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Robins & Bears. Compare & Contrast


BigAl&Toby

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55 minutes ago, M.D said:

The optimist in me would be hoping that SL is playing a waiting game this season. Covid driven costs will be down (Are this years books being used for FFP?) we have half of the pro squad out of contract in the summer so the wage bill will be reduced allowing a re build of the squad. A cheap head coach and staff in place so that when the summer comes and income streams will go up, we can get a new coaching set up in as this one will be cheap to replace and we will have scope to re build the squad to an extent and continue with our youth policy building for the next few years?

The realist in me says nah, we are just going round in circles again..

Yes.

They are being added to last years and then halved- with costs directly attributable to Covid 19 and EFL criteria also factored in. Prior 2 seasons as usual.

I do hope there is some waiting game in there too, maybe the Holden 12 month rolling deal an indicator- though it would be harsh given all the injuries he has had to deal with.

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's a tired comparison in some ways @BigAl&Toby

FFP, Parachute Payments are two factors. Whereas in Rugby there is a salary cap!

Money will buy you a lot more in Rugby too. Partly due to said salary cap?

How are managerial, coaching appointments accounted for in Rugby, sackings too- inclusive or exclusive of cap? In football both are included in full!

Doesn't seem a fair comparison without context and regulations also in the OP.

We don’t need comparisons with rugby when Brentford FC is a more than fair comparison........they have the same regulations to contend with on smaller crowds yet football wise seem miles ahead of us (if you look beyond points and position as your definition of watching decent football).

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4 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

We don’t need comparisons with rugby when Brentford FC is a more than fair comparison........they have the same regulations to contend with on smaller crowds yet football wise seem miles ahead of us (if you look beyond points and position as your definition of watching decent football).

I agree- Brentford, full of admiration for their model. However they don't appoint big names- they play great football and I think would have been a good addition to the PL personally, had they won the playoff final.

They don't appoint big names, some of those they sign are not so different to here, in terms of background and starting point- makes me wonder if some of those they signed would have flourished in the same way here had we done so and if some of those we signed would have done better if signing for Brentford.

However some of the rugby comparisons we see on here (not saying by you) are misleading.

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1 hour ago, Numero Uno said:

Agreed with one huge difference. If I was watching Bristol City failing to get to the Premiership but playing the type of football that Brentford play I wouldn’t have anything to complain about, nothing at all.

With the squad we’ve got we simply cannot play that football unfortunately or anything remotely approaching it and to me that is where my issue with the top management of the club is.

After 5 years of the current model, and that DH was chosen to build on and carry on (the failing and awful football.. the mind boggles) it shows how far from Brentford we are. I agree with your sentiment, playing attractive football, seeing players develop, even if sold, and being in the mix is what almost everyone is looking for. I do not sense any real complaints about not being in the Prem, far from it. There just doesn't seem to be any plan, any consistency or development. It looks random, made up, and ultimately the product on offer is awful. That a club like Brentford , historically a L2 club , are making us look stupid (we could add dozens of others that have got to the Prem, but let's keep Brentford , as it takes away the excuses) is a credit to them and should have been  a wake up a few years ago for the owner. 

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1 minute ago, Psychopomp said:

After 5 years of the current model, and that DH was chosen to build on and carry on (the failing and awful football.. the mind boggles) it shows how far from Brentford we are. I agree with your sentiment, playing attractive football, seeing players develop, even if sold, and being in the mix is what almost everyone is looking for. I do not sense any real complaints about not being in the Prem, far from it. There just doesn't seem to be any plan, any consistency or development. It looks random, made up, and ultimately the product on offer is awful. That a club like Brentford , historically a L2 club , are making us look stupid (we could add dozens of others that have got to the Prem, but let's keep Brentford , as it takes away the excuses) is a credit to them and should have been  a wake up a few years ago for the owner. 

Was he hired for that reason or was it as more of a holding appointment to see us through this season?

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In terms of comparison, I think it's simply that financially in rugby terms we are more like Chelsea or man city in terms of comparative wealth to our opponents. In football we have parachute payments and ffp to work around. Much easier to invest money and get success on rugby at the moment. 

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1 minute ago, Psychopomp said:

After 5 years of the current model, and that DH was chosen to build on and carry on (the failing and awful football.. the mind boggles) it shows how far from Brentford we are. I agree with your sentiment, playing attractive football, seeing players develop, even if sold, and being in the mix is what almost everyone is looking for. I do not sense any real complaints about not being in the Prem, far from it. There just doesn't seem to be any plan, any consistency or development. It looks random, made up, and ultimately the product on offer is awful. That a club like Brentford , historically a L2 club , are making us look stupid (we could add dozens of others that have got to the Prem, but let's keep Brentford , as it takes away the excuses) is a credit to them and should have been  a wake up a few years ago for the owner. 

Brentford is the fairest comparison simply because they have proven beyond all doubt that you can be a relatively small club, play great football AND be at the right end of the league. They literally eliminate any excuse that Lansdown and Ashton put forward.

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5 hours ago, Bristolbarhopper said:

Vincent Tan who  received a lot of piss taking  since taking over  Cardiff has led them to the Prem twice and an FA Cup Final in a much shorter time than SL’s reign.

They might not of been able to sustain it, but at least they had a real go , got there and banked all the money that comes with it.

 

You only have to see the piss taking on here when Watford make a change of manager, or Cardiff get a bad result, or when Villa went up, or when Derby experience difficulties etc etc etc. That’s before your Bournemouth’s, Norwich’s, Burnley’s, Swansea’s etc. It’s embarrassing, we are so far behind these clubs in recent history it’s untrue, yet many on here are just comfortable just being a mid table Champ team at best and believe we should be grateful for it. 

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20 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Was he hired for that reason or was it as more of a holding appointment to see us through this season?

Not sure why it was just to get through the season. Holding for someone else ?  The club were big on continuity, it took them 2 months of international research to work out they had wasted everyones time, and they wanted a puppet. Would make the firing of LJ even more amateur though. If it is for one season it is only because he is in the wrong job and they made another mess of it. The club was very attractive at that point. It is less so now. Downing or Simpson next then based on the "philosophy". Or they could just do away with the charade and let SL and MA do it directly without a filter. 

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45 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Out of interest If he’s not a fan why would SL spend 20 years here spending huge amounts on infrastructure and yes, players if he had no interest in football or City? I’m Just struggling with his motivation? I don’t buy the inference that there’s some sort of secret project going on where he is or will eventually make a shedload of cash. He is a multi millionaire - if he wanted to make cash I seriously doubt he’d be involved in sport in general?

Ego

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3 hours ago, Alessandro said:

The problem for me is, he's not got the right people in the right places.

And who puts those people in the right places ?

SL, I believe , wants success for the club and for him that involves very heavily having an impeccable public image. 
 

In seems that nasty, snarling winners are not part of the DNA that he looks for and therefore we will get bypassed by clubs who do what is necessary. 
 

Nice blokes rarely come out on top.
 

Those who are prepared to do what it takes seem to frighten Uncle Steve and we will just bumble along until the man himself gets tough , declares what he wants for the club and follows it up with the action needed. 
 

 

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Me and the boy and his sisters have been out this afternoon green-laning up by Westbury White Horse and over towards Mere. Most fun we’ve had on a Saturday afternoon for many a month.

We’d have done it anyway rather than waste another tenner on Robins TV and Toby, Downsy and Rene......

The real comparison for me when I watched Breakfast News early today and had this dream had nothing to do with FFP, sustainability, accounting practice or any other such bollocks.

It boiled down to a combination of sustainability and accounting. The word? Accountability and to some extent the rationale and quality of decision making.

Has SL invested wisely and made the right decisions during his tenure in charge of the club that was once (partly) owned by true fans? Who holds him to account now that he owns the whole shooting match? No one. He can do what he wants, when he wants.

It’s his ball and his rules. Don’t like it? **** off home for your tea....

Let’s go with the good old FFP argument for now though. Could he have spent better? We’ll never know I guess but what we do know is that in terms of return on his investment in the football club alone then surely he must rue some if not many of them? It’s not like we’ve seen any real tangible success over the past 20 odd years is it?

Short lived and dalliances with the big boys at times but **** me. Look where we are, who’s progressed more and where we could have been if we’d built on those successes.

And yet we appoint a suited man with no real footballing pedigree and put him in charge of recruitment. We allow sentimentality to influence appointments and have Tinnion and Murray as employees. We have LJ back and allow him to extend his welcome and then we enough is finally enough we replace him with one of his second in commands......

Meanwhile the Bears have experienced and successful personnel in charge. Those who have played the game at a far higher level than the likes of DH or MA. 

Nothing to do with FFP or financial constraints for me. The difference is a simple one. Ambition. True and honest ambition.

SL isn’t interested in who makes Bristol Proud. It’s first past the post for him. If he could see a better, quicker and more profitable return that would enable him to exit by having a ******* bucking bronco in the centre circle then he would.

Football and BCFC is marginal. It’s all about the money. Makes me sad. And cross.....

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29 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Brentford is the fairest comparison simply because they have proven beyond all doubt that you can be a relatively small club, play great football AND be at the right end of the league. They literally eliminate any excuse that Lansdown and Ashton put forward.

Although in fairness they have yet to achieve anything of note , no promotion to the Prem , no trophy ...

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1 minute ago, Major Isewater said:

And who puts those people in the right places ?

SL, I believe , wants success for the club and for him that involves very heavily having an impeccable public image. 
 

In seems that nasty, snarling winners are not part of the DNA that he looks for and therefore we will get bypassed by clubs who do what is necessary. 
 

Nice blokes rarely come out on top.
 

Those who are prepared to do what it takes seem to frighten Uncle Steve and we will just bumble along until the man himself gets tough , declares what he wants for the club and follows it up with the action needed. 
 

 

Christ Major he’s had 20 years.

We’ll all be dead before he gets tough. ?

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8 minutes ago, lenred said:

You only have to see the piss taking on here when Watford make a change of manager, or Cardiff get a bad result, or when Villa went up, or when Derby experience difficulties etc etc etc. That’s before your Bournemouth’s, Norwich’s, Burnley’s, Swansea’s etc. It’s embarrassing, we are so far behind these clubs in recent history it’s untrue   yet many on here are just comfortable being a mid table Champ team and believe we should be grateful for it. 

Certainly not me.
Many on here do not remember the history of City as too young, but think quite a few on here are just resigned to the mess we are in. Then there are those (happy clappers) who are just completely blinkered as to what has been happening in recent years. Just a complete mess.

City as a footballing team may have to go backwards short term in order to lance the boil (Ashton) in order to progress long term as it is obvious to most that his model ain’t never gonna work. SL probably needs to allow an experienced DOF in to the club to make the necessary changes once Ashton goes.

 

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12 minutes ago, Psychopomp said:

That a club like Brentford , historically a L2 club , are making us look stupid (we could add dozens of others that have got to the Prem, but let's keep Brentford , as it takes away the excuses) is a credit to them and should have been  a wake up a few years ago for the owner. 

The big wake up call came from South Wales over a decade ago. Swansea were near the bottom of the fourth tier and effortlessly passed as, going onto Premier League and Europa League football. They didn't have the spending power of SL but came up with a strategy and implemented it. Superb recruitment, particularly in the head coach role, and of course delivering attractive, attacking football. 

Huw Jenkins said that no-one ever called them to ask how they completed what was frankly a miraculous turn in fortunes. The arrogance of billionaire football club owners, right there. 

SL has previously highlighted them as a rival, we have performed pathetically measured against them over the past 19 years. 

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Was he hired for that reason or was it as more of a holding appointment to see us through this season?

I know some think DH might be a holding appointment but I'm not convinced. People have mentioned Howe, but come next summer he might have many options and there's no guarantee he'd come here. 

We could've afforded Hughton if we wanted to, otherwise why interview him multiple times.

If it was a holding appointment, then it's a massive error as this is the weakest Championship in years and would've presented an excellent opportunity to go for it.

SL has no interest in doing that though. I don't believe his plans for the club and ultimately his exit strategy needs Premier League football to succeed. 

Similar to the Glazers at Man U and Kroenke at Arsenal, they have made both clubs huge commercial successes without the need to be challenging for the Premier League title. Sure the silverware is nice and helps, but it is not a necessity to achieve what they want to through the clubs - profit. 

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4 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Although in fairness they have yet to achieve anything of note , no promotion to the Prem , no trophy ...

They are a relatively small if not tiny fish in a very big London pond whilst we are supposedly the biggest club in a whole region of the country. There should be no comparison yet the majority of us are incredibly glad that we don’t have to play them this weekend for fear of a thrashing.  That should ring some sort of bells with the ownership imho. It’s not good. 

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50 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Yes.

They are being added to last years and then halved- with costs directly attributable to Covid 19 and EFL criteria also factored in. Prior 2 seasons as usual.

I do hope there is some waiting game in there too, maybe the Holden 12 month rolling deal an indicator- though it would be harsh given all the injuries he has had to deal with.

Thank you

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18 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

The big wake up call came from South Wales over a decade ago. Swansea were near the bottom of the fourth tier and effortlessly passed as, going onto Premier League and Europa League football. They didn't have the spending power of SL but came up with a strategy and implemented it. Superb recruitment, particularly in the head coach role, and of course delivering attractive, attacking football. 

Huw Jenkins said that no-one ever called them to ask how they completed what was frankly a miraculous turn in fortunes. The arrogance of billionaire football club owners, right there. 

SL has previously highlighted them as a rival, we have performed pathetically measured against them over the past 19 years. 

I know some think DH might be a holding appointment but I'm not convinced. People have mentioned Howe, but come next summer he might have many options and there's no guarantee he'd come here. 

We could've afforded Hughton if we wanted to, otherwise why interview him multiple times.

If it was a holding appointment, then it's a massive error as this is the weakest Championship in years and would've presented an excellent opportunity to go for it.

SL has no interest in doing that though. I don't believe his plans for the club and ultimately his exit strategy needs Premier League football to succeed. 

Similar to the Glazers at Man U and Kroenke at Arsenal, they have made both clubs huge commercial successes without the need to be challenging for the Premier League title. Sure the silverware is nice and helps, but it is not a necessity to achieve what they want to through the clubs - profit. 

Swansea is a great example, 100% agree. Latter stages of Jackett to latter days of Laudrup their structure and plan were fantastic.

Could we though? Based on what we know financially and how the EFL have become more proactive with enforcement and monitoring. Is it correct?

Wages would be one thing but okay. Overhaul this season wouldn't be happening, plus can we say with certainty that we are not under any kind of short term FFP soft restrictions or 'guidance'.

I'll post more about it on another thread- I agree though, Swansea had their own unique model. Think it went ultimately when Monk got the job on a permanent.

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Just now, steveybadger said:

That’s a very expensive way to pander to it.

I get the criticism for his management of the club (although i disagree with a lot of it). But questioning his motivation or intentions I think is unfair.

Really? What do you think it is then? How do you justify the comments about fans basically liking or lumping it a while back? 

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1 hour ago, steveybadger said:

Out of interest If he’s not a fan why would SL spend 20 years here spending huge amounts on infrastructure and yes, players if he had no interest in football or City? I’m Just struggling with his motivation? I don’t buy the inference that there’s some sort of secret project going on where he is or will eventually make a shedload of cash. He is a multi millionaire - if he wanted to make cash I seriously doubt he’d be involved in sport in general?

By his own admission, he’s not a fan. He got involved because a six-year-old JL wanted to go and watch a live match. My own opinion is that he views the club as an investment opportunity, and he does stand to significantly further enhance his wealth through Ashton Vale, the sale of Bristol Sport or (the least likely) taking us into the PL. He’s an accountant. The only language they speak is money, and if he’d put that where his mouth is we wouldn’t have ended up with Dean Holden as manager. 

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32 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Brentford is the fairest comparison simply because they have proven beyond all doubt that you can be a relatively small club, play great football AND be at the right end of the league. They literally eliminate any excuse that Lansdown and Ashton put forward.

So owning a football club is easy then, everyone just does the same as Brentford and they will all get promoted to the Prem, playing great football on a shoestring budget.

Its always easy in hindsight to pick the correct model, but doing that years ago before and success is not quite so easy, as you could have picked loads of different plans on how to achieve the aim, for example spending big and chancing getting promotion without a FFP sanction, ultimately nearly all of them are unsuccessful.

Its easy for people to voice dissent at SL and I am not without frustrations, but pleased to have an owner where we are not looking over our shoulder at administration, we have progressed massively particularly off the pitch, which will give us the footing to get on the pitch correct, not that many years ago we were similar to our near rivals, the gas and swindle, now the gap is huge 

I don't understand the DH appointment and obviously much more to it, I am also frustrated at the what seems a change of plan in recruitment, from targeting up and coming players to signing old experienced players with little re-sale value and just as much motivation.

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3 minutes ago, tin said:

By his own admission, he’s not a fan. He got involved because a six-year-old JL wanted to go and watch a live match. My own opinion is that he views the club as an investment opportunity, and he does stand to significantly further enhance his wealth through Ashton Vale, the sale of Bristol Sport or (the least likely) taking us into the PL. He’s an accountant. The only language they speak is money, and if he’d put that where his mouth is we wouldn’t have ended up with Dean Holden as manager. 

How much would be get for Bristol Sport though? One valuation reckoned AG was only worth £50m!

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1 minute ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

So owning a football club is easy then, everyone just does the same as Brentford and they will all get promoted to the Prem, playing great football on a shoestring budget.

Its always easy in hindsight to pick the correct model, but doing that years ago before and success is not quite so easy, as you could have picked loads of different plans on how to achieve the aim, for example spending big and chancing getting promotion without a FFP sanction, ultimately nearly all of them are unsuccessful.

Its easy for people to voice dissent at SL and I am not without frustrations, but pleased to have an owner where we are not looking over our shoulder at administration, we have progressed massively particularly off the pitch, which will give us the footing to get on the pitch correct, not that many years ago we were similar to our near rivals, the gas and swindle, now the gap is huge 

I don't understand the DH appointment and obviously much more to it, I am also frustrated at the what seems a change of plan in recruitment, from targeting up and coming players to signing old experienced players with little re-sale value and just as much motivation.

Owning a football club is not easy although after 18 years or whatever it is it would be nice to see mistakes not being repeated.

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Just now, steveybadger said:

That’s a very expensive way to pander to it.

I get the criticism for his management of the club (although i disagree with a lot of it). But questioning his motivation or intentions I think is unfair.

Why I say ego is . I genuinely think he has a very limited knowledge of the game . He wasn’t (I believe ) much of a football fan until Jon wanted to go to city . He constantly makes the same mistakes in regards to management It’s well documented that cotterill’s appointment was down to Kieth Dawe and that cotts & SL didn’t really see eye to eye, probably because cotts ego was as big as Lansdowns. He has a CEO that does what SL says . Virtually all shareholders are now gone , leaving the club as a dictatorship. Who questions his decisions , nobody. 
Infrastructure wise , we’re in a good position . As a businessman it’s what he knows. Football however is a different matter and I genuinely believe we’ll never get promoted with the Lansdown’s at the helm . 
As for Jon. I know he has the title of chairman , but what does he actually do as the running of the club is down to Ashton . 

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How much would be get for Bristol Sport though? One valuation reckoned AG was only worth £50m!

There are too many variables to answer that. For example, when the arena is built, BS will be worth much more. Right now, it’ll be worth less and in times of a pandemic, who actually knows? Regardless of BS, when the houses are built, SL will line his coffers. 

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1 minute ago, tin said:

There are too many variables to answer that. For example, when the arena is built, BS will be worth much more. Right now, it’ll be worth less and in times of a pandemic, who actually knows? Regardless of BS, when the houses are built, SL will line his coffers. 

Line his coffers vs his total investment? Interesting to see the workings- total investment in just us or the whole Bristol Sport venture.

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1 hour ago, steveybadger said:

Out of interest If he’s not a fan why would SL spend 20 years here spending huge amounts on infrastructure and yes, players if he had no interest in football or City? I’m Just struggling with his motivation? I don’t buy the inference that there’s some sort of secret project going on where he is or will eventually make a shedload of cash. He is a multi millionaire - if he wanted to make cash I seriously doubt he’d be involved in sport in general?

⬇️⬇️⬇️

33 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Ego

Yep, beat me to it.  Not your normal “ego” of being flash.  My view, and I might be a million miles off is it almost a compensation of the fact he lives in Guernsey, and it makes him look good if he’s helping out South Bristol by his various developments....all of which will make him a wad of money.  Probably not explained very well.

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