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IGNORED

Others on the short list July / August this year for head coach at BCFC.


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2 hours ago, BigAl&Toby said:

You ask a very interesting question @Davefevsand one that I’ll have a stab at answering.

it has to be a massive yes. Lansdown might well be a sucker for an Ashton-type - and there are a number of puerile comments I could make about Steve, Mark and suckers - but here’s one that for me is a real concern.

Would Lansdown put up with such poor performances in the shiny office not far from the Black Horse’s stable? If week in week out fund managers were spunking clients’ funds up the wall?

I doubt it. They’d be gone no sooner than I could type - again - that the emperor is naked.......

And yet over at BS3 Stevie seems content to let Ashton do exactly the same. Now why might that be....

Perhaps it’s an acceptable consequence of Stevie’s “investment”. Forget FFP and selling to balance the books. Forget the dream of the Promised Land. 

Maybe a year on year cumulative loss for the myriad of offshore based companies is a suitable tax deduction that Stevie, Maggie and Jon are able, prepared and actually want to stomach.

After all a loss is a loss. Particularly where the overall value of the total investment - not in Bristol City Football Club - the one and only thing I care about - continues to grow.

As you said Dave how can such a successful businessman get it all so badly wrong on the footballing front?

Like the good old days at Mangotsfield and Bris when the “men with the money”, fat cigars, curly hair and their Mercedes turned up and “splashed their cash”. For a while....

Don’t get me wrong I appreciate what SL has done, but like you, I understand that the £150m he’s pumped in isn’t a donation out of the goodness of his heart either.  We could certainly have worse owners, but we could also have better too from a football-savvy point of view.

We aren’t even sustainable!  We comply with FFP, but we’ve allowed a cost base to grow that means selling players.  Each season we have to sell more (players or £s) to comply.  Guess what?  The player gravy train has congealed!

Many years ago (Rovers haters scroll on by) I was quite jealous of how Rovers kept finding players, polishing them, selling them on, competing on a budget.  But in the back of my mind, I always wondered what would happen if they stopped finding them (which happened), or the transfer market changed, (which it did with clubs looking abroad).  They then dropped out of the league and have done well to come back.

We are in a similar position to some extent, part Covid, part poor recruitment.  Saturday evening after Brentford may bring some true reflection of how little we’ve progressed, even with some highlights.

As for your final para.....I left Bris before one of them arrived.

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4 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

I too would love us to appoint someone who knows what they want and knows how to go about getting it. My reference to 'High Profile' is something we have always lacked which is why we are always second best on the football'map' (little Bristol City). Too late now as his profile (and wage !!) have risen considerably but Moyes has always struck me as someone during his lower moments that we could have gone for and would have been a good fit.

Have you forgotten Coppell? He was quite high profile- successful player in his day and them multiple promotions to the PL.

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On 31/12/2020 at 11:14, IAmNick said:

I think my main concern isn't so much the system, which others are very critical of, but rather the way it's implemented / people who are implementing it. I think the system is decent and could work.

I work in tech and see what I think is the problem all the time though - Spotify are a great example. They're a huge, successful company, and known for publicly giving loads of insight into how they're run. What happens is other tech companies see it and assume if they just lift and shift it into their own company they'll become more like Spotify, and thus more successful. Of course, they ignore that Spotify evolved their systems over years and years with some extremely smart people, so they have created a system that works for them. It's not a quick win tech company system, it's a Spotify system. When it's then just 1:1 copied, it pretty much never works the same somewhere else for that reason.

My concern is that with the Lansdowns and Ashton attempting to implement this system, none of them have the knowledge of how to do it. None of them have experience with success (and I mean actual success in relation to what we want) through the system elsewhere. Using a more "European" model or whatever sounds great but only if you really understand how and why it works - and are willing to adapt and iterate on it to make it a system for Bristol City, not a generic system you've cribbed from another club you like the look of hoping to replicate it's success.

If the rumours about managers being put off or turned away due to how the system works that raises a big red flag for me. They're valuable and intelligent people who should be used to adapt and improve our system rather than told to fit in with it 100% - and my guess is that's because the people at the top aren't approaching the "process" in the right way.

This is a totally excellent thread.

and makes for very interesting reading.

I wouldn’t like to comment on the why’s and wherefore’s of Mr Steve Lansdowns financial affairs, but he is a tax resident of Guernsey for a reason.

To be quite blunt, everything about BCFC is mediocre. Not just in championship terms. But in football terms. We’re punching well above our weight. Some of the stuff is completely amateur. It’s actually bordering on the pathetic.

That Mark Ashton can spin silk out of hessian sacks - he’s the master of bull and Geoff Twentyman has his number 😂.

Ashton Gate has zero soul. I find it like being at a church. Every successful CEO builds a temple to their business. AG is SL’s temple.

When you look at some clubs who’ve gone past us, you have to think what is Lansdown DOING? 

He’s undoubtably a very clever man. I just wish he would tell us the truth, instead of spinning us the line of “we want to be in the premier league”. Well do we Steve? Or are you happy treading water in the Championship, because that’s what it FEELS LIKE TO ME.

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Have to agree Dave , On one hand SL provides the financial stability and has/is building the infrastructure around the club , yet on the other I think he is holding the club back from making real progress with constant lousy footballing decisions .

If Cardiff , under the much ridiculed Vincent Tan can reach the prem twice plus an FA Cup final and Swansea can do similar and both are same sized  clubs in my opinion as us  ,what does that say for SL’s reign of 24 years where we came close once ?

Even the likes of Swindon ,Wigan , Blackpool etc have achieved more......!

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5 hours ago, DaveInSA said:

 

This is a totally excellent thread.

and makes for very interesting reading.

I wouldn’t like to comment on the why’s and wherefore’s of Mr Steve Lansdowns financial affairs, but he is a tax resident of Guernsey for a reason.

To be quite blunt, everything about BCFC is mediocre. Not just in championship terms. But in football terms. We’re punching well above our weight. Some of the stuff is completely amateur. It’s actually bordering on the pathetic.

That Mark Ashton can spin silk out of hessian sacks - he’s the master of bull and Geoff Twentyman has his number 😂.

Ashton Gate has zero soul. I find it like being at a church. Every successful CEO builds a temple to their business. AG is SL’s temple.

When you look at some clubs who’ve gone past us, you have to think what is Lansdown DOING? 

He’s undoubtably a very clever man. I just wish he would tell us the truth, instead of spinning us the line of “we want to be in the premier league”. Well do we Steve? Or are you happy treading water in the Championship, because that’s what it FEELS LIKE TO ME.

What do you suggest then?

Remember we need to trade, £39m loss limits, Parachute Payments- EFL soft sanctions that come into play before any FFP itself.

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4 hours ago, Bristolbarhopper said:

Have to agree Dave , On one hand SL provides the financial stability and has/is building the infrastructure around the club , yet on the other I think he is holding the club back from making real progress with constant lousy footballing decisions .

If Cardiff , under the much ridiculed Vincent Tan can reach the prem twice plus an FA Cup final and Swansea can do similar and both are same sized  clubs in my opinion as us  ,what does that say for SL’s reign of 24 years where we came close once ?

Even the likes of Swindon ,Wigan , Blackpool etc have achieved more......!

All under different regulations, Swansea had a unique model, Blackpool got on a roll.

No direct replications possible here probably. The big time to go for it might have been January 2008.

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On 30/12/2020 at 10:55, Phileas Fogg said:

Me too. If you know who to read on here, as you do, it's pretty clear from their posts that there's an issue with recruitment and buying from preferred agents/management companies. 

My guess would be that Hughton assumed, perhaps understandably, his record might speak for itself if the rumours are true about lack of interview substance. I imagine people at the club wanted him to 'know the club', perhaps to massage the egos of the board to a degree. 

He probably wanted full autonomy of recruitment too, again understandable.

I think based on this thread it's likely that it was a similar situation with Cook with recruitment. I can imagine him buying into the rest of the club's ethos though. 

Edit, saw your later post.

Yes Cook would have been well versed in player trading- Hughton possibly not so much.

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On 31/12/2020 at 17:23, BigAl&Toby said:

You ask a very interesting question @Davefevsand one that I’ll have a stab at answering.

it has to be a massive yes. Lansdown might well be a sucker for an Ashton-type - and there are a number of puerile comments I could make about Steve, Mark and suckers - but here’s one that for me is a real concern.

Would Lansdown put up with such poor performances in the shiny office not far from the Black Horse’s stable? If week in week out fund managers were spunking clients’ funds up the wall?

I doubt it. They’d be gone no sooner than I could type - again - that the emperor is naked.......

And yet over at BS3 Stevie seems content to let Ashton do exactly the same. Now why might that be....

Perhaps it’s an acceptable consequence of Stevie’s “investment”. Forget FFP and selling to balance the books. Forget the dream of the Promised Land. 

Maybe a year on year cumulative loss for the myriad of offshore based companies is a suitable tax deduction that Stevie, Maggie and Jon are able, prepared and actually want to stomach.

After all a loss is a loss. Particularly where the overall value of the total investment - not in Bristol City Football Club - the one and only thing I care about - continues to grow.

As you said Dave how can such a successful businessman get it all so badly wrong on the footballing front?

Like the good old days at Mangotsfield and Bris when the “men with the money”, fat cigars, curly hair and their Mercedes turned up and “splashed their cash”. For a while....

What's the difference then between tax recoverable vs losses? As in what % of loss clawback through Pula minus subsidy of losses here (and potentially the other sports club).

In the long run he might be in profit, but until such time as that gain is realised, surely it is an unrealised gain.

Surely he has spent at this time- paper gains or future gains maybe different- but as we stand on 1st January 2021, he has spent more than he has gained/received?

I use the term 'spent' as a lot of owners make their payments in loans. Accounts would doubtless reveal.

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On 31/12/2020 at 09:51, The Constant Rabbit said:

Is that so uncommon in football however?

Wolves and Mendes, Laudrup's agent and Swansea for a time, to name two. There are probably plenty of examples out there.

Some players are good, some are injured, one is through our academy- what % hit rate is acceptable basically? Personally speaking, I don't care how players etc are sourced- I'm fairly pragmatic in that sense, could do with a higher hit rate though and less injury prone ones!

One other curious theme- but this could be a red herring of course? I notice we seem to recruit in batches, at times.

Kalas, DaSilva, Palmer- Chelsea. Loans 2018, made permanent a year on.

Weimann in 2018 and Martin in 2020- Derby- latter on a free.

Sessegnon and Mawson- Fulham.

Is this an irrelevance though?

Finally, talking of Wasserman- I thought that agency sounded familiar and I guess it's a well known agency- I note that Mel Morris at Derby sacked and latterly instigated legal action vs Sam Rush.

Red herring possibly, but guess which agency the latter was with?

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On 01/01/2021 at 17:25, Mr Popodopolous said:

What do you suggest then?

Remember we need to trade, £39m loss limits, Parachute Payments- EFL soft sanctions that come into play before any FFP itself.

I’ve been thinking about this 🙂

Our current approach feels shotgun. Scattered. All over the place.

I’d like us to create our own model. The Bristol City model.

Ashton is a wheeler dealer, but he’s not a football expert. We desperately need that at the club.

Someone who can set the strategy up and implement the roadmap. But it must be the BCFC roadmap, taking into account our current state and what we have to work with. It’s pointless throwing the baby out with the bath water. But clearly some things are not right.

1) I don’t think the head coach is the right guy.

2) I don’t think our players are good enough.

3) I don’t think Ashton Gate is a fortress.

4) I don’t think the mindset is right. 

These are FUNDAMENTALS.

You can set all the targets you want. Two goals a game etc etc. But without some solid foundations in place it’s like building a house on blancmange.

So get a football expert in as CEO. Set the strategy. Get the fundamentals in place. And deliver some fun.

Until there’s fun i won’t go. I don’t really care about the results, save to say unless relegation is on the cards.

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19 minutes ago, DaveInSA said:

I’ve been thinking about this 🙂

Our current approach feels shotgun. Scattered. All over the place.

I’d like us to create our own model. The Bristol City model.

Ashton is a wheeler dealer, but he’s not a football expert. We desperately need that at the club.

Someone who can set the strategy up and implement the roadmap. But it must be the BCFC roadmap, taking into account our current state and what we have to work with. It’s pointless throwing the baby out with the bath water. But clearly some things are not right.

1) I don’t think the head coach is the right guy.

2) I don’t think our players are good enough.

3) I don’t think Ashton Gate is a fortress.

4) I don’t think the mindset is right. 

These are FUNDAMENTALS.

You can set all the targets you want. Two goals a game etc etc. But without some solid foundations in place it’s like building a house on blancmange.

So get a football expert in as CEO. Set the strategy. Get the fundamentals in place. And deliver some fun.

Until there’s fun i won’t go. I don’t really care about the results, save to say unless relegation is on the cards.

Coupled with the new thread I’ve just posted I started to write this today.  Here’s where I got to:

Talent ID under Mark Ashton

 

Mark Ashton officially joined Bristol City in Jan 2016 as Chief Operating Officer (COO) although in time that role changed to Chief Executive Officer (CEO).  A one letter difference in acronym but a different role where one helps define the strategy with the Board of Directors (of which he is also a Director) whereas one is responsible for implementing / operationalising the strategy.  Within his remit is Recruitment or Talent Identification.  The true structure of that team is unknown, but the likes of Chief Scout Mervyn Day have left and not been replaced, or at least the question has been asked but never answered.

 

Ashton had previously provided consultancy to the club in 2012 whilst Derek McInnes was head-coach.

 

Under the next head-coach Sean O’Driscoll, who’d been at Nottingham Forest, a new Chief Scout was brought in – Keith Burt, who’d been at Forest with O’Driscoll.

 

Although O’Driscoll was replaced by Steve Cotterill in December 2013, Burt remained and Keith Dawe and Jon Lansdown gave Burt the role of Director of Football (DoF) and increased responsibilities in recruitment that both of them had previously undertaken, e.g., budget and contracts.

 

It is fair to say that O’Driscoll and Burt laid some excellent footballing foundations, and although the team struggled in 2013/14, the head-coach and DoF improved the playing squad on a small budget.  The following players were recruited either permanently or on loan:

 

·      Aden Flint (23) – circa £300k

·      Marlon Pack (22) – circa £100k

·      Lewis Dunk (21) – loan

·      Derrick Williams (20) – free

·      Scott Wagstaff (23) – free

·      Frank Fielding (25) – circa £200k

·      Jay Emmanuel-Thomas (22) – undisc.

 

This was achieved by clearing out several high earners from the previous season’s relegated squad.

 

Not every player brought in was a success, but nor was a transfer fee paid either, utilising the loan or free transfer market to bring in players.  Dunk unfortunately only made 3 appearances before injury, but he has gone on to prove it was a good spot as he has gone on to make over 100 appearances in the Premier League and even gained an England cap.

 

Steve Cotterill arrived in December 2013 with City in the bottom 4, but her steered the club to mid-table with ease, utilising the loan market well, bringing in the likes of Nyron Nosworthy (33) and Wade Elliott (35).

 

But it was the summer of 2014 where Cotterill and Burt really built upon O’Driscoll and Burt’s foundations when they brought in the following players who helped City win the league and cup double:

 

·      Wade Elliott (35) – free

·      Mark Little (25) – free

·      Aaron Wilbraham (34) – free

·      Luke Freeman (22) – undisc. But rumours circa £500k

·      Luke Ayling (22) – undisc. But rumours circa £400k

·      Korey Smith (23) – undisc. But rumours circa £750k (although Liam Kelly offset £250k of that in a part-exchange deal

 

Sam Baldock was sold a couple of games into the season for circa £2m and that helped fund:

 

·      Kieran Agard (24) - £850k

 

Cotterill and Burt brought in loans to cover injuries and provide a bit of depth, but those 7 signings plus Fielding, Flint, Williams, Pack and Emmanuel-Thomas was the core of the side that lined-up most weeks in an attacking 5212/3412.  The only regular that came from outside of the two season’s recruits was Academy prospect Joe Bryan, who kept Greg Cunningham out of the side.

 

Fielding

Little | Ayling | Flint | Williams | Bryan

Elliott (Pack) | Smith

Freeman

Wilbraham | Agard (Emmanuel-Thomas)

 

You can then add in loans:

 

·      Matt Smith (25) to cover Wilbraham

·      Todd Kane (21) to cover Little pre-Xmas

·      James Tavernier (23) to cover Little post-Xmas

·      George Saville (21) to cover midfield

 

When you look at the squad plus loanees above its an impressive set of recruits, all of the under 30s have had longevity in the Championship and in the case of Ayling, Bryan and Freeman have also played Premier League.

 

Moving into 2015/16 with City back in the Championship, Cotterill cut a frustrated figure during the summer with recruitment not going to plan, but the eye for a player was there.  Rumoured attempts to sign Andre Gray and Harry Maguire didn’t materialise leading to a late bid for Dwight Gayle, but still City landed:

 

·      Jonathan Kodjia (25) - £2.5m

·      Ryan Fredericks (22) - £250k

 

Supplemented by loans of:

 

·      Elliott Bennett (26) following Fredericks brief spell here

·      Nathan Baker (24)

·      Ben Hamer (27)

·      Callum Robinson (20)

·      Simon Cox (28)

·      Liam Moore (22)

 

There were criticisms from fans that Robinson and Cox didn’t play but it’s hard to look at the list and criticise the quality of recruits beyond those two.

 

Cotterill was sacked in January and assistant-manager John Pemberton appointed as Caretaker until Lee Johnson was brought in.  Keith Burt was still DoF until March 2016 when he was sacked along with Paul Groves (u23 Manager).

 

At the point of the summer 2016 transfer window, we are fully under the remit of Mark Ashton’s Recruitment team and Lee Johnson as head-coach.  So, let’s look at every first team signing made since, and reference a few signed for the future.  Transfer fees quoted will be best estimates where they were undisclosed.  I’ll also subjectively evaluate each from a lens of contribution of performance, value and eye for a player

 

Summer 2016:

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On 31/12/2020 at 03:56, Curr Avon said:

McInnes was hamstrung by a 50% cut to his playing budget which meant that we failed to secure a decent centre back. That, combined with the loss of Kalifa Cisse accelerated the decline from the 2011/12 season.

 

Good point.

In our early goal filled games in 2012/13, we were approaching the deadline- an experienced CB was what we needed. We were linked with Monk on loan- maybe things play out quite differently if we get him?

Cisse in front of the back 4 was also quite important- disciplined and competent in possession.

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On 31/12/2020 at 08:19, Harry said:

 

Oh, McInnes had help with recruitment alright. 
I’ve said plenty of times on here, a certain Mr Ashton was in the building through 2012, helping our Derek with his latest list of drunks and injury prone has-beens in the likes of Davies & Pearson. 

Steven Davies? 13 goals in 35 games for a side who finished bottom isn't too bad.

Pearson had early moments but seemed to get worse IIRC?

Davies though, was only 24 when we signed him- has been already?

Neil Danns was not bad loan signing, shame we couldn't keep him for longer tbh- Ashton or McInnes?

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On 30/12/2020 at 21:23, The Constant Rabbit said:

Flynn was also definately interviewed.

Via conference , then in person. 

You would assume he would have jumped at the chance to join a championship club. There must have been other reasons as to why he did not choose to attend the next round of interviews, leaving Hughton and Holden as the only 2.

Then no Hughton.

There is only one reason why Cook, Flynn and Hughton would not accept / pursue further the position (and it isn't salary) - and that would be the conditions put in place by THE OWNER that they would have to work under.

One of which, was severe limitations on the autonomy of the role, regarding transfers.

Very high source.

There's possibly two ways to take this.

Conditions by owner...Could you specify whether you mean all the stuff you have subsequently written about the agency beginning with W.

Or.

Transfer and wage budget that we can offer a new manager in summer 2020.

Because if it is the latter, it is possible that managers might need to realign their expectations with respect to what might be possible in the current climate- at our level certainly. Might also add, do we know we as a club are not working under any budgetary limitations EFL or self-imposed to avoid falling into that scenario? If that is the case then again, our hands are tied at club level. If it's the case of the agency beginning with W, then I can see why managers would not be keen- albeit utilising favoured suppliers/contacts, it's not without success in football. Not without failure either of course!

If they want a budget like normal times (this is of course nothing to do with salary), there are two big problems with that, here- or were in summer 2020 as I see it:

  1. Covid.
  2. Our possible financial position which is unclear but I have the feeling that constraints for 2020/21 might be necessary to some extent. Might even be imposed if we had a big enough loss last season! 😱 EFL have ongoing monitoring and powers to intervene or 'advise' in this respect- especially if it's a rapid escalation- worth reading it in depth, if you haven't already.

If two was a factor, let alone one- then no we could not have offered them a big fee/wage budget? Intervention from a financial POV would have been inevitable, necessary even.

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31 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Steven Davies? 13 goals in 35 games for a side who finished bottom isn't too bad.

Pearson had early moments but seemed to get worse IIRC?

Davies though, was only 24 when we signed him- has been already?

Neil Danns was not bad loan signing, shame we couldn't keep him for longer tbh- Ashton or McInnes?

I never said Davies was a has-been. 
I said drunks and injury prone has beens. 
The latter (injury prone has been) referred to Pearson. The former, well, not for me to say ....

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1 minute ago, Harry said:

I never said Davies was a has-been. 
I said drunks and injury prone has beens. 
The latter (injury prone has been) referred to Pearson. The former, well, not for me to say ....

Fair enough, misunderstood! Okay- yes well I'm none the wiser on Davies, save for what's on here- thought he had a reasonable amount of ability though, Pearson? Had some moments when on loan, never really materialised permanently.

Think Danns was reasonable, or maybe compared to our standard at the time?

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25 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Good point.

In our early goal filled games in 2012/13, we were approaching the deadline- an experienced CB was what we needed. We were linked with Monk on loan- maybe things play out quite differently if we get him?

Cisse in front of the back 4 was also quite important- disciplined and competent in possession.

City tried to sign the Cardiff City centre back (and cousin of Stephen) Anthony Gerrard; https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/cardiff-city-turn-down-leicester-2056743, who instead chose Huddersfield Town; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Gerrard.

Here's a great post from @Olé (two lumps of coal this Christmas please, Rob!) dated 11 February 2016, with an extract from a Times interview with McInnes about his time with City; 

 

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1 minute ago, Curr Avon said:

City tried to sign the Cardiff City centre back (and cousin of Stephen) Anthony Gerrard; https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/cardiff-city-turn-down-leicester-2056743, who instead chose Huddersfield Town; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Gerrard.

Here's a great post from @Olé (two lumps of coal this Christmas please, Rob!) dated 11 February 2016, with an extract from a Times interview with McInnes about his time with City; 

 

I definitely remember a loan move for Monk too, sure of it?

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/swansea-city-captain-garry-monk-2026346

Thanks will have a read of that later. Vaguely remember hearing his budget was slashed.

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24 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

City tried to sign the Cardiff City centre back (and cousin of Stephen) Anthony Gerrard; https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/cardiff-city-turn-down-leicester-2056743, who instead chose Huddersfield Town; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Gerrard.

Here's a great post from @Olé (two lumps of coal this Christmas please, Rob!) dated 11 February 2016, with an extract from a Times interview with McInnes about his time with City; 

 

Ha ha. Brilliant. 
I must’ve missed that thread at the time, but the one thing any replies failed to mention was - who was in charge of the piss-poor recruitment through 2012 for our Del? 
I’ll give a clue - he’s still running the piss-poor recruitment now. 

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4 minutes ago, Harry said:

Ha ha. Brilliant. 
I must’ve missed that thread at the time, but the one thing any replies failed to mention was - who was in charge of the piss-poor recruitment through 2012 for our Del? 
I’ll give a clue - he’s still running the piss-poor recruitment now. 

Came across this article too, by Mark Wilson- that I posted in fact. From that thread- the following snippet was interesting.

Quote

“At Bristol City, he was at the wrong club at the wrong time,” he said. “They were a shambles. I don’t know if he’s come out and said it, but everyone who was at the club then knew it was.

Not wrong, back then!

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Critics of the Wasserman approach. It's yielded I think it would be fair to say hit and miss results- and injured players too!

However could we start to see a payoff?

A quick search suggests that Ben Pearson- out of contract this summer- is represented by Wasserman- Preston have long had a better midfield than their budget should suggest, Pearson-Browne-Johnson....good stuff but the first of those is represented by...Wasserman.

Two other notables are Waghorn and Sammy Ameobi though less keen on those two. Both past their best?

It's unsavoury like elements of the Industry, but keeping these types sweet is quite important- sometimes you might have to take on a poorer or aging player, or need to but could one of the stronger ones- speaking about Pearson- be pushed our way? Have to play the game sometimes.

Like I say we've had mixed, hit and miss outcomes but hope a payoff might head our way...clearly up to the player ultimately but advice?

In the event he was keen here, might he not seek to bring some of his mates- perm any of Davies, Browne, Johnson- and possibly if we're looking for two right backs as we could be this summer, Fisher for relatively cheap depth.

Pearson is the only Wasserman client of those 5 incidentally, but I wonder if we could start to see any kind of payoff.

Few more useful players in 2022 out of contract, on their books. Matty James is one- he's gone to Coventry on loan but 29 feels a peak age, surely a bit of a loss for Barnsley? Seen it suggested Barnsley couldn't afford his wages- but we could!

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On 31/12/2020 at 01:59, fgrsimon said:

Derek McInness is perhaps the one appointment that should have worked a lot better than it did? A dynamic, young ambitious manager who had at least some management experience at a decent level (yeah Scotland but...) and he's certainly done well since, Aberdeen are never going to consisently challenge the big 2 but he consistently gets them to 3rd place, or 2nd when Rangers were out of the picture and even won the League cup.

First season he did well to keep us up but second season was a disaster. What went wrong?

He got hooped by injuries to defenders. I think he must have killed several black cats. Started the second season on fire. Hammered Palace and Cardiff. Injuries started, confidence lost, dodgy loan signings and he was gone. Never got a chance to stabilise 

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10 minutes ago, harvey54 said:

He got hooped by injuries to defenders. I think he must have killed several black cats. Started the second season on fire. Hammered Palace and Cardiff. Injuries started, confidence lost, dodgy loan signings and he was gone. Never got a chance to stabilise 

It all started with Greg Cunningham who had been superb getting crocked at Posh and missing most of the season - wasn`t it Mark Little who did him?

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On 03/01/2021 at 17:58, Davefevs said:

Coupled with the new thread I’ve just posted I started to write this today.  Here’s where I got to:

 

Talent ID under Mark Ashton

 

Mark Ashton officially joined Bristol City in Jan 2016 as Chief Operating Officer (COO) although in time that role changed to Chief Executive Officer (CEO).  A one letter difference in acronym but a different role where one helps define the strategy with the Board of Directors (of which he is also a Director) whereas one is responsible for implementing / operationalising the strategy.  Within his remit is Recruitment or Talent Identification.  The true structure of that team is unknown, but the likes of Chief Scout Mervyn Day have left and not been replaced, or at least the question has been asked but never answered.

 

Ashton had previously provided consultancy to the club in 2012 whilst Derek McInnes was head-coach.

 

Under the next head-coach Sean O’Driscoll, who’d been at Nottingham Forest, a new Chief Scout was brought in – Keith Burt, who’d been at Forest with O’Driscoll.

 

Although O’Driscoll was replaced by Steve Cotterill in December 2013, Burt remained and Keith Dawe and Jon Lansdown gave Burt the role of Director of Football (DoF) and increased responsibilities in recruitment that both of them had previously undertaken, e.g., budget and contracts.

 

It is fair to say that O’Driscoll and Burt laid some excellent footballing foundations, and although the team struggled in 2013/14, the head-coach and DoF improved the playing squad on a small budget.  The following players were recruited either permanently or on loan:

 

·      Aden Flint (23) – circa £300k

·      Marlon Pack (22) – circa £100k

·      Lewis Dunk (21) – loan

·      Derrick Williams (20) – free

·      Scott Wagstaff (23) – free

·      Frank Fielding (25) – circa £200k

·      Jay Emmanuel-Thomas (22) – undisc.

 

This was achieved by clearing out several high earners from the previous season’s relegated squad.

 

Not every player brought in was a success, but nor was a transfer fee paid either, utilising the loan or free transfer market to bring in players.  Dunk unfortunately only made 3 appearances before injury, but he has gone on to prove it was a good spot as he has gone on to make over 100 appearances in the Premier League and even gained an England cap.

 

Steve Cotterill arrived in December 2013 with City in the bottom 4, but her steered the club to mid-table with ease, utilising the loan market well, bringing in the likes of Nyron Nosworthy (33) and Wade Elliott (35).

 

But it was the summer of 2014 where Cotterill and Burt really built upon O’Driscoll and Burt’s foundations when they brought in the following players who helped City win the league and cup double:

 

·      Wade Elliott (35) – free

·      Mark Little (25) – free

·      Aaron Wilbraham (34) – free

·      Luke Freeman (22) – undisc. But rumours circa £500k

·      Luke Ayling (22) – undisc. But rumours circa £400k

·      Korey Smith (23) – undisc. But rumours circa £750k (although Liam Kelly offset £250k of that in a part-exchange deal

 

Sam Baldock was sold a couple of games into the season for circa £2m and that helped fund:

 

·      Kieran Agard (24) - £850k

 

Cotterill and Burt brought in loans to cover injuries and provide a bit of depth, but those 7 signings plus Fielding, Flint, Williams, Pack and Emmanuel-Thomas was the core of the side that lined-up most weeks in an attacking 5212/3412.  The only regular that came from outside of the two season’s recruits was Academy prospect Joe Bryan, who kept Greg Cunningham out of the side.

 

Fielding

Little | Ayling | Flint | Williams | Bryan

Elliott (Pack) | Smith

Freeman

Wilbraham | Agard (Emmanuel-Thomas)

 

You can then add in loans:

 

·      Matt Smith (25) to cover Wilbraham

·      Todd Kane (21) to cover Little pre-Xmas

·      James Tavernier (23) to cover Little post-Xmas

·      George Saville (21) to cover midfield

 

When you look at the squad plus loanees above its an impressive set of recruits, all of the under 30s have had longevity in the Championship and in the case of Ayling, Bryan and Freeman have also played Premier League.

 

Moving into 2015/16 with City back in the Championship, Cotterill cut a frustrated figure during the summer with recruitment not going to plan, but the eye for a player was there.  Rumoured attempts to sign Andre Gray and Harry Maguire didn’t materialise leading to a late bid for Dwight Gayle, but still City landed:

 

·      Jonathan Kodjia (25) - £2.5m

·      Ryan Fredericks (22) - £250k

 

Supplemented by loans of:

 

·      Elliott Bennett (26) following Fredericks brief spell here

·      Nathan Baker (24)

·      Ben Hamer (27)

·      Callum Robinson (20)

·      Simon Cox (28)

·      Liam Moore (22)

 

There were criticisms from fans that Robinson and Cox didn’t play but it’s hard to look at the list and criticise the quality of recruits beyond those two.

 

Cotterill was sacked in January and assistant-manager John Pemberton appointed as Caretaker until Lee Johnson was brought in.  Keith Burt was still DoF until March 2016 when he was sacked along with Paul Groves (u23 Manager).

 

At the point of the summer 2016 transfer window, we are fully under the remit of Mark Ashton’s Recruitment team and Lee Johnson as head-coach.  So, let’s look at every first team signing made since, and reference a few signed for the future.  Transfer fees quoted will be best estimates where they were undisclosed.  I’ll also subjectively evaluate each from a lens of contribution of performance, value and eye for a player

 

Summer 2016:

Is the rest of this coming? Interesting reading, cheers

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Might as well ask @The Constant Rabbit the q.

You mentioned Wasserman- do you think if there is some kind of strategy/tieup there to some extent, that it will start to pay off?

4 players- some A list, others perhaps B list:

Pearson- out of contract this summer. Matty James summer 2022 and has been solid at Barnsley.

B-List- yes one is prone to a red card, one is maybe pushing past his best a bit- Waghorn and Sammy Ameobi.

In the PL- Lundstram at Sheffield United...Martin Kelly at Crystal Palace too.

Do you think Wasserman will start to push some of these shall we say younger, or less injury prone players towards us? Thinking that a club sometimes has to play the game and maybe it could start to pay off.

Three more- Andre Gray, Bidwell and a certain Marlon Pack. 2022.

Two for PL- Forshaw and Jordan Ayew- 2022.

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On 03/01/2021 at 09:58, Davefevs said:

At the point of the summer 2016 transfer window, we are fully under the remit of Mark Ashton’s Recruitment team and Lee Johnson as head-coach.  So, let’s look at every first team signing made since, and reference a few signed for the future.  Transfer fees quoted will be best estimates where they were undisclosed.  I’ll also subjectively evaluate each from a lens of contribution of performance, value and eye for a player

 

Summer 2016:

Is there a 2016 bit that I missed - enjoyed the analysis of pre-2016.

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17 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

Is there a 2016 bit that I missed - enjoyed the analysis of pre-2016.

No, I stopped writing the word doc at that point and did a recruitment thread.  I then saw a post in this thread and copy and pasted the bit from the word doc.

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