Others on the short list July / August this year for head coach at BCFC.

[Harry]

6 hours ago, fgrsimon said:

Derek McInness is perhaps the one appointment that should have worked a lot better than it did? A dynamic, young ambitious manager who had at least some management experience at a decent level (yeah Scotland but...) and he's certainly done well since, Aberdeen are never going to consisently challenge the big 2 but he consistently gets them to 3rd place, or 2nd when Rangers were out of the picture and even won the League cup.

First season he did well to keep us up but second season was a disaster. What went wrong?

 

10 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

McInnes' main source of support and "mentor" whilst he was at City was Jon Lansdown. Think that pretty much covers it. 

He asked for help with recruitment, and got none. 

Oh, McInnes had help with recruitment alright. 
I’ve said plenty of times on here, a certain Mr Ashton was in the building through 2012, helping our Derek with his latest list of drunks and injury prone has-beens in the likes of Davies & Pearson. 

[City oz]

9 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

With due respect, I’m not sure I agree with that Oz ... I’ve followed our beloved club for 47 years and the best times I love to recall are the glorious seasons under Terry Cooper when he picked Bristol City up by the scruff of the neck, dragged us back up and and showed us all how much he cared about our club.

Yep, of course I enjoyed our time in the top tier, watching players like Hoddle and Dalglish show us how good they really were against our chaps - but watching the likes of Riley, Walsh, Neville, Newman, Pritchard, Llewelyn, Economou, etc etc etc rescue us from the horror of 1982 still burns bright within me ... those days were superb - we had small crowds but boy did we get behind those lads ... the resurgence of Bristol City after we plummeted from Div 1 to Div 4 was a magical time - and I will never forget Terry Cooper’s huge contribution to the history of Bristol City ... for me Oz, nothing will beat those days ...

Agree on all of the above BS4. I was 5 years old and it was 1967 when my dad took me to Ashton gate. I still remember it well. I purched myself on the railing (the one that went from front to back) in the East End on the line of column 3. Great, great years with lots of memories and mostly good.

All the best for the new year 

[City oz]

13 hours ago, Mr Chappers said:

How many threads of ‘Boo Hoo, I want a big name manager’ can we have? Why not just support the guy we have and accept the injury problems?

Don’t need a big name manager. The club needs a manager with big balls 

[chinapig]

11 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

No theory Dave, that agency has long had involvement with the person selecting the list of potential new players.

Rumour has it, an employee frequents these very boards from time to time.

Pre-season we were told we had too many midfielders so had to move some out. We then signed the superannuated Brunt, which made little sense.

I can't help wondering what agency represents him.

[Major Isewater]

20 hours ago, Robbored said:

Not many established managers would fancy the City job if they had to adhere to SLs policy of sustainability which means losing your better players every window.

 

I don’t agree Robbored , nearly every manager has to balance the books and deal with ambitious players who see greener grass elsewhere.

 I persist in the belief that the job here is a very desirable one for the vast majority of managers/coaches. 
 

Is it going to attract the hard nosed blokes who demand success ? 
 

That is the big question. 
 

As an aside I think we would have been a good match up with Mark Robins. 

1 hour ago, City oz said:

purched myself

I read that as ‘ punched ‘ .

[The Constant Rabbit]

12 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Pre-season we were told we had too many midfielders so had to move some out. We then signed the superannuated Brunt, which made little sense.

I can't help wondering what agency represents him.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/chris-brunt/profil/spieler/36814

 

Take a wild guess.

Begins with W

[City oz]

3 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I don’t agree Robbored , nearly every manager has to balance the books and deal with ambitious players who see greener grass elsewhere.

 I persist in the belief that the job here is a very desirable one for the vast majority of managers/coaches. 
 

Is it going to attract the hard nosed blokes who demand success ? 
 

That is the big question. 
 

As an aside I think we would have been a good match up with Mark Robins. 

I read that as ‘ punched ‘ .

Sat aside the barrier major. Happy new year 

[The Constant Rabbit]

Save pissing about:

Here's their client list (public) - have fun spotting ex-City players

Current City Player

Players linked with City

'Rumoured to be linked with City'

https://www.transfermarkt.com/wasserman/beraterfirma/berater/440

Then check the time-period.

Makes 'Berts brown bags' quite nostalgic...

 

 

[The Constant Rabbit]

That list will also answer the Liam Walsh questions as well.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/liam-walsh/profil/spieler/314998

https://www.transfermarkt.com/eddie-howe/profil/trainer/10976

https://www.transfermarkt.com/adam-matthews/profil/spieler/108878

https://www.transfermarkt.com/joe-williams/profil/spieler/268185

https://www.transfermarkt.com/sam-baldock/profil/spieler/67211

https://www.transfermarkt.com/zak-vyner/profil/spieler/417955

https://www.transfermarkt.com/callum-odowda/profil/spieler/255679

https://www.transfermarkt.com/marlon-pack/profil/spieler/118779

The list goes on and on - all Wasserman, check the time periods.....

 

[M.D]

6 minutes ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

That list will also answer the Liam Walsh questions as well.

 

Joe Williams too..

[exAtyeoMax]

10 minutes ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

That list will also answer the Liam Walsh questions as well.

 

Sorry, I’m not familiar with the site, I’m looking at it...is it that he isn’t marked as injured like AW?

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, City oz said:

Sat aside the barrier major. Happy new year 

And to you too.

[IAmNick]

I think my main concern isn't so much the system, which others are very critical of, but rather the way it's implemented / people who are implementing it. I think the system is decent and could work.

I work in tech and see what I think is the problem all the time though - Spotify are a great example. They're a huge, successful company, and known for publicly giving loads of insight into how they're run. What happens is other tech companies see it and assume if they just lift and shift it into their own company they'll become more like Spotify, and thus more successful. Of course, they ignore that Spotify evolved their systems over years and years with some extremely smart people, so they have created a system that works for them. It's not a quick win tech company system, it's a Spotify system. When it's then just 1:1 copied, it pretty much never works the same somewhere else for that reason.

My concern is that with the Lansdowns and Ashton attempting to implement this system, none of them have the knowledge of how to do it. None of them have experience with success (and I mean actual success in relation to what we want) through the system elsewhere. Using a more "European" model or whatever sounds great but only if you really understand how and why it works - and are willing to adapt and iterate on it to make it a system for Bristol City, not a generic system you've cribbed from another club you like the look of hoping to replicate it's success.

If the rumours about managers being put off or turned away due to how the system works that raises a big red flag for me. They're valuable and intelligent people who should be used to adapt and improve our system rather than told to fit in with it 100% - and my guess is that's because the people at the top aren't approaching the "process" in the right way.

[M.D]

16 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I think my main concern isn't so much the system, which others are very critical of, but rather the way it's implemented / people who are implementing it. I think the system is decent and could work.

I work in tech and see what I think is the problem all the time though - Spotify are a great example. They're a huge, successful company, and known for publicly giving loads of insight into how they're run. What happens is other tech companies see it and assume if they just lift and shift it into their own company they'll become more like Spotify, and thus more successful. Of course, they ignore that Spotify evolved their systems over years and years with some extremely smart people, so they have created a system that works for them. It's not a quick win tech company system, it's a Spotify system. When it's then just 1:1 copied, it pretty much never works the same somewhere else for that reason.

My concern is that with the Lansdowns and Ashton attempting to implement this system, none of them have the knowledge of how to do it. None of them have experience with success (and I mean actual success in relation to what we want) through the system elsewhere. Using a more "European" model or whatever sounds great but only if you really understand how and why it works - and are willing to adapt and iterate on it to make it a system for Bristol City, not a generic system you've cribbed from another club you like the look of hoping to replicate it's success.

If the rumours about managers being put off or turned away due to how the system works that raises a big red flag for me. They're valuable and intelligent people who should be used to adapt and improve our system rather than told to fit in with it 100% - and my guess is that's because the people at the top aren't approaching the "process" in the right way.

I think you sum things up perfectly 

[CodeRed]

1 hour ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

That list will also answer the Liam Walsh questions as well.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/liam-walsh/profil/spieler/314998

https://www.transfermarkt.com/eddie-howe/profil/trainer/10976

https://www.transfermarkt.com/adam-matthews/profil/spieler/108878

https://www.transfermarkt.com/joe-williams/profil/spieler/268185

https://www.transfermarkt.com/sam-baldock/profil/spieler/67211

https://www.transfermarkt.com/zak-vyner/profil/spieler/417955

https://www.transfermarkt.com/callum-odowda/profil/spieler/255679

https://www.transfermarkt.com/marlon-pack/profil/spieler/118779

The list goes on and on - all Wasserman, check the time periods.....

 

Also the goalkeeper Zack Steffan that we were linked with several times before he joined MCFC is on their roster.

Although they are a very large agency with hundreds of players,  we have 6 players who have Wasserman as their agent - the same as Feyenoord,  Blackburn and Man City have 5, Leicester, Forest, and Derby 4, most clubs have some Wasserman players.  

Adam Nagy was said by someone on here to be on their books as well but he is not among their clients. Interestingly neither Gustav Engvall, Niclas Eliasson, or Lois Diony are on their books either.  So I'm not sure there's anything amiss.........and I'm someone who doesn't rate Ashton at all!

[exAtyeoMax]

26 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I think my main concern isn't so much the system, which others are very critical of, but rather the way it's implemented / people who are implementing it. I think the system is decent and could work.

I work in tech and see what I think is the problem all the time though - Spotify are a great example. They're a huge, successful company, and known for publicly giving loads of insight into how they're run. What happens is other tech companies see it and assume if they just lift and shift it into their own company they'll become more like Spotify, and thus more successful. Of course, they ignore that Spotify evolved their systems over years and years with some extremely smart people, so they have created a system that works for them. It's not a quick win tech company system, it's a Spotify system. When it's then just 1:1 copied, it pretty much never works the same somewhere else for that reason.

My concern is that with the Lansdowns and Ashton attempting to implement this system, none of them have the knowledge of how to do it. None of them have experience with success (and I mean actual success in relation to what we want) through the system elsewhere. Using a more "European" model or whatever sounds great but only if you really understand how and why it works - and are willing to adapt and iterate on it to make it a system for Bristol City, not a generic system you've cribbed from another club you like the look of hoping to replicate it's success.

If the rumours about managers being put off or turned away due to how the system works that raises a big red flag for me. They're valuable and intelligent people who should be used to adapt and improve our system rather than told to fit in with it 100% - and my guess is that's because the people at the top aren't approaching the "process" in the right way.

SL did reiterate in the summer that they wanted someone who did this…

[CodeRed]

23 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I think my main concern isn't so much the system, which others are very critical of, but rather the way it's implemented / people who are implementing it. I think the system is decent and could work.

I work in tech and see what I think is the problem all the time though - Spotify are a great example. They're a huge, successful company, and known for publicly giving loads of insight into how they're run. What happens is other tech companies see it and assume if they just lift and shift it into their own company they'll become more like Spotify, and thus more successful. Of course, they ignore that Spotify evolved their systems over years and years with some extremely smart people, so they have created a system that works for them. It's not a quick win tech company system, it's a Spotify system. When it's then just 1:1 copied, it pretty much never works the same somewhere else for that reason.

My concern is that with the Lansdowns and Ashton attempting to implement this system, none of them have the knowledge of how to do it. None of them have experience with success (and I mean actual success in relation to what we want) through the system elsewhere. Using a more "European" model or whatever sounds great but only if you really understand how and why it works - and are willing to adapt and iterate on it to make it a system for Bristol City, not a generic system you've cribbed from another club you like the look of hoping to replicate it's success.

If the rumours about managers being put off or turned away due to how the system works that raises a big red flag for me. They're valuable and intelligent people who should be used to adapt and improve our system rather than told to fit in with it 100% - and my guess is that's because the people at the top aren't approaching the "process" in the right way.

Excellent points,  If SL wants to emulate Barcelona !! (his words) then he needs to employ a DoF, and CEO who has implemented and built something from nothing at a European club if that's his goal. Not employ a chancer like Ashton and expect his son to oversee it all.

[The Constant Rabbit]

1 minute ago, CodeRed said:

Also the goalkeeper Zack Steffan that we were linked with several times before he joined MCFC is on their roster.

Although they are a very large agency with hundreds of players,  we have 6 players who have Wasserman as their agent - the same as Feyenoord,  Blackburn and Man City have 5, Leicester, Forest, and Derby 4, most clubs have some Wasserman players.  

Adam Nagy was said by someone on here to be on their books as well but he is not among their clients. Interestingly neither Gustav Engvall, Niclas Eliasson, or Lois Diony are on their books either.  So I'm not sure there's anything amiss.........and I'm someone who doesn't rate Ashton at all!

It's common for agents to work together, to share a client.

 This is a public list. Some players choose not to advertise who they are with.

To delve deeper, you'd need to follow a trail of a BS employee, and previous clubs, and the % of players who sign for the club with that person involved in transfers.

And then see who represents that person.

And yes, SL is fully aware of the 'connection'

@Harry has explained it much better than I - think 'analysts' 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, The Constant Rabbit said:

That list will also answer the Liam Walsh questions as well.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/liam-walsh/profil/spieler/314998

https://www.transfermarkt.com/eddie-howe/profil/trainer/10976

https://www.transfermarkt.com/adam-matthews/profil/spieler/108878

https://www.transfermarkt.com/joe-williams/profil/spieler/268185

https://www.transfermarkt.com/sam-baldock/profil/spieler/67211

https://www.transfermarkt.com/zak-vyner/profil/spieler/417955

https://www.transfermarkt.com/callum-odowda/profil/spieler/255679

https://www.transfermarkt.com/marlon-pack/profil/spieler/118779

The list goes on and on - all Wasserman, check the time periods.....

 

The point I was making earlier in this thread was that LJ was also Wasserman, so to lay it all at MA’s door is perhaps a bit unfair (and I have no time for MA btw).  Just very convenient across the board.

Plus plenty of players aren’t Wasserman too.  O’Dowda and Vyner are Wasserman by virtue of KSM being bought by Wasserman.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s no smoke without fire.

55 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

I think my main concern isn't so much the system, which others are very critical of, but rather the way it's implemented / people who are implementing it. I think the system is decent and could work.

I work in tech and see what I think is the problem all the time though - Spotify are a great example. They're a huge, successful company, and known for publicly giving loads of insight into how they're run. What happens is other tech companies see it and assume if they just lift and shift it into their own company they'll become more like Spotify, and thus more successful. Of course, they ignore that Spotify evolved their systems over years and years with some extremely smart people, so they have created a system that works for them. It's not a quick win tech company system, it's a Spotify system. When it's then just 1:1 copied, it pretty much never works the same somewhere else for that reason.

My concern is that with the Lansdowns and Ashton attempting to implement this system, none of them have the knowledge of how to do it. None of them have experience with success (and I mean actual success in relation to what we want) through the system elsewhere. Using a more "European" model or whatever sounds great but only if you really understand how and why it works - and are willing to adapt and iterate on it to make it a system for Bristol City, not a generic system you've cribbed from another club you like the look of hoping to replicate it's success.

If the rumours about managers being put off or turned away due to how the system works that raises a big red flag for me. They're valuable and intelligent people who should be used to adapt and improve our system rather than told to fit in with it 100% - and my guess is that's because the people at the top aren't approaching the "process" in the right way.

So true.

Similar concept to the posts about Dan Ashworth at BHA....the model is fine, but you’ve got to understand whether it’s possible to implement it at your club, and whether you’ve got the right people / skills to run it.

It’s an interesting comparison, because Dan Ashworth is the technical director, Paul Winstanley the Head of Recruitment.  Paul Barber is the CEO.

Who plays each role in our club?  One person!  Mark Ashton.

Who has allowed him to play this role? Steve Lansdown.  For all his success in business, does his lack of football knowledge make him a sucker for an Ashton-type?

[petehinton]

4 hours ago, Harry said:

 

Oh, McInnes had help with recruitment alright. 
I’ve said plenty of times on here, a certain Mr Ashton was in the building through 2012, helping our Derek with his latest list of drunks and injury prone has-beens in the likes of Davies & Pearson. 

In Ashton’s very slight defence, McWinless didn’t help himself by playing Stead and Chris Wood on the wings and Adomah as a lone striker 

[Dr Balls]

So can we expect Jack Wilshere appearing for us any time soon on that basis, given he is a Wasserman free agent? Daryl Janmaat anyone? Or even more realistically former Hull City defensive midfielder Kevin Stewart, who is also a free agent? How about former Leicester captain Andy King? You saw it here first! That said I would have preferred if we had kept Henriksen, who is now at Rosenberg.

Players have agents, I get that. And I get that the biggest agents are likely to have more players on their books. However it does look more than a bit suspicious if many of your recruits all come from the same agency. It’s not quite the Mendes situation with Wolves, who generally have more Portuguese players in their starting 11 than Benfica, but it doesn’t necessarily seem a completely open and healthy relationship if a club’s recruitment is so linked to just one agent.

[BS4 on Tour...]

4 hours ago, City oz said:

Agree on all of the above BS4. I was 5 years old and it was 1967 when my dad took me to Ashton gate. I still remember it well. I purched myself on the railing (the one that went from front to back) in the East End on the line of column 3. Great, great years with lots of memories and mostly good.

All the best for the new year 

Same to you Oz - hope 2021 is a good one for you 

[Tin Soldier]

On 30/12/2020 at 10:52, Davefevs said:

Indeed.

Although Hughton was my “boring” no1 choice, and I got behind Holden really early, the bloke I really was excited by was Cook.

My gut feeling was that he’d completely buy in to the club ethos, developing players, buying young players, etc.....so it is worrying that both Cook and Club didn’t suit each other.

I suspect the big stumbling block is control of recruitment.

The “big stumbling block” is Ashton who will not relinquish overall control of “policy” within the club. Until he goes, policy will never change. Despairing situation.

 

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

So can we expect Jack Wilshere appearing for us any time soon on that basis, given he is a Wasserman free agent? Daryl Janmaat anyone? Or even more realistically former Hull City defensive midfielder Kevin Stewart, who is also a free agent? How about former Leicester captain Andy King? You saw it here first! That said I would have preferred if we had kept Henriksen, who is now at Rosenberg.

Players have agents, I get that. And I get that the biggest agents are likely to have more players on their books. However it does look more than a bit suspicious if many of your recruits all come from the same agency. It’s not quite the Mendes situation with Wolves, who generally have more Portuguese players in their starting 11 than Benfica, but it doesn’t necessarily seem a completely open and healthy relationship if a club’s recruitment is so linked to just one agent.

I liked him too, had a bit of everything....inc attitude.  Shame we overplayed him whilst he was getting match fit.

[Mr Chappers]

6 hours ago, City oz said:

Don’t need a big name manager. The club needs a manager with big balls 

Buster Gonad?

[ZiderEyed]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The point I was making earlier in this thread was that LJ was also Wasserman, so to lay it all at MA’s door is perhaps a bit unfair (and I have no time for MA btw).  Just very convenient across the board.

Plus plenty of players aren’t Wasserman too.  O’Dowda and Vyner are Wasserman by virtue of KSM being bought by Wasserman.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s no smoke without fire.

So true.

Similar concept to the posts about Dan Ashworth at BHA....the model is fine, but you’ve got to understand whether it’s possible to implement it at your club, and whether you’ve got the right people / skills to run it.

It’s an interesting comparison, because Dan Ashworth is the technical director, Paul Winstanley the Head of Recruitment.  Paul Barber is the CEO.

Who plays each role in our club?  One person!  Mark Ashton.

Who has allowed him to play this role? Steve Lansdown.  For all his success in business, does his lack of football knowledge make him a sucker for an Ashton-type?

The difference too is that Ashworth is an incredibly respected coach and football man. Held roles as Academy Director and as Manager of youth sides, worked with Aidy Boothroyd at WBA and was the FA Technical Director before leaving for Brighton. 

Ashton is a **** in a shiny suit. 

 

Unfortunately, it seems like Lansdown has been duped, and is way too stubborn to change his mind - or even scarier - has bought MA's bullshit. 

[M.D]

7 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

The difference too is that Ashworth is an incredibly respected coach and football man. Held roles as Academy Director and as Manager of youth sides, worked with Aidy Boothroyd at WBA and was the FA Technical Director before leaving for Brighton. 

Ashton is a **** in a shiny suit. 

 

Unfortunately, it seems like Lansdown has been duped, and is way too stubborn to change his mind - or even scarier - has bought MA's bullshit. 

I totally agree and although a lot of Brighton fans are pointing a finger at Ashworth at the moment, as @Davefevs points out Ashworth doesn't have anywhere near the control that Ashton has although like With City and Lansdown, Bloom will have the final sign off.

[BigAl&Toby]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The point I was making earlier in this thread was that LJ was also Wasserman, so to lay it all at MA’s door is perhaps a bit unfair (and I have no time for MA btw).  Just very convenient across the board.

Plus plenty of players aren’t Wasserman too.  O’Dowda and Vyner are Wasserman by virtue of KSM being bought by Wasserman.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s no smoke without fire.

So true.

Similar concept to the posts about Dan Ashworth at BHA....the model is fine, but you’ve got to understand whether it’s possible to implement it at your club, and whether you’ve got the right people / skills to run it.

It’s an interesting comparison, because Dan Ashworth is the technical director, Paul Winstanley the Head of Recruitment.  Paul Barber is the CEO.

Who plays each role in our club?  One person!  Mark Ashton.

Who has allowed him to play this role? Steve Lansdown.  For all his success in business, does his lack of football knowledge make him a sucker for an Ashton-type?

You ask a very interesting question @Davefevsand one that I’ll have a stab at answering.

it has to be a massive yes. Lansdown might well be a sucker for an Ashton-type - and there are a number of puerile comments I could make about Steve, Mark and suckers - but here’s one that for me is a real concern.

Would Lansdown put up with such poor performances in the shiny office not far from the Black Horse’s stable? If week in week out fund managers were spunking clients’ funds up the wall?

I doubt it. They’d be gone no sooner than I could type - again - that the emperor is naked.......

And yet over at BS3 Stevie seems content to let Ashton do exactly the same. Now why might that be....

Perhaps it’s an acceptable consequence of Stevie’s “investment”. Forget FFP and selling to balance the books. Forget the dream of the Promised Land. 

Maybe a year on year cumulative loss for the myriad of offshore based companies is a suitable tax deduction that Stevie, Maggie and Jon are able, prepared and actually want to stomach.

After all a loss is a loss. Particularly where the overall value of the total investment - not in Bristol City Football Club - the one and only thing I care about - continues to grow.

As you said Dave how can such a successful businessman get it all so badly wrong on the footballing front?

Like the good old days at Mangotsfield and Bris when the “men with the money”, fat cigars, curly hair and their Mercedes turned up and “splashed their cash”. For a while....

[BigAl&Toby]

21 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Cooper, Jordan then possibly Ward and GJ. To that I would add Dennis Smith if he had been given more time.

I would turn the question around and ask, How many high profile managers have we appointed since.......forever. As a club we have always (in my lifetime 58 yrs) taken the safe option (apart from Benny, and look how that turned out).

@Sir Geoff I’d agree with that list - and Denis Smith. I asked decent not high profile.

A blind man could see that Terry Cooper and Joe Jordan were men who wanted it. Really wanted it.

Ward was a decent bloke and under GJ we achieved some success that sadly wasn’t sustained or quite enough.

I’m not after a profile manager or “name”. Just someone who’s able to do the job. Someone who knows what they want and how to go about getting it.

The thing is I’m not certain that what I want is the same as Stevie. Perhaps that’s why he appoints those who appear to be from exactly the same mould. 

Or perhaps Stevie is happy to have the likes of LJ & DH and years of promise and unfulfilled dreams and potential. Who knows.......

[Sir Geoff]

I too would love us to appoint someone who knows what they want and knows how to go about getting it. My reference to 'High Profile' is something we have always lacked which is why we are always second best on the football'map' (little Bristol City). Too late now as his profile (and wage !!) have risen considerably but Moyes has always struck me as someone during his lower moments that we could have gone for and would have been a good fit.