Could history repeat itself?

[Mr Chappers]

3 hours ago, mozo said:

The thing with Holden is, whether we trust him or not, we all know he hasn't had a normal season, 1. Due to crazy injuries, 2. Due to Covid. 

We can't possibly blame him for our plight, even if we have some strong reservations about his tactics, line ups, Diedhiou and interviews!

Because the response will point to injuries and setbacks out of his control.

So we're stuck. It's looking like a disappointing season all round and yet we can't even make strong judgements about it, which will be really frustrating. 

Come what may (relegation aside), Holden would have legitimate grounds for a second season. In which case, we can't truly assess him until late Autumn at the earliest. 

Lansdown won't support upheaval unless he really has to, so I think we need to lower our expectations, restrain our frustrations and buckle down for a difficult 2021.

Happy New Year! 

 

Any manager would struggle with those injuries, lack of options, youngsters playing 2 games a week, zero midfield of note etc. Covid will mean limited finance for changes in January, in or out. Look at the positives, a number of young players have developed well, once we have a full (Or even close to full) squad they look competitive, with SL we should suffer less from a Covid financial hit than many clubs.

Of course, has we appointed a proven manager guaranteed to succeed we could be 21st....

[BBlockExile]

I am afraid that the only thing that gets Mr Lansdowns attention is ££££££££££££££££££££££££. So when next seasons season tickets drop again (14K 2019 20 - 12K 2020 21 - possibly under 10K 2021 22) then I think action might be taken to turn this disaster around before it is too late.

[Robin101]

Feels less like Tinnion and more like Millen, if you ask me.

Nice guy, loyal, deserves a shot at being a manager. Quite why we feel the need to be the club that always gives people this shot is beyond me.

[REDOXO]

I’m not sure what I’m missing! We have a massive injury crisis, having an entire first team including a couple of Subs in the treatment room. 

I simply don’t see the resulting iffy performances to be grounds for sacking of Holden. We just have to suck a few things up and come to a realization that Holden plus two experienced England coach’s are very definitely not a cheap option.

However, the mark of the bloke (and his expensive coaching team) is going to be what he does from here. 

We have a couple definitely coming back from Grimsby, Hull are almost certainly going to tell Adelakun he’s going back to Bristol unless they can find some wedge, plus the boys at Newport, Swindo etc So some reinforcements. We are now going to have to sign some loaners and maybe buy a couple.

We all know we are weak physically, including Holden who said as much to GT, so I expect a big signing/loan of a couple of physical types...Then we wil see it he can build a team from there.

I have lost all expectation of a top six finish and am expecting a right dicking on Saturday, but its what we do from there that Holden and his two mates need to be judged on!

 

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, REDOXO said:

I’m not sure what I’m missing! We have a massive injury crisis, having an entire first team including a couple of Subs in the treatment room. 

I simply don’t see the resulting iffy performances to be grounds for sacking of Holden. We just have to suck a few things up and come to a realization that Holden plus two experienced England coach’s are very definitely not a cheap option.

However, the mark of the bloke (and his expensive coaching team) is going to be what he does from here. 

We have a couple definitely coming back from Grimsby, Hull are almost certainly going to tell Adelakun he’s going back to Bristol unless they can find some wedge, plus the boys at Newport, Swindo etc So some reinforcements. We are now going to have to sign some loaners and maybe buy a couple.

We all know we are weak physically, including Holden who said as much to GT, so I expect a big signing/loan of a couple of physical types...Then we wil see it he can build a team from there.

I have lost all expectation of a top six finish and am expecting a right dicking on Saturday, but its what we do from there that Holden and his two mates need to be judged on!

 

Out of interest

How do you know Simpson and Downing are an ‘expensive coaching team ‘

 

FA jobs are not comparable wage wise to what Clubs pay - think you’d probably find they will be on a similar wage here to what Holden & Mcallister were on and still be getting a wage rise from their previous roles

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 30/12/2020 at 07:21, Fordy62 said:

Let’s not pretend that things were good under LJ or that they’d been any different now if he were still here. 

We can agree however on how much it beggars belief that a man as successful as SL can be so consistently poor at appointing managers. 

Let's look at the candidates/wishlist and their feasibility last summer shall we.

1. Cook- Had contractual complexities, unsure when he finally escaped these but possibly not before Holden appointment- available now however!
2. Howe- non-starter.
3. Hughton- Would have wanted something not realistic in the current climate, potentially.
4. Was Jokanovic linked? Well, if he was...?

The Cook and contractual obligations point is certainly something that you have disregarded in the past.

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 30/12/2020 at 13:44, Mendip City said:

That’s true... the plan is impossible. The plan wants to have our cake and eat it - produce players to get us to the premier league and also “trade” those players for a profit to balance the books. 
A quick scan of the premier league shows we achieved part of that - producing premier league players (Ayling, Reid, Webster, Bryan, brownhill) and turning a profit.  
How on earth do we square the circle and make it to the prem? It’s going to need far more investment- that might mean paying high wages to those players to keep them and get the job done. We could probably carry a smaller squad with greater quality and proper utilisation if the academy (fewer outbound loans). 
The model now seems to have switched to buying championship players for the championship - Martin, Wells being good examples. 
Aside from Bentley I’m struggling to see who the next big thing (next big sale) will be...
The squad is now full of solid Championship (but no higher) players: Kalas, Baker, Hunt, Paterson, Weimann, O’Dowda and a handful of unproven (and not proving themselves) younger players. 

Can be about opportunity, could Kalas step up or have stepped up to a lower PL side given the chance?

[WolfOfWestStreet]

On 30/12/2020 at 07:46, Galway Red said:

I'll remember the cup run for sure but my abiding memory of LJ's reign is some of the most dreadful, tedious and un-imaginative football in my 50 years of following the club and I'm afraid that if anything  it has become worse under DH

The trouble I'm having now is I'm looking back at LJs tenure with fondness, even though you are right on how poor it was, because the present is so dismal. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 hours ago, REDOXO said:

I’m not sure what I’m missing! We have a massive injury crisis, having an entire first team including a couple of Subs in the treatment room. 

I simply don’t see the resulting iffy performances to be grounds for sacking of Holden. We just have to suck a few things up and come to a realization that Holden plus two experienced England coach’s are very definitely not a cheap option.

However, the mark of the bloke (and his expensive coaching team) is going to be what he does from here. 

We have a couple definitely coming back from Grimsby, Hull are almost certainly going to tell Adelakun he’s going back to Bristol unless they can find some wedge, plus the boys at Newport, Swindo etc So some reinforcements. We are now going to have to sign some loaners and maybe buy a couple.

We all know we are weak physically, including Holden who said as much to GT, so I expect a big signing/loan of a couple of physical types...Then we wil see it he can build a team from there.

I have lost all expectation of a top six finish and am expecting a right dicking on Saturday, but its what we do from there that Holden and his two mates need to be judged on!

 

I wonder though, how important this is in 2020- less than it used to be IMO. Not saying you need none, but how many physical types do Brentford typically start with? Or Leeds of last season- do the best sides play with physicality, technique or a bit of both?

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

The trouble I'm having now is I'm looking back at LJs tenure with fondness, even though you are right on how poor it was, because the present is so dismal. 

 

First 8-10 games were better by many, if not all metrics than last season. We could see it too, often.

We had more possession, more chances, conceded less chances- all good. Seemed quite enjoyable, or at least an improvement.

Since then though, you're right- it's worse than 2019/20. Albeit our squad is somewhat decimated.

[Mendip City]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Can be about opportunity, could Kalas step up or have stepped up to a lower PL side given the chance?

All about opinions - I respect yours but personally I do t think he’s quite good enough. If anything I think  he’s gone backwards since joining us permanently. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

All about opinions - I respect yours but personally I do t think he’s quite good enough. If anything I think  he’s gone backwards since joining us permanently. 

It is, respect yours too- agree, gone backwards a bit- injuries haven't helped, but at Fulham in particular he was defo more of a ballplaying CB- or at least high end pass completion rate, can carry it forward over halfway for Czechs too, but here- not so much.

[Mendip City]

7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It is, respect yours too- agree, gone backwards a bit- injuries haven't helped, but at Fulham in particular he was defo more of a ballplaying CB- or at least high end pass completion rate, can carry it forward over halfway for Czechs too, but here- not so much.

Agree... maybe the real question is... what’ve we done to him?? Knocked the confidence out of him?  It could be the injuries but I reckon he needs quality alongside him and not to be the main leader/organiser. 
I hope he gets back to his best!

Happy New Year!

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Agree... maybe the real question is... what’ve we done to him?? Knocked the confidence out of him?  It could be the injuries but I reckon he needs quality alongside him and not to be the main leader/organiser. 
I hope he gets back to his best!

Happy New Year!

Quite possibly he does. Kalas of a few years ago lower PL? Maybe.

Happy New Year!

[cidered abroad]

Some very good posts on this thread which are factual and well thought out. The common opinion is that we are fairly safe this season but history is telling me that may not be so certain.

In 1978-79 season, City finished a creditable 13th in the First Division at the end of a season where some had thought that we might get into European competition with a high finish. That wasn't achieved but maybe the next season?

So in Ocrober 1979, Bristol City were in 8th place. Remember First Division!

By the end of April relegation was confirmed. I am not saying we will go down this season but with 24 matches still to be played, the current gap of 17 points between us and 22nd place is one that could easily be eroded if we continue with the current form and inept attacking performances. 

[cidered abroad]

10 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Can be about opportunity, could Kalas step up or have stepped up to a lower PL side given the chance?

I've seen enough in my time to know that when a player goes from a lower division club to one higher up the leagues, they work very hard to achieve success at the higher level.

However, I have also seen many coming the other way and it is quite normal that, because the incoming player is that much better than his new colleagues, they do not push themselves and ultimately perform at the same level as the rest of the team.

IMO, that is what has happened with Kalas. He is unconciously not pushing himself hard enough.

[Davefevs]

14 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I wonder though, how important this is in 2020- less than it used to be IMO. Not saying you need none, but how many physical types do Brentford typically start with? Or Leeds of last season- do the best sides play with physicality, technique or a bit of both?

I look at Leeds last season and see players who want to win.  You might not consider them physical in the truest sense, but they will win their battles, play on the edge, not shirk a challenge, win their 50:50s, and against teams like us win their 40:60s too. And a bit sly too!

Without thinking too hard:

Ayling

White

Alioski

Phillips

Klich

Bamford

They’d all give their grannie a kick if it meant winning.

As for Brentford:

Pinnock

Jansson

Watkins

Pinnock and Jansson were brought in especially to toughen them up.  Watkins, look at what he did to Williams.

Different type of physical to what we are used to.

[Banjo Island]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I look at Leeds last season and see players who want to win.  You might not consider them physical in the truest sense, but they will win their battles, play on the edge, not shirk a challenge, win their 50:50s, and against teams like us win their 40:60s too. And a bit sly too!

Without thinking too hard:

Ayling

White

Alioski

Phillips

Klich

Bamford

They’d all give their grannie a kick if it meant winning.

As for Brentford:

Pinnock

Jansson

Watkins

Pinnock and Jansson were brought in especially to toughen them up.  Watkins, look at what he did to Williams.

Different type of physical to what we are used to.

In a nutshell dave we have no wi nners in our team

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, Banjo Island said:

In a nutshell dave we have no wi nners in our team

I still remember the Man City game....and seeing David Silva, yes, little, wispy, David Silva show so much desire to get to balls first, get his shoulder in, etc.  Great balance too, and obviously a top class player, but it was his physicality that surprised me.....I knew about his ball-playing skills already.

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

13 hours ago, Mendip City said:

All about opinions - I respect yours but personally I do t think he’s quite good enough. If anything I think  he’s gone backwards since joining us permanently. 

Don't lot's of players, for some reason, it's a City thing!

[Banjo Island]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I still remember the Man City game....and seeing David Silva, yes, little, wispy, David Silva show so much desire to get to balls first, get his shoulder in, etc.  Great balance too, and obviously a top class player, but it was his physicality that surprised me.....I knew about his ball-playing skills already.

Few if any of our players show that desire to win at all cost our coach is a jolly nice fella and the team play exactly the same go get scott brown from celtic 100% winner

[T R]

On 30/12/2020 at 08:57, tin said:

That’s not his point, to be fair. The point is about how SL has a track record for appointing substandard coaches/managers and how those bad decisions rewrite history. 

Not many people can deny LJ had to go and I wouldn’t want him back, but too many people have blind faith in SL to get someone better. The reality is we have 20 years of evidence to see the backward decisions he’s made and continues to make. The only time we’ve achieved anything under SL is when Cotterill was appointed and SL took a backseat. 

Good post. I must admit i've always been disappointed in managers we've appointed apart from gary johnson and cotteril who gave us a glimmer of hope. Gary Johnson really lifted our spirits as a club I looked forward to going watch his team every game but in the end again it didn't work out. After Cotterill I really felt we needed to recruit a top manager but once again the club screwed it up. Now we have ended up again with a rookie manager and an owner i think his heart is no longer in it.

Just been watching the leeds tv show episode 2. It's a real eye opener and they decided to go for the top manager route.

[REDOXO]

16 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I wonder though, how important this is in 2020- less than it used to be IMO. Not saying you need none, but how many physical types do Brentford typically start with? Or Leeds of last season- do the best sides play with physicality, technique or a bit of both?

I take your point I would suggest, it tends to be a sliding scale. Take Rovrum, they don’t have a great deal of cash and cant compete in the transfer market for the really good players versus say a Norwich.

All teams must have a player or two who want to win the 50-50 balls and like a tackle, to ensure some dominance, the ratio is dependent on resources and what else you have.

Due to injuries we are lacking all over the field with obvious place being that dominance. Every team I played in we had at least one of those starting often two. Right now we are soft!

[maxjak]

On 30/12/2020 at 07:21, Fordy62 said:

Let’s not pretend that things were good under LJ or that they’d been any different now if he were still here. 

We can agree however on how much it beggars belief that a man as successful as SL can be so consistently poor at appointing managers. 

 SL is a clever and successful business man when it comes to stocks, investments and insurance......but he seems to be under the illusion that if you are a success in one field, it naturally goes that you will be successful in a completely different industry?   You could be unkind, and suggest a certain arrogance is at play?            If a successful top football manager was looking for investment advice it would follow that he would consult someone like Lansdown, so by the same token, can SL not see that he needs to take advice and guidance from someone who is an expert in the field of football, an experienced elder statesmen with a track record of  success and trophies in a completely different industry to SL's expertise in finance.  If he could swallow his pride he could then possibly  reap the benefits from someone who knew just how to appoint the correct management team in the world of football, and then we might just get somewhere?

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I look at Leeds last season and see players who want to win.  You might not consider them physical in the truest sense, but they will win their battles, play on the edge, not shirk a challenge, win their 50:50s, and against teams like us win their 40:60s too. And a bit sly too!

Without thinking too hard:

Ayling

White

Alioski

Phillips

Klich

Bamford

They’d all give their grannie a kick if it meant winning.

As for Brentford:

Pinnock

Jansson

Watkins

Pinnock and Jansson were brought in especially to toughen them up.  Watkins, look at what he did to Williams.

Different type of physical to what we are used to.

Depends what we mean by physicality I suppose- but yes point taken, Watkins has been noted at Aston Villa for his intense work rate, I was reading the other day- physical in that respect.

Watkins vs Williams wise, thought Williams was done for pace there tbh- watched some of the full game back when I found it online and despite a notable headstart, Williams was clearly struggling- unsure how to get those photos up of phases but Williams has lacked pace for a few years now anyway. What went before clearly a factor, but Williams was too slow from that position.

[Davefevs]

37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Depends what we mean by physicality I suppose- but yes point taken, Watkins has been noted at Aston Villa for his intense work rate, I was reading the other day- physical in that respect.

Watkins vs Williams wise, thought Williams was done for pace there tbh- watched some of the full game back when I found it online and despite a notable headstart, Williams was clearly struggling- unsure how to get those photos up of phases but Williams has lacked pace for a few years now anyway. What went before clearly a factor, but Williams was too slow from that position.

Yes....but he niggled him, wound him up, got him to bite....winners mentality.  Who does that for us?

Hunt - Canos?

Thats about it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes....but he niggled him, wound him up, got him to bite....winners mentality.  Who does that for us?

Hunt - Canos?

Thats about it.

Yeah we don't do much of that, for sure.

Had he not bitten, good chance he may not make it for pace anyway and either 2-0 or straight red IMO. Had Williams been a bit further back in his own half from the start of that phase albeit on a yellow, the straight red may not happen.

[Dr Balls]

We are generally mentally weak as a team. There are very few players who have that mentality of “do or die”, will not give up, and put their bodies on the line. And most of the ones that would are missing right now.

I would suggest that Weimann is one of the few (see how irate he would get with the referees when decisions went against us), Baker is another (explains a few of his injuries) and finally on his day its Diedhiou, which is why he has been sent off a few times for us.

As for the rest, most of them are far too meek and mild. Winners they are not!

[Lanterne Rouge]

48 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yes....but he niggled him, wound him up, got him to bite....winners mentality.  Who does that for us?

Hunt - Canos?

Thats about it.

Need Matty Taylor back - he was the master!

[TedsHeadIs Red]

The problem is MA’s good human policy for recruitment. We don’t want bad humans as such, just some that will mix it up a bit. It starts at the top. DH and those two coaches (can never remember their names which is a bad sign) are too nice.