were allowed. 

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13 minutes ago, Super said:

I can put up with losing games if we give it a real go. 1 or 2 shots on target most games i cant. Something has to change. This is far worse than the worst times under LJ. Would be intetesting to see how many would still be going if crowds were allowed. 

Exactly, me too. Look at how Leeds fans are with Bielsa. Their style means they'll get pasted a few times in a season, but they'll also give out plenty themselves. They go toe to toe with the opposition (whether it's WBA or Liverpool) in every game. Fans like and respect it. 

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16 minutes ago, Super said:

I can put up with losing games if we give it a real go. 1 or 2 shots on target most games i cant. Something has to change. This is far worse than the worst times under LJ. Would be intetesting to see how many would still be going if crowds were allowed. 

Think this season would’ve been ok because of all the season ticket renewals already banked. But it’s going to be very interesting how many renew going forwards. Think the club, and other clubs tbf, may be in for a shock at how low the uptake may be as this pandemic is undoubtedly going to change behaviour / spending patterns. People won’t have the money in some cases, or the inclination, or in some cases both to return to that commitment.   

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11 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

I don't know if that claim is actually true but I doubt it. I suspect our turnover of players is no different to most teams in our league with teams who go up. The reason we didn't go up (make the play-offs) under LJ was a streaky manager who didn't really know how to end the losing runs quick enough. I don't actually think it was a players issue.

For Holden, I've no idea as he has about 10 first teamers out. I think Mawson was the biggest one as he could actually bring the ball out at the back and was a cut above what we had. Stoke away, he was class and we looked a solid unit and the back with a threat up top. It was promising. As I said above, I will judge him when he can rotate players etc. At moment he literally has about 12 fit players of which some are not up to this standard so I won't be writing him off yet.

This isn’t sarcastic, are there any clubs that have sold key members of the squad in a summer window and managed to replace them and get promoted the following season? I can’t think of any, but I don’t really know.

I agree Mawson is a loss, equally he appears to be made entirely out of digestive biscuits so am not holding my breath for a long run in the team when he’s back. The same for Baker. Williams and Walsh don’t really count as they’ve been missing all season, including when we were second. Weimann would definitely improve the current situation but the problems were facing aren’t overly personnel related for me. It’s the inability to do the basics that you would expect from any player that we aren’t doing. That’s why I have my doubts around Holden. 
 

Hopefully things will improve when we get some players back, maybe the training will change and the boys will work out how to mark a man, make a forward run and play a 10 yard pass. Those are things I would expect of anyone on a football pitch, regardless of level, which we’re struggling with.

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42 minutes ago, lenred said:

Think this season would’ve been ok because of all the season ticket renewals already banked. But it’s going to be very interesting how many renew going forwards. Think the club, and other clubs tbf, may be in for a shock at how low the uptake may be as this pandemic is undoubtedly going to change behaviour / spending patterns. People won’t have the money in some cases, or the inclination, or in some cases both to return to that commitment.   

I think initially they'll benefit from the novelty of being allowed back, especially if it's not phased in gradually. Longer term though I agree.

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6 hours ago, KegCity said:

This isn’t sarcastic, are there any clubs that have sold key members of the squad in a summer window and managed to replace them and get promoted the following season? I can’t think of any, but I don’t really know.

I agree Mawson is a loss, equally he appears to be made entirely out of digestive biscuits so am not holding my breath for a long run in the team when he’s back. The same for Baker. Williams and Walsh don’t really count as they’ve been missing all season, including when we were second. Weimann would definitely improve the current situation but the problems were facing aren’t overly personnel related for me. It’s the inability to do the basics that you would expect from any player that we aren’t doing. That’s why I have my doubts around Holden. 
 

Hopefully things will improve when we get some players back, maybe the training will change and the boys will work out how to mark a man, make a forward run and play a 10 yard pass. Those are things I would expect of anyone on a football pitch, regardless of level, which we’re struggling with.

Yes, there are. Numbers may vary though.

Leeds (off the top of my head)

Peacock-Farrell, Jansson, Clarke, Roofe.

Norwich

Maddison and Murphy.

Sheffield United

Brooks.

Just off the top of my head.

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes, there are. Numbers may vary though.

Leeds (off the top of my head)

Peacock-Farrell, Jansson, Clarke, Roofe.

Norwich

Maddison and Murphy.

Sheffield United

Brooks.

Just off the top of my head.

Fair enough, they were replaced with good players mind, whereas we sold Brownhill (granted in January) and Eliasson and replaced them with a player who’s spending the entire season in the physio room and Mr Nobody.

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13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

While I agree with a lot of your post, dunno about the bit in bold.

I'd say there is a case for some or all of the following:

  1. Swansea under Rodgers- Martinez set ball rolling, Sousa was more conservative yes, but Rodgers completed the job.
  2. Bournemouth under Howe.
  3. Wolves of 2017/18- played some excellent stuff.
  4. Fulham that same season- some great stuff.
  5. Norwich of, oh, two seasons ago!
  6. Leeds of last season.

Honourable mentions too, to Watford of 2014/15- almost 2 goals a game but not the best at the back, Norwich under Neill kicked on that year arguably. pre Preston I seem to recall he had a reputation for quite attractive football.

It’s probably my memory then. Of those I only remember Leeds beating us convincingly early last season and I remember thinking/ hoping we just didn’t hit the ground running after pre-season. Wolves 17/18, wasn’t that the season they got a last minute winner against us at AG, meaning we matched them at home up to that point?

I’ll get back in my box but before I do I feel there’s been games this season where we’ve ground out results, Coventry, Huddersfield and QPR spring to mind. Not great performances but ones where we showed character to win. QPR especially after taking the lead, we look so organised at the back to the point where I thought QPR wouldn’t get an equaliser if we played for another 90 and that’s something that entertains me personally. I was hoping that we’d continue to play that way, get the wins even if we don’t play exceptionally well. Yesterday was dreadful to watch though and sometimes our formation confuses me but I’m pretty sure we lost 3-1 away to Luton last year so this season is an improvement :laugh:

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3 hours ago, KegCity said:

Fair enough, they were replaced with good players mind, whereas we sold Brownhill (granted in January) and Eliasson and replaced them with a player who’s spending the entire season in the physio room and Mr Nobody.

Fair enough- take Leeds for example already had Casilla on the books, Nketiah came in but didn't get much gametime, had injuries- Augustin even more so, Clarke they loaned back but he barely played and White was a fantastic Jansson replacement- Norwich still had past cushion of parachute payments but also recruited very well, Leeds loaning Costa helped. Their turnover quite a bit higher than ours as well, it all helps.

Brownhill- I thought the January signings were not bad on paper- did we get the best out of them? I'd suggest not but Henriksen had proven himself quite good at this level, Benkovic showed bits of what he could do under Holden- in the right shape- Wells, should be a solid 1 in 3, sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less- at this level with some assists and good movement- hasn't worked out.

The injuries are really not helping however- Brownhill and Eliasson sold, but if fit you might have a midfield 3 of Walsh, Williams and Nagy- with competition from Bakinson and Massengo, maybe the latter more as a sub for energy- not bad. Paterson wide left but not wing, again in-out- could see uses there. Weimann likewise on the right, Semenyo some competition- and crucially with some less injuries, I'd say a Wells-Weimann- see Middlesbrough away- could enable us to rest Martin every now and again. Good player but I do think playing him week in, week out in such a condensed season doesn't get the best. Wells on the left wasn't desirable either- but again, injuries!

Not even touched upon Mawson's distribution!

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11 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

There are great games every season but most people on this forum don't go to them so don't know what it feels like to win at a 'Flying Fulham' win at Stoke, Swansea and Sheff U in one season, to win twice in West London at grounds we have bad records at (Griffin, Loftus). 

If this sounds like a 'Bring back Lee' comment it isn't. It is about how fickle most people are on the forum who don't understand football and that in every game, a team may get beaten and sometimes that is City. Last night Martin deserved to score and we'd be talking up the away win. 

Unbelievable some people 

After we beat Wycombe I wasnt ecstatic. I was feeling we were lucky to get 3 points, relieved but honestly can't say I enjoyed it (minus the goals). It has nothing to do with the result, more with the turgid style of play we've had for years. 

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2 hours ago, real_bristol said:

It’s probably my memory then. Of those I only remember Leeds beating us convincingly early last season and I remember thinking/ hoping we just didn’t hit the ground running after pre-season. Wolves 17/18, wasn’t that the season they got a last minute winner against us at AG, meaning we matched them at home up to that point?

I’ll get back in my box but before I do I feel there’s been games this season where we’ve ground out results, Coventry, Huddersfield and QPR spring to mind. Not great performances but ones where we showed character to win. QPR especially after taking the lead, we look so organised at the back to the point where I thought QPR wouldn’t get an equaliser if we played for another 90 and that’s something that entertains me personally. I was hoping that we’d continue to play that way, get the wins even if we don’t play exceptionally well. Yesterday was dreadful to watch though and sometimes our formation confuses me but I’m pretty sure we lost 3-1 away to Luton last year so this season is an improvement :laugh:

I think we're a bit cross purposes. Agree- on the day we competed well with many of these sides, and Leeds looked an outstanding side from Day 1 I thought. Wolves- we absolutely did, let's not forget the 2-0 at Fulham same season, one of the first times we had that 4-4-2-0 formation or similar- Brownhill-Smith-Pack fairly central anyway. I still think it showed bits of Wolves latent quality to hang in and come back from 1 down- 1-0 up v 10 men with the crowd up and soon to cut the gap to 5 points, vs a lot of sides we'd have got 2, 3- though maybe some tactical errors and it would have been different.

We also played pretty well in the 2-2 vs Norwich in 2018/19- seem to recall Tettey getting multiple reprieves for a final yellow, including at 2-1, that game had shades of 2017/18 but only in patches.

Over a season though, reckon a fair few of those sides went up playing the right way- but for sure, we did well in a lot of the head to heads vs them, played well too. Did double over Sheffield United in fact!

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49 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I think we're a bit cross purposes. Agree- on the day we competed well with many of these sides, and Leeds looked an outstanding side from Day 1 I thought. Wolves- we absolutely did, let's not forget the 2-0 at Fulham same season, one of the first times we had that 4-4-2-0 formation or similar- Brownhill-Smith-Pack fairly central anyway. I still think it showed bits of Wolves latent quality to hang in and come back from 1 down- 1-0 up v 10 men with the crowd up and soon to cut the gap to 5 points, vs a lot of sides we'd have got 2, 3- though maybe some tactical errors and it would have been different.

We also played pretty well in the 2-2 vs Norwich in 2018/19- seem to recall Tettey getting multiple reprieves for a final yellow, including at 2-1, that game had shades of 2017/18 but only in patches.

Over a season though, reckon a fair few of those sides went up playing the right way- but for sure, we did well in a lot of the head to heads vs them, played well too. Did double over Sheffield United in fact!

Yeah, I based my initial shout based on performances against us only which is probably wrong. 
 

Be interesting to see how we do against Brentford, Preston and Norwich in the coming weeks.

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