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Others on the short list July / August this year for head coach at BCFC.


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7 minutes ago, M.D said:

At Brighton they have a guy called Dan Ashworth who does the same roll that Aston does here. Its interesting to here how he describes his role and it all sounds very familiar to what we have going on. He describes it at follows:

 

He fell out with Hughton and Hughton had to go and they have now got in Potter who fans have lost trust in and are now questioning the structure of the inner workings of their club.

 

It all sounds very familiar with Brighton going backwards at an alarming rate too

Yes, read that before.

The issue you have is that ultimately it all boils down to results on the pitch, so to make it about him (or in our case Mark Ashton) is putting the wheel in the wrong place.

I totally agree that you can’t completely restructure everything when a manager loses his job each time either.

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2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Any idea how many other Championship clubs have a similar system in place?  I’d be very surprised if City  are the only club to use it.

Yes but does it work in England, as I've pointed out other clubs use the system where a head coach says I need to recruit in a position and is provided with a list of options and he then say try and get this one and they work down the list until the sign a player, top managers won't work that way

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, read that before.

The issue you have is that ultimately it all boils down to results on the pitch, so to make it about him (or in our case Mark Ashton) is putting the wheel in the wrong place.

I totally agree that you can’t completely restructure everything when a manager loses his job each time either.

Indeed but as I have just quoted to Robbored, top managers in England won't work on the outside of the wheel with so little overall control of recruitment of players and staff etc, I'm against it myself

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4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Any idea how many other Championship clubs have a similar system in place?  I’d be very surprised if City  are the only club to use it.

I don’t think it’s the structure per se that’s wrong, it’s the roles, responsibilities, accountability and decision making that isn’t working....coupled with independent critical analysis retrospectively.  MA is in effect marking his own homework!

Two plus two equals five, but....performance and opposition analysis is now undertaken by recruitment analysts.  Now, that could be seen as economies of scale, but only if the same skills are held by the recruitment team.  Opposition analysis is a different skill set to recruitment analysis.

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think it’s the structure per se that’s wrong, it’s the roles, responsibilities, accountability and decision making that isn’t working....coupled with independent critical analysis retrospectively.  MA is in effect marking his own homework!

Two plus two equals five, but....performance and opposition analysis is now undertaken by recruitment analysts.  Now, that could be seen as economies of scale, but only if the same skills are held by the recruitment team.  Opposition analysis is a different skill set to recruitment analysis.

Get that cock out of our club.

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23 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Any idea how many other Championship clubs have a similar system in place?  I’d be very surprised if City  are the only club to use it.

Probably most to some degree - but that's the key, it's how much of an influence it has. Does the manager have final veto? Is he being recommended players he doesn't want? Does the manager want to work in that way?

That's the issue. Some managers would be happy to have a more collective approach, others less so. It depends how much it encroaches on the manager's autonomy.

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6 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Nope, that info comes from Cook's agent. Apparently neither party was keen following the interview, so it's fair to assume both sides thought it wasn't a good fit. 

Cook is a "shoot from the hip" kind of guy, so it's not a massive surprise. 

Cook probably wanted to be responsible for more than the club were offering and the club didn’t want a manager who wants to question or challenge the hierarchy. All this leads to neither fancying the either.

After 6 weeks of looking the club were left with no choice than to appoint Holden. Anyone else would have brought their own ideas/experiences/structural change.

The club had to be seen to be following a process after the comments from SL, JL and MA post Johnson exit. However I would imagine there was a pre-meditated course for this process. Its quite easy to have a recruitment process and go in with a mindset of presenting reasons why any candidate is not right. It’s a harder thing to hold an impartial process when you are not swayed by self-interest and preservation of your own position and to go into it completely open-minded and without pre-ordained concerns.

Would be interesting to see one day who actually was interviewed, the basis and structure of the process and the reasons why people weren’t right (vs why Holden was).

Even more interesting if we were to ever understand what the unsuccessful candidates thought of the interview process and the people doing it.

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36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I don’t think it’s the structure per se that’s wrong, it’s the roles, responsibilities, accountability and decision making that isn’t working....coupled with independent critical analysis retrospectively.  MA is in effect marking his own homework!

Two plus two equals five, but....performance and opposition analysis is now undertaken by recruitment analysts.  Now, that could be seen as economies of scale, but only if the same skills are held by the recruitment team.  Opposition analysis is a different skill set to recruitment analysis.

Re the Wasserman theory going around, let’s not forget that LJ was also Wasserman too.  And several players joined Wasserman through KSM takeover.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/several-bristol-city-players-set-3909904

@headhunter

@Curr Avon

as discussed on FBC pod this morning.

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5 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

Cook probably wanted to be responsible for more than the club were offering and the club didn’t want a manager who wants to question or challenge the hierarchy. All this leads to neither fancying the either.

After 6 weeks of looking the club were left with no choice than to appoint Holden. Anyone else would have brought their own ideas/experiences/structural change.

The club had to be seen to be following a process after the comments from SL, JL and MA post Johnson exit. However I would imagine there was a pre-meditated course for this process. Its quite easy to have a recruitment process and go in with a mindset of presenting reasons why any candidate is not right. It’s a harder thing to hold an impartial process when you are not swayed by self-interest and preservation of your own position and to go into it completely open-minded and without pre-ordained concerns.

Would be interesting to see one day who actually was interviewed, the basis and structure of the process and the reasons why people weren’t right (vs why Holden was).

Even more interesting if we were to ever understand what the unsuccessful candidates thought of the interview process and the people doing it.

Yep, no different than loading the questions to get the right appointment in other walks of life.

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Understand it’s putting yourself in firing line etc but, honestly, lost interest a touch. Still a fan, of course, still care, clearly, but all very predictable.

It’s a 12 month appointment to see out Covid, I get that, and I also get that the ire aimed at MA/JL/SL will dissipate if the pressure turns on them to such an extent that a higher profile appointment is sanctioned. That's the great thing in their situation - if Holden works out it's a masterstroke, if he doesn't then it was always a temporary appointment in response to a challenging climate. If we finish 14th and a Howe/Bilic etc are appointed in the summer all, largely, will be forgiven. And, as follow on, if that succeeds the structure is vindicated, if it doesn't then it shows that the hierarchy were willing to appoint pedigree and they can shrug off any suggestion that their presence makes us unattractive as a club.

Back in the summer I remember saying that Holden for 12 months, whilst obviously not near the top of my wish list, was not as far down as you might imagine. And I think, on reflection, id still stand by that. We're mid-table with a busy physio table. We started much better than I expected and have tailed off. He's pretty much doing the job I expected him to do. Neither here nor there. Doing enough youth wise (Bakinson, Semenyo) to say it's a thing. Touch wood, of course, but the squad (injury free or not) has enough about it to ensure we stay largely worry free. What has surprised me, however, is how I haven't warmed to Holden at all. He painted himself as this no nonsense bloke who was going to grab the opportunity with both hands but it's all just descended into this utterly predictable, going through the motions, droning. Injuries haven't been kind but what are watching here, what's the plan, what is our direction, is there an identity, are we solid at the back or creative going forward and, perhaps most importantly, are we giving reasons or making excuses. Injuries are hampering us because we are lacking individuals who could impact a game, not because it's interrupting the team ethos or style of play.

The bottom line is results are all. People, albeit tongue in cheek, were scrambling to post promotion memes when we were scratching out wins early in the season and yet now are turning on Holden as results are highlighting inept performances. It's ok to be critical of the process in which he came about the job, in-fact it's impossible not to be, and yet also point out that the end result of that process is underwhelming.

People see the Holden appointment for what it was, safe, sensible, easily disposable and, come what may, more likely to cause ripples than waves. Football fans are very quick to forget. As Wilson followed Fawthrop, Johnson followed Tinnion and O'Driscoll and Cotterill followed Millen and subsequently McInnes the club, if not learning the lesson, at least show a willingness to respond when they have their backs to the wall.

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What I don’t get is this:

How many decent managerial appointments have we had since the halcyon days of Division 1?

How many of them have been made by the current owner?

How have those who were either beneath us or alongside us have progressed in a footballing sense - and there are several - and we seem stuck in the same old loop of doom?

How anyone in their right mind can still say that the Ls have been good for this club in a footballing sense?

Forget sustainability. Forget a nice new stadium. Forget all of it. Just think football.

Under Mr L we’re going backwards. Fast. It’s not down to LJ or Deano or anyone else. Blame lays at the door of Mr L and those who blindly follow the Messiah.....

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1 hour ago, Sheltons Army said:

Still amazed we didn't snap Big Micks hand off when he expressed his interest

Would have worked to a plan without bull or bluff, proven , non controversial, vast experience at high levels

Pragmatic , and would have at worse , been a very solid transistion

With Terry Connor providing a little City link too.

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Trouble with Holden when all is said and done, is that a lot has been said, but very little has been done?  I do understand that with the all the current uncertainty, that he was the easy option, a no risk scenario more or less........who could be jettisoned if it went pear shape.    After all his talk of targets and attacking football, he has just regressed to type, and is a dull and unimaginative coach, who should never have risen above a number 2.     Yes i know all about the injuries and the slog of constant games, but our football and tactics are predictable, there is no real system or plan in place, and so it goes. 

I believe once this dreaded pandemic is out of the way we need a shake up.  I would love an experienced British, or even a  German/European  manager  to come in and organise a long term tactical plan and style of play that all the players are comfortable with........yet I know how unlikely this is to happen, as despite SL being an astute and successful business man, he appears to have no idea how to create a structure within the club which will ever get us to the Premiership.  He needs to swallow some pride, and get some solid advice from experienced football men on how to get this club where it belongs?      A top football manager with an experienced background would come to Lansdown for advice and guidance if he was looking to build a portfolio of successful investments..............so by the same token, Lansdown should be getting advice from established football practitioners in how to get Bristol City promoted?

I do not purport to know the solution, but i do know it is NOT Steve Lansdowns present path, and is not having Dean Holden as the long term manager of this club IMHO.

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8 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That's not good news. Suggests to me that that archetype of manager (ie experienced, no bullshit, challenging) is basically a write off for the foreseeable. 

Obviously we wouldn't necessarily want a loose cannon, but lots of managers who've been in the game for a few years might be challenging or outspoken to the board. As we saw with SO'D and SC, that type can be exactly what you need.

In my opinion, what we need right now is someone with a bit of steel and experience. I don't think we're at the stage for someone who's still learning the role. We need someone who's in their managerial prime and has experience. 

Sounds like the board has siphoned off only one 'type' of manager that they want. They'll call it 'progressive' or 'forward thinking'.. but I suspect it really just means 'someone who won't challenge us too much'. 

To this list we could probably add cheap as well

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4 hours ago, BigAl&Toby said:

What I don’t get is this:

How many decent managerial appointments have we had since the halcyon days of Division 1?

How many of them have been made by the current owner?

How have those who were either beneath us or alongside us have progressed in a footballing sense - and there are several - and we seem stuck in the same old loop of doom?

How anyone in their right mind can still say that the Ls have been good for this club in a footballing sense?

Forget sustainability. Forget a nice new stadium. Forget all of it. Just think football.

Under Mr L we’re going backwards. Fast. It’s not down to LJ or Deano or anyone else. Blame lays at the door of Mr L and those who blindly follow the Messiah.....

Cooper, Jordan then possibly Ward and GJ. To that I would add Dennis Smith if he had been given more time.

I would turn the question around and ask, How many high profile managers have we appointed since.......forever. As a club we have always (in my lifetime 58 yrs) taken the safe option (apart from Benny, and look how that turned out).

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1 minute ago, Mr Chappers said:

How many threads of ‘Boo Hoo, I want a big name manager’ can we have? Why not just support the guy we have and accept the injury problems?

This is OTIB

Poster want everything their way 

If they dont get what they want toy get thrown out the pram 

No chance of them backing a manager or player they dont want or like

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4 minutes ago, Mr Chappers said:

How many threads of ‘Boo Hoo, I want a big name manager’ can we have? Why not just support the guy we have and accept the injury problems?

Because the football is uninspiring, looks like a lack of cohesion within the players, weak mentality, questionable tactics and the board set our expectations that their expectations of Holden haven't changed. 

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13 hours ago, City oz said:

Not since 2014/15 have we had any real success. This came from Steve Cotterill that led us to the league 1 as champions and also a football league trophy as well.

Back earlier this year we had chris Houghton, Paul cook, Ryan Lowe, Steven Gerard, Michael Flynn, Aitor Karanka and what did the owners of the club do they appointed DH. Well all of us may  say DH is a good bloke but no matter how good he is he is not a quality manager for the championship. 

It looks like another season where all our hopes have gone and if lucky we will finish mid table. This position might be OK by some but i do not think it is good enough for most.

OK great stadium but is it a rugby stadium or a football stadium ? Ashton Gate was once a fortress and full of atmosphere but those days are gone.

I blame the owners of the club and not so much DH. However the longer DH stays at the club or he grows some nuts to stand up then you may as well kiss this season good bye.

Lowe- Don't think many fans would have been loving that.

Flynn- See above.

Karanka- People would have liked it,but not necessarily his tactics! Seems to be a 3 year plan for Birmingham with him anyway, but if they don't win a few, will the owners lose their nerve.

Hughton is struggling to lead Nottingham Forest out of a relegation scrap, was Gerrard coming here? Cook- subject to contractual clauses I'd have been very interested in- however Nixon says he is now a free agent, no compensation was needed. Was a grey area but he is now well and truly free!

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@BigAl&Toby

Maybe the problem is, more accurately, was us!

Coppell was a fairly decorated manager and with notable success at this level- look what a disaster that was!

O'Driscoll was a reasonably successful, at least competent manager- yet he led us on the slide.

At that time tbh, we felt like a bit of a basketcase- neither of the two above career has remotely recovered post us.

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36 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Because the football is uninspiring, looks like a lack of cohesion within the players, weak mentality, questionable tactics and the board set our expectations that their expectations of Holden haven't changed. 

So you don’t look at the injuries, fixtures or bench, and think to yourself ‘Promotion is an unrealistic goal with all of these problems’. As for the tactics, lack of bodies, particularly in midfield, limit the options. 
Oh well, it’s only a TV show this season, not real.

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14 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Cook was interviewed but apparently wasn't keen on joining after that interview, which says a lot. 

I agree, our current predicament shouldn't be blamed on DH. Not his fault, it's the owners.

Flynn was also definately interviewed.

Via conference , then in person. 

You would assume he would have jumped at the chance to join a championship club. There must have been other reasons as to why he did not choose to attend the next round of interviews, leaving Hughton and Holden as the only 2.

Then no Hughton.

There is only one reason why Cook, Flynn and Hughton would not accept / pursue further the position (and it isn't salary) - and that would be the conditions put in place by THE OWNER that they would have to work under.

One of which, was severe limitations on the autonomy of the role, regarding transfers.

Very high source.

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7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Re the Wasserman theory going around, let’s not forget that LJ was also Wasserman too.  And several players joined Wasserman through KSM takeover.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/several-bristol-city-players-set-3909904

@headhunter

@Curr Avon

as discussed on FBC pod this morning.

No theory Dave, that agency has long had involvement with the person selecting the list of potential new players.

Rumour has it, an employee frequents these very boards from time to time.

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15 hours ago, City oz said:

Not since 2014/15 have we had any real success. This came from Steve Cotterill that led us to the league 1 as champions and also a football league trophy as well.

Back earlier this year we had chris Houghton, Paul cook, Ryan Lowe, Steven Gerard, Michael Flynn, Aitor Karanka and what did the owners of the club do they appointed DH. Well all of us may  say DH is a good bloke but no matter how good he is he is not a quality manager for the championship. 

It looks like another season where all our hopes have gone and if lucky we will finish mid table. This position might be OK by some but i do not think it is good enough for most.

OK great stadium but is it a rugby stadium or a football stadium ? Ashton Gate was once a fortress and full of atmosphere but those days are gone.

I blame the owners of the club and not so much DH. However the longer DH stays at the club or he grows some nuts to stand up then you may as well kiss this season good bye.

I thought we had already.

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15 hours ago, City oz said:

Nothing will beat watching City play in the Prem like the old division 1 days ...

With due respect, I’m not sure I agree with that Oz ... I’ve followed our beloved club for 47 years and the best times I love to recall are the glorious seasons under Terry Cooper when he picked Bristol City up by the scruff of the neck, dragged us back up and and showed us all how much he cared about our club.

Yep, of course I enjoyed our time in the top tier, watching players like Hoddle and Dalglish show us how good they really were against our chaps - but watching the likes of Riley, Walsh, Neville, Newman, Pritchard, Llewelyn, Economou, etc etc etc rescue us from the horror of 1982 still burns bright within me ... those days were superb - we had small crowds but boy did we get behind those lads ... the resurgence of Bristol City after we plummeted from Div 1 to Div 4 was a magical time - and I will never forget Terry Cooper’s huge contribution to the history of Bristol City ... for me Oz, nothing will beat those days ...

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4 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

No theory Dave, that agency has long had involvement with the person selecting the list of potential new players.

Rumour has it, an employee frequents these very boards from time to time.

Wasn’t knighty is it? Their rumours and stories of interest actually being testing the waters with fans ?

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Derek McInness is perhaps the one appointment that should have worked a lot better than it did? A dynamic, young ambitious manager who had at least some management experience at a decent level (yeah Scotland but...) and he's certainly done well since, Aberdeen are never going to consisently challenge the big 2 but he consistently gets them to 3rd place, or 2nd when Rangers were out of the picture and even won the League cup.

First season he did well to keep us up but second season was a disaster. What went wrong?

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1 hour ago, fgrsimon said:

Derek McInness is perhaps the one appointment that should have worked a lot better than it did? A dynamic, young ambitious manager who had at least some management experience at a decent level (yeah Scotland but...) and he's certainly done well since, Aberdeen are never going to consisently challenge the big 2 but he consistently gets them to 3rd place, or 2nd when Rangers were out of the picture and even won the League cup.

First season he did well to keep us up but second season was a disaster. What went wrong?

McInnes was hamstrung by a 50% cut to his playing budget which meant that we failed to secure a decent centre back. That, combined with the loss of Kalifa Cisse accelerated the decline from the 2011/12 season.

 

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6 hours ago, fgrsimon said:

Derek McInness is perhaps the one appointment that should have worked a lot better than it did? A dynamic, young ambitious manager who had at least some management experience at a decent level (yeah Scotland but...) and he's certainly done well since, Aberdeen are never going to consisently challenge the big 2 but he consistently gets them to 3rd place, or 2nd when Rangers were out of the picture and even won the League cup.

First season he did well to keep us up but second season was a disaster. What went wrong?

McInnes' main source of support and "mentor" whilst he was at City was Jon Lansdown. Think that pretty much covers it. 

He asked for help with recruitment, and got none. 

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