You never win anything with ‘our’ kids

[ohhhshauntaylor]

I think we’re highly unlikely to go down this season, we’re also highly unlikely to not finish in the top 6. 
 

So with that in mind, is NOW the time to really give the “pathway” a chance? 
 

O’Leary

Edwards Vyner Moore Kalas Pring 

Bakinson HNM Nagy

Palmer 

Semenyo 

A bench of Sam Bell, Britton, Pearson, Edwards (O)

 

we have these 2 “superb” youth coaches, is now the time to utilise the youth and blood our youngsters who will at least show some fight? 
 

*Hypothetical team but you get the gist- that starting 11 bar Kalas and Nagy are all under 24. 

[The Fat Controller]

Not to that extent. Far too early to throw in the towel. Especially if any of our injured players will ever return. 

What I would like to see is the youngsters utilised a bit more at the moment while we have this injury crisis, take some pressure off of the players we are flogging because we have no other choice. Bell could have come on for Wells about half an hour earlier, for example. 

[Alex_BCFC]

We aren't far off that team right now with injuries.

[lenred]

3 minutes ago, ohhhshauntaylor said:

I think we’re highly unlikely to go down this season, we’re also highly unlikely to not finish in the top 6. 
 

So with that in mind, is NOW the time to really give the “pathway” a chance? 
 

O’Leary

Edwards Vyner Moore Kalas Pring 

Bakinson HNM Nagy

Palmer 

Semenyo 

A bench of Sam Bell, Britton, Pearson, Edwards (O)

 

we have these 2 “superb” youth coaches, is now the time to utilise the youth and blood our youngsters who will at least show some fight? 
 

*Hypothetical team but you get the gist- that starting 11 bar Kalas and Nagy are all under 24. 

Love the idea but we aren’t safe. Until such time,  the men paid the big bucks need to sort it out and see us to a position where we are.  

[Phileas Fogg]

No, whilst it’s mathematically possible the team need to do everything they can to make the playoffs. We were told ‘expectations haven’t changed’ and LJ was sacked for not achieving top 6 so that’s our measuring stick.

Harsh on Holden perhaps, but it means we as supporters should expect us to play our strongest possible team each game until it’s mathematically impossible for both top 6 and relegation.

[stephenkibby.]

Yeah not all at once but some minutes would be good. 

They seem to blood them in the top division. Arsenal playing 4 or 5 . OK better standard than our's  but relative to the league and oppostion?

[westonred]

With all the injuries we are blooding too many youngsters already that is the reason we are struggling. Vyner T.moore Bakinson Semenyo HN Massengo ought to be out on loan and gain experience as they are not Championship quality yet

[Lrrr]

Frankly tonight I think the u23's lads probably could have done better than some of the lads on the pitch anyway, Zac Smith instead of Tyreeq in the middle, Pearson instead of HNM, was highlighted early by Rene that their RB was a weak spot, have an actual winger who'll attack the FB can cause problems. Sam Bell on earlier frankly for any of the attacking players we had on. Towler has also played the holding midfield role for academy sides before apparently, if we're not worried about him physically could slot him in, from what I've read before on him he retains possession well and is a neat player.

[Better Red]

When I said our academy was failing in producing 1st team players I got roundly slaughtered. 
 

Now after a quarter of a season gone it’s a good time to revisit the question.

The first point is we just don’t having kids coming through. 

We have a few in and about the first team at the moment but most have been in and around the team for a while.

Tinnion is getting praise for getting loans but for me that also says we are loaning them because we do t think they are good enough.

For me apart from Vyner I don’t think any player we have is actually ready to challenge the first team or be better than players we could bring in on free transfers. Edwards could be a possible      to progress but not seen enough.

Massengo - Dreadful miles off this level. Waste of Money and will leave on a free or be released next season

Seymenyo - Can’t score. Never beats his man on the outside and never seen him cross a ball. Flatters to deceive. Will be on the bench once players come back. Could make a decent league one player if can find the back of the net a few times a season. 
 

Taylor Moore - Not good enough at this level. Mariappa looks better and would start every time over him.

Bakinson - This is a difficult one. He does at least look to play forward. But takes to much risk and another who looks to weak at the moment for this level. But he is light years in front of Massengo.  Maybe a season to early.
 

O'Leary - At best league one or two keeper. Never challenge Bentley and only second choice as we have not signed another keeper. 
 

And that’s it. If we had the squad all available how many would play - 1 at best plus O’Leary.

How many would even make the bench 2.

How many will play in the Prem - None

How many will move to another championship team - One at best

How many will be in the first team next season on a regular basis - My guess One.

Do any of them really excite you ? 

Value? -  Without Vyner £1.5/2.0m  It’s not going to fund any new signings. That causes another problem as mostly we have to sell to spend. 

The hype around our academy says we have Players coming through the reality says it’s a group not quite good enough. 

So for me nothing has changed from the start of the season it’s failing to deliver and it’s time we took a hard look at why the players are not coming through. 

This should start to raise the warning bells as no sale of the kids equals no money to reinvest in the squad. We are maybe one or two seasons away from a relegation season unless things improve and the kids start to come through.

 

[bcfcnick]

Yes, all in favour of giving promising young players a chance but I wouldn't have a line-up that had a young player who hasn't scored a goal all season as the main striker.  

One of the main problems is that there just isn't goals in the team.   Martin gets a minimal amount , Wells doesn't score unless played centrally and Semenyo doesn't score full stop.    We have zero goal scoring midfielders especially with the absence of Paterson, Weimann and, potentially, Walsh who got a few in league 1.  We have no Aden  Flint's who will chip in with 5 or 6 from central defence. 

It's no great mystery why we don't score many goals and therefore don't win matches unless we scrape a 1-0 - we just don't have players capable of that in the team.   If you count the typical goals per season from the players played you'd get to about 30 goals and knock of a few of that paltry figure if Wells isn't played centrally and Fam is injured.

[Lrrr]

Frankly at our level when a player looks good enough (especially young ones) they're bought, Bryan and Reid both bought after a good season and Kelly bought on potential after a good season, that's the problem any team will struggle with. Teams don't produce an academy player per season whose championship ready. As you've noted we loan ours out but thats so they get plenty of football rather than the odd game here and there incase someone picks up an injury, Cam Pring probably would have got good minutes with Dasilva's injuries and Rowe being the only option. Jonny Smith may have got minutes if we had thought we could have been playing with wingers most the season, same goes for Owura Edwards.

I'm not even going to touch Moore and Massengo as they're not academy players.

Vyner - has been one of the more consistent performers and earning his regular spot on the team

O'Leary - we've seen from him he has the potential to be a championship keeper (villa) when called upon but keeper is a tough position on the basis that only 1 plays so producing a #2 keeper isn't bad, fact is our second and third choice are both academy players and meant the club hasn't had to go and recruit for those roles saving money as you can guarantee Max/Jojo will be on less than Niki was. 

Semenyo - How would the perception of Antoine be at the moment if he was viewed as a winger/wide forward rather than an out and out striker? What 5 assists so far? Picked up a couple of cup goals and unlucky not to have a couple more (shot blocked a yard off the line last game for example). If that is how he was seen I think he'd be viewed a lot more favourably by a lot as it would be seen as a good contribution. He has areas to work on no doubt but he's also had games where he's been the best player on the pitch and created a lot.

Bakinson - First full season of championship football, Brownhill, Eliasson, O'Dowda etc all took a season at championship level before becoming settled into the standard and they were older, yes he's going to have bad games like today but he's also had excellent games so hopefully we see him gain consistency with game time becoming accustomed to the level, plenty of promise though.

Having a batch of 4 academy players coming through like this would be good for us and our history of academy players. Its not a snap of the fingers and the next season you produce academy player one after another, we're probably only now seeing the results of what was put into place at least a few years ago so hopefully it starts to become more of a stream of players rather than a trickle.

The chase for top 6 has also seen chances for academy players diminish, if Johnson had been told, if you blood academy players you only need to come top half (or something similar) then we probably would have seen a lot more chances for them, but top 6 (or fired as it turned out for Lee) makes that situation harder.

Am I excited by the crop of current academy players coming through? From what I've seen of them yes.

 

[Red-Robbo]

I actually wonder if some of them would give more purposeful performances, with more forward attacking intent, than some of the experienced pros we send out there.

We've lost 4 of the last 5 games.  What have we to lose?

I'm not advocating playing all at once, but it seems to me they deserve more than 3 minute cameos. 

[Davefevs]

36 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Frankly at our level when a player looks good enough (especially young ones) they're bought, Bryan and Reid both bought after a good season and Kelly bought on potential after a good season, that's the problem any team will struggle with. Teams don't produce an academy player per season whose championship ready. As you've noted we loan ours out but thats so they get plenty of football rather than the odd game here and there incase someone picks up an injury, Cam Pring probably would have got good minutes with Dasilva's injuries and Rowe being the only option. Jonny Smith may have got minutes if we had thought we could have been playing with wingers most the season, same goes for Owura Edwards.

I'm not even going to touch Moore and Massengo as they're not academy players.

Vyner - has been one of the more consistent performers and earning his regular spot on the team

O'Leary - we've seen from him he has the potential to be a championship keeper (villa) when called upon but keeper is a tough position on the basis that only 1 plays so producing a #2 keeper isn't bad, fact is our second and third choice are both academy players and meant the club hasn't had to go and recruit for those roles saving money as you can guarantee Max/Jojo will be on less than Niki was. 

Semenyo - How would the perception of Antoine be at the moment if he was viewed as a winger/wide forward rather than an out and out striker? What 5 assists so far? Picked up a couple of cup goals and unlucky not to have a couple more (shot blocked a yard off the line last game for example). If that is how he was seen I think he'd be viewed a lot more favourably by a lot as it would be seen as a good contribution. He has areas to work on no doubt but he's also had games where he's been the best player on the pitch and created a lot.

Bakinson - First full season of championship football, Brownhill, Eliasson, O'Dowda etc all took a season at championship level before becoming settled into the standard and they were older, yes he's going to have bad games like today but he's also had excellent games so hopefully we see him gain consistency with game time becoming accustomed to the level, plenty of promise though.

Having a batch of 4 academy players coming through like this would be good for us and our history of academy players. Its not a snap of the fingers and the next season you produce academy player one after another, we're probably only now seeing the results of what was put into place at least a few years ago so hopefully it starts to become more of a stream of players rather than a trickle.

The chase for top 6 has also seen chances for academy players diminish, if Johnson had been told, if you blood academy players you only need to come top half (or something similar) then we probably would have seen a lot more chances for them, but top 6 (or fired as it turned out for Lee) makes that situation harder.

Am I excited by the crop of current academy players coming through? From what I've seen of them yes.

 

 

in an ideal world with the benefit of hindsight, the likes of Pring and Morton would’ve stayed here and been ahead of Towler and Smith / Pearson.  In more Hindsight, Morrell would’ve started 10-12 games so far this season.

We would’ve / should’ve rotated better.

As you say, the academy isn’t a conveyor belt.  Plus we are trying to get players through who are good enough for top end Championship.  There will be some peaks and troughs.

But in fairness we have two genuine ones in every match day 18/20....Vyner and O’Leary.  That’s not to be sniffed at.

Tonight is not a time to start laying blame at the academy.

[bristolcitysweden]

Since when did we win anything of importance?

[WolfOfWestStreet]

Absolutely not. There are premier league u23 teams that regularly get beaten by League Two teams in the football league trophy. 

It feels nice to think the team should be made up if young local hungry players,but what people forget this is one of the most physical, competitive leagues in Europe. 

They would drown.

[Numero Uno]

5 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

I actually wonder if some of them would give more purposeful performances, with more forward attacking intent, than some of the experienced pros we send out there.

We've lost 4 of the last 5 games.  What have we to lose?

I'm not advocating playing all at once, but it seems to me they deserve more than 3 minute cameos. 

You can probably make that lost 5 out of 6 on Saturday. Compare the progress Brentford have made over the last 10 years with BCFC in Steve’s sporting vanity project where the priority seems to be:

1) Rugby

2) Rugby

3) Rugby

4) The Rest

[Loosey Boy]

Think this is where we will end up next season what with all the contracts of senior players that are coming to an end - this is SLs “vision” for the club.

I wouldn’t advocate now as, as others have indicated, we would really struggle in this league with so many youngsters playing....I for one, aren’t currently convinced that we won’t continue to slide down the league and end up in the bottom 6!

Lets get to 45 points first and then look to blood more of the U23s but based on current form, it could take us until April to get there

[MATT BCFC]

Interestingly Arteta at Arsenal did something similar to this and has won 2 in a row. 

To me full back is a massive issue, the way we play and the players we have they are our only width. Neither Hunt or Rowe have any pace or the ability to beat a man. Can't see how Pring or Edwards could be any worse. 

[Kid in the Riot]

Pring has to be recalled and in the squad straight away. Surely a no-brainer. 

[JoeAman08]

While I do not necessarily agree doing it to that extent right now, I do think we should be phasing in a few more before the end of the season. We have so many out of contract players that I’d be moving off of them and giving the youth the minutes off the bench. 
 

Baker, Mariappa, Brunt and Rowe I’d let go without a second thought. No doubt Baker has good football left in him but too expensive for his availability. Then have to make decisions on Hunt, Weimann, Paterson, Walsh and Fam. I’d probably bring back all of them if I could but they may have other options. Paterson and Weimann would be my priorities. They usually have good availability records and are two of our most creative players who have 3-4 good years left minimum. You still need some good pros around the kids and they provide that. 
 

In the mean time, they need more exposure. There will be chances coming up in the FA Cup. However, they need to be given more opportunity off the bench. There is no reason Bell shouldn’t be getting 20 min if we need a goal or Towler can’t come on for 10-15 minutes for a striker when protecting a lead. Situations will vary but doesn’t take much thought to find a few more minutes especially over the next month

[Lanterne Rouge]

22 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Pring has to be recalled and in the squad straight away. Surely a no-brainer. 

Absolutely. He`s cup-tied for the Pompey game though but that`s not important.

[Better Red]

So in short - We have Vyner. (23)

A second rate keeper. When Bentley moves on we will sign another 1st team keeper. (24) 

Plus a winger/striker who can’t score, beat a man on the outside or cross a ball. Also not sure he has pace, never seen him outrun an opposition defender. Looks better as a substitute impact player. (20)
 

And a midfielder who actually were not sure about. (22)
 

When you say give them time to develop most are looking at their mid 20’s...  So when we say kids. 
 

There has been a long trough....  Bobby and Joe left 2 years ago

I don’t think that shows a good return when you take a hard look at what we actually have now (not potential).

Joe & Bobby both lighted up the first team and were players who added to the team. None of these kids do that with the exception of Vyner. Booth were likely to get a goal. Both loved a tackle. Both could go past a man. Both could cross a ball.  

They are light years in front of this batch and we need to set them as the standard. 
 

If you were a scout for the Top 6 in this division or bottom of the prem who would you sign? None of them is the simple answer so No they ain’t good enough and we are talking about the best we have.....

As for Massengo, TM and also Bakinson we can’t even buy talent. Not for a few hundred k but for circa £5m - That is a joke and can not be acceptable.  
 

 

 

 

 

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

Absolutely. He`s cup-tied for the Pompey game though but that`s not important.

Is it possible to get him registered in time for Brentford?

[Numero Uno]

17 minutes ago, Better Red said:

So in short - We have Vyner. (23)

A second rate keeper. When Bentley moves on we will sign another 1st team keeper. (24) 

Plus a winger/striker who can’t score, beat a man on the outside or cross a ball. Also not sure he has pace, never seen him outrun an opposition defender. Looks better as a substitute impact player. (20)
 

And a midfielder who actually were not sure about. (22)
 

When you say give them time to develop most are looking at their mid 20’s...  So when we say kids. 
 

There has been a long trough....  Bobby and Joe left 2 years ago

I don’t think that shows a good return when you take a hard look at what we actually have now (not potential).

Joe & Bobby both lighted up the first team and were players who added to the team. None of these kids do that with the exception of Vyner. Booth were likely to get a goal. Both loved a tackle. Both could go past a man. Both could cross a ball.  

They are light years in front of this batch and we need to set them as the standard. 
 

If you were a scout for the Top 6 in this division or bottom of the prem who would you sign? None of them is the simple answer so No they ain’t good enough and we are talking about the best we have.....

As for Massengo, TM and also Bakinson we can’t even buy talent. Not for a few hundred k but for circa £5m - That is a joke and can not be acceptable.  
 

 

 

 

 

Bakinson will prove you wrong. Slaughtering him on one bad game is silly and a complete over reaction. He’s got what it takes imo. He will learn from last night and as frustrating as it is that his learning cost us at least a point last night that’s where we are atm. I wouldn’t give up on Semenyo either, that pass for the equaliser was class. Vyner is coming along nicely.

[grifty]

Quick, what else can we find to puttee club down with!?

Even though our u23s are currently 3rd in their league, the majority of players are 18/19, and 6 of the best are sat on our bench every week.

[Bobbie]

Such short sighted bull shit 

[MATT BCFC]

I have more issues with us signings 30 plus year old journeyman on big wages to be honest. 

The academy is one of the things that I really like about our club. 

[And Its Smith]

OP doesn’t understand what he’s talking about.  Currently in our first team squad, forgetting injuries, we have O’Leary, Vyner, Bakinson and Semenyo. Plus we have bought good players young to improve them in COD, Moore, Walsh and Massengo.  4 true youth and 4 bought youth out of a squad of 18 is pretty impressive.  I don’t see many other clubs at Chanpionship level with this happening.  We have sold Reid and Bryan for huge profits as well.

Plus the youth are just the first off the conveyor belt from when we improved our youth set up.  More to come and fans should be excited about them as well. Tinnion gets praise from people who know what they are talking about, and rightly so. 

You cannot ask a question and then wait 3 months to answer it.  This process takes a hell of a lot longer than that. 

[GrahamC]

11 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Bakinson will prove you wrong. Slaughtering him on one bad game is silly and a complete over reaction. He’s got what it takes imo. He will learn from last night and as frustrating as it is that his learning cost us at least a point last night that’s where we are atm. I wouldn’t give up on Semenyo either, that pass for the equaliser was class. Vyner is coming along nicely.

Totally agree.

Not going to lie, I thought Bakinson was really poor last night, but every player (Gow, Tom Ritchie, the true greats) had a bad game every so often.

It is highly likely Bakinson will have played 25 Championship games by the time this season ends, that experience, along with that gained by Vyner, Semenyo & possibly a few others to a lesser extent, will be invaluable in the long run.

The criticism of O’Leary on this thread is also frankly bizarre, I liked Maenpaa a lot but his spell at Stoke has shown we 100% made the right decision. You need 2 good goalkeepers, we now have them & if he is needed he won’t let us down.

[Numero Uno]

4 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Totally agree.

Not going to lie, I thought Bakinson was really poor last night, but every player (Gow, Tom Ritchie, the true greats) had a bad game every so often.

It is highly likely Bakinson will have played 25 Championship games by the time this season ends, that experience, along with that gained by Vyner, Semenyo & possibly a few others to a lesser extent, will be invaluable in the long run.

The criticism of O’Leary on this thread is also frankly bizarre, I liked Maenpaa a lot but his spell at Stoke has shown we 100% made the right decision. You need 2 good goalkeepers, we now have them & if he is needed he won’t let us down.

What the OP also ignores is that these “kids” are being run into the ground with our schedule because we have nobody to take their place. In an ideal world you give Bakinson, Semenyo and maybe even Vyner five or six matches and when they show signs of flagging you pull them out for a few games, tell them why you’re doing it, work in their weaknesses in training then let them have another go.e

Our lads are learning on the job but not getting that opportunity to take a break on the bench and come back a better player until the penny finally drops and you have an established player on your hands. Vyner seems to be strong mentally and his performance levels show signs of getting better and better but not all young players have that mental strength to begin with. Also worth noting that Vyner has 60 or so pro games under his belt at this level or similar which Bakinson and Semenyo don’t.