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Robins & Bears. Compare & Contrast


BigAl&Toby

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How does the net gain for SL come in then? General question. Especially for @BigAl&Toby

Anyone at all though.

Is it the property on the Ashton Vale land? Is it the sale of the whole Bristol Sport enterprise- is it a mix of these two and repayment of outstanding loans as part of the sale + some rent clawed back in the meantime? Maybe some charging of interest on his loans?

It'll make him money but he has spent a lot too- where does the profit for him come in- and is it not an unrealised gain until it is realised?

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23 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

As for Jon. I know he has the title of chairman , but what does he actually do as the running of the club is down to Ashton . 

Draws things I think.

To be fair, when DH was announced in the video when sat next to Ashton, I thought he genuinely looked gutted if not embarrassed.

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12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

⬇️⬇️⬇️

Yep, beat me to it.  Not your normal “ego” of being flash.  My view, and I might be a million miles off is it almost a compensation of the fact he lives in Guernsey, and it makes him look good if he’s helping out South Bristol by his various developments....all of which will make him a wad of money.  Probably not explained very well.

I think it’s the ego of a man ( maybe completely wrong mind) that sees himself of having been the first man to give us top flight football for the first time since Harry Dolman and is probably very frustrated it hasn’t happened yet. As I’ve said on a previous post though. I don’t think he’s a dyed in the wool football man . He has his ego stroked by yes men . Would he want a DOF to come in and tell how it’s got to be . I don’t think so personally . Therefore we’ll forever go around in circles . 

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5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How does the net gain for SL come in then? General question.

Is it the property on the Ashton Vale land? Is itr the sale of the whole Bristol Sport enterprise- is it a mix of these two and repayment of outstanding loans as part of the sale + some rent clawed back in the meantime?

It'll make him money but he has spent a lot too- where does the profit for him come in- and is it not an unrealised gain until it is realised?

I think that’s it.

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43 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Although in fairness they have yet to achieve anything of note , no promotion to the Prem , no trophy ...

You might've been joking, but anyway:

Matthew Benham only became majority share holder - and therefore lone caller of shots - in summer 2012. They had just finished 9th in L1. Prior to this, Brentford had enjoyed just one season above L1/Div 3 since 1954. It took Benham two seasons to escape L1, and they have 6 consecutive tier 2 seasons since then.

Brentford have finished top half of the division they have contested in every one of the eight seasons under Benham as majority share holder, with three play-off campaigns.

Benham's impact at Brentford as majority share holder was immediate, and his success has been consistent (ie no fluke). Contesting play-offs at this level for Brentford is success.

Brentford have scored 70 goals or more in five of their six Championship seasons under Benham's ownership. They have been consistently entertaining. 

All this in an antique 10k ground and "selling his best players" every summer.

Frankly, as generous as Steve is, he's very "League One" when compared to Brentford's majority decision-maker. Sadly, for us.

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40 minutes ago, tin said:

By his own admission, he’s not a fan. He got involved because a six-year-old JL wanted to go and watch a live match. My own opinion is that he views the club as an investment opportunity, and he does stand to significantly further enhance his wealth through Ashton Vale, the sale of Bristol Sport or (the least likely) taking us into the PL. He’s an accountant. The only language they speak is money, and if he’d put that where his mouth is we wouldn’t have ended up with Dean Holden as manager. 

Completely accept how he got involved, I just don’t think he would’ve stayed as long as he has without some emotional investment. I’m still unconvinced about making cash - as a multi millionaire ‘accountant’ I’m sure he can find better ways to make cash. 

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6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How does the net gain for SL come in then? General question. Especially for @BigAl&Toby

Anyone at all though.

Is it the property on the Ashton Vale land? Is it the sale of the whole Bristol Sport enterprise- is it a mix of these two and repayment of outstanding loans as part of the sale + some rent clawed back in the meantime? Maybe some charging of interest on his loans?

It'll make him money but he has spent a lot too- where does the profit for him come in- and is it not an unrealised gain until it is realised?

You’ve answered your own question in my view.

If Steve has underpinned his investment in freeholds - which I believe he has - then one source of repayment will come from realising at a point of his, or Jon’s, or Jon’s offspring - all or part of that value.

Might be a complete or partial sale, or ongoing development with leasehold interests.

Might come from the stadium, Failand, other parts of BS3 or Ashton Vale. I really don’t believe that he wanted to put a stadium there - Trojan Nag to get a better resi consent.

And if that’s not enough then there’s “the brand”. Or it’s value through a customer base or data mine.

You know as well as I do that Stevie isn’t getting a return from pizza sales, wet sales, programme sales or replica kit.

Big investment warrants big returns.

But know what? Whatever he gets and whenever he gets will count for nothing against the value I attach to the memories of me and the boy attending his first match at Wembley.

Or him falling off his seat when he stands on it after we get promoted.

Or him and his sister on the pitch after Korey beats Man Utd.

Or me and the boy at the Etihad as Bobby D Reid smacks it in from the spot.

Or my old dad holding me on the barrier in the Enclosure all those years ago.

Jon might well have wanted to watch football as a child. As I did. Steve though didn’t need to do what he did. 

My old grand father often said “there’s no pockets in shrouds”. That memory lasts and says so much more than whatever else the old ****** left me. 

Steve wound do well to remember that. Memories last for ever and in the minds of those who’ve yet to come.

Money? That’s just that. Money.

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19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How does the net gain for SL come in then? General question. Especially for @BigAl&Toby

Anyone at all though.

Is it the property on the Ashton Vale land? Is it the sale of the whole Bristol Sport enterprise- is it a mix of these two and repayment of outstanding loans as part of the sale + some rent clawed back in the meantime? Maybe some charging of interest on his loans?

It'll make him money but he has spent a lot too- where does the profit for him come in- and is it not an unrealised gain until it is realised?

When AV was planned, the process was to obtain PP for the housing and then sell the land at a profit to put to the stadium. The real profit is in building and selling the houses. I'm not suggesting SL and JL got their boots on and started laying bricks but, surely there's a way of employing a housebuilder to then be able to increase the profit from that land. It wouldn't surprise me to see the dwelling and hotel side of the new developments sold off and just the leases held.

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55 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

SL has no interest in doing that though. I don't believe his plans for the club and ultimately his exit strategy needs Premier League football to succeed. 

Similar to the Glazers at Man U and Kroenke at Arsenal, they have made both clubs huge commercial successes without the need to be challenging for the Premier League title. Sure the silverware is nice and helps, but it is not a necessity to achieve what they want to through the clubs - profit. 

Man U and Arsenal have commercial value in their brands that we could never ever emulate though. I struggle to see any scenario in which SL covers the money he has put into BS, let alone make a profit. 

Granted SL is a very savvy businessman and maybe he has a masterplan that the likes of me wouldn't see. However, I am more inclined to think he enjoys the attention it gets him and he is capping his spend to a level that doesn't concern him.

I don't believe his ultimate end game is to make a profit. I do agree with those who see his major flaw is not appointing a proper football expert to run the recruitment and coaching setup. 

Yes Brentford are the exemplar but there are 22 other clubs in this league and most of them are nowhere near matching them either. 

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52 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

⬇️⬇️⬇️

Yep, beat me to it.  Not your normal “ego” of being flash.  My view, and I might be a million miles off is it almost a compensation of the fact he lives in Guernsey, and it makes him look good if he’s helping out South Bristol by his various developments....all of which will make him a wad of money.  Probably not explained very well.

I’ve no problem if by ego you’re talking about legacy - same as Mr Dolman all those years ago. Or perhaps he simply wants his sporting backwater of a city to be more on the map. Again, no problem with that (apart from the rugby!)

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1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

The big wake up call came from South Wales over a decade ago. Swansea were near the bottom of the fourth tier and effortlessly passed as, going onto Premier League and Europa League football. They didn't have the spending power of SL but came up with a strategy and implemented it. Superb recruitment, particularly in the head coach role, and of course delivering attractive, attacking football. 

Huw Jenkins said that no-one ever called them to ask how they completed what was frankly a miraculous turn in fortunes. The arrogance of billionaire football club owners, right there. 

SL has previously highlighted them as a rival, we have performed pathetically measured against them over the past 19 years. 

I know some think DH might be a holding appointment but I'm not convinced. People have mentioned Howe, but come next summer he might have many options and there's no guarantee he'd come here. 

We could've afforded Hughton if we wanted to, otherwise why interview him multiple times.

If it was a holding appointment, then it's a massive error as this is the weakest Championship in years and would've presented an excellent opportunity to go for it.

SL has no interest in doing that though. I don't believe his plans for the club and ultimately his exit strategy needs Premier League football to succeed. 

Similar to the Glazers at Man U and Kroenke at Arsenal, they have made both clubs huge commercial successes without the need to be challenging for the Premier League title. Sure the silverware is nice and helps, but it is not a necessity to achieve what they want to through the clubs - profit. 

Agree with most of what you write, but i'm not sure I entirely agree with these final few sentences. 

Little bit contradictory IMO - you say he's got a strategy for an exit plan and then talk about profits - surely if chasing profits was the sole game, premier league football is the only way to get serious returns? How long is it going to take to return the what must be £150m plus he's invested already?

Not sure revenue from whatever SL does with Bristol Sport and property at Ashton Vale will ever compare to the examples you've given of Arsenal and Man Utd (not far off a billion dollars of revenue a year at times) if Bristol City stay in the 2nd/3rd tiers. 

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22 minutes ago, Rich said:

When AV was planned, the process was to obtain PP for the housing and then sell the land at a profit to put to the stadium. The real profit is in building and selling the houses. I'm not suggesting SL and JL got their boots on and started laying bricks but, surely there's a way of employing a housebuilder to then be able to increase the profit from that land. It wouldn't surprise me to see the dwelling and hotel side of the new developments sold off and just the leases held.

Over and above total investment since he begun at City though?

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38 minutes ago, BigAl&Toby said:

You’ve answered your own question in my view.

If Steve has underpinned his investment in freeholds - which I believe he has - then one source of repayment will come from realising at a point of his, or Jon’s, or Jon’s offspring - all or part of that value.

Might be a complete or partial sale, or ongoing development with leasehold interests.

Might come from the stadium, Failand, other parts of BS3 or Ashton Vale. I really don’t believe that he wanted to put a stadium there - Trojan Nag to get a better resi consent.

And if that’s not enough then there’s “the brand”. Or it’s value through a customer base or data mine.

You know as well as I do that Stevie isn’t getting a return from pizza sales, wet sales, programme sales or replica kit.

Big investment warrants big returns.

But know what? Whatever he gets and whenever he gets will count for nothing against the value I attach to the memories of me and the boy attending his first match at Wembley.

Or him falling off his seat when he stands on it after we get promoted.

Or him and his sister on the pitch after Korey beats Man Utd.

Or me and the boy at the Etihad as Bobby D Reid smacks it in from the spot.

Or my old dad holding me on the barrier in the Enclosure all those years ago.

Jon might well have wanted to watch football as a child. As I did. Steve though didn’t need to do what he did. 

My old grand father often said “there’s no pockets in shrouds”. That memory lasts and says so much more than whatever else the old ****** left me. 

Steve wound do well to remember that. Memories last for ever and in the minds of those who’ve yet to come.

Money? That’s just that. Money.

Fantastic post. Football is about so much more than money and so many forget that.  

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52 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

How does the net gain for SL come in then? General question. Especially for @BigAl&Toby

Anyone at all though.

Is it the property on the Ashton Vale land? Is it the sale of the whole Bristol Sport enterprise- is it a mix of these two and repayment of outstanding loans as part of the sale + some rent clawed back in the meantime? Maybe some charging of interest on his loans?

It'll make him money but he has spent a lot too- where does the profit for him come in- and is it not an unrealised gain until it is realised?

I think it’s fair to say that Steve could tell you exactly where the return on his investment arises. As with the majority of very rich people he wouldn’t have left it to chance. Whether people like it or not he will also have planned an exit strategy at some point.

Many people’s gripe is not whether or how much return he gets on his investment. It’s the lack of progress on the pitch which is all the majority of us care about tbh. He could make a billion out of the club (he won’t obviously) for all I care.........unless making that return turns the Matchday experience into something that is as dull as ditch water.

All many of us want is to enjoy being a Bristol City supporter. What we have been served up for three years cannot be deemed as enjoyable unless the only thing you want out of the club is to look at your Sunday paper and see us in the top half or so of the Championship. If that’s all it’s about we may as well subscribe to a Sunday newspaper and sod the season ticket!!

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50 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

You might've been joking, but anyway:

Matthew Benham only became majority share holder - and therefore lone caller of shots - in summer 2012. They had just finished 9th in L1. Prior to this, Brentford had enjoyed just one season above L1/Div 3 since 1954. It took Benham two seasons to escape L1, and they have 6 consecutive tier 2 seasons since then.

Brentford have finished top half of the division they have contested in every one of the eight seasons under Benham as majority share holder, with three play-off campaigns.

Benham's impact at Brentford as majority share holder was immediate, and his success has been consistent (ie no fluke). Contesting play-offs at this level for Brentford is success.

Brentford have scored 70 goals or more in five of their six Championship seasons under Benham's ownership. They have been consistently entertaining. 

All this in an antique 10k ground and "selling his best players" every summer.

Frankly, as generous as Steve is, he's very "League One" when compared to Brentford's majority decision-maker. Sadly, for us.

Absolutely right, most will disagree, but sod the new ground.
What difference does the new ground make if you just sit there bored to tears for 90 minutes? I just want to see 90 minutes of entertaining football, I can take the loss if we at least try to win. (the old AG was good enough for me with plenty of atmosphere).

Watch the season ticket sales drop next season. Hats off to Brentford, it can be done.

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4 minutes ago, GasDestroyer said:

Absolutely right, most will disagree, but sod the new ground.
What difference does the new ground make if you just sit there bored to tears for 90 minutes? I just want to see 90 minutes of entertaining football, I can take the loss if we at least try to win. (the old AG was good enough for me with plenty of atmosphere).

Watch the season ticket sales drop next season. Hats off to Brentford, it can be done.

Hear hear. I’m was in awe when I walked into the new AG the first game but if I’d known what it would do to the atmosphere and the overall experience.....Well, I’d give it straight back in a heartbeat.

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16 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Agree with most of what you write, but i'm not sure I entirely agree with these final few sentences. 

Little bit contradictory IMO - you say he's got a strategy for an exit plan and then talk about profits - surely if chasing profits was the sole game, premier league football is the only way to get serious returns? How long is it going to take to return the what must be £150m plus he's invested already?

Not sure revenue from whatever SL does with Bristol Sport and property at Ashton Vale will ever compare to the examples you've given of Arsenal and Man Utd (not far off a billion dollars of revenue a year at times) if Bristol City stay in the 2nd/3rd tiers. 

 

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Over and above total investment since he begun at City though?

 

36 minutes ago, Rich said:

When AV was planned, the process was to obtain PP for the housing and then sell the land at a profit to put to the stadium. The real profit is in building and selling the houses. I'm not suggesting SL and JL got their boots on and started laying bricks but, surely there's a way of employing a housebuilder to then be able to increase the profit from that land. It wouldn't surprise me to see the dwelling and hotel side of the new developments sold off and just the leases held.

Yeah, it's the land deals which he will profit from, plus there will be significant value in AG, and both training facilities in Failand. 

500 homes on undeveloped Green Belt land at Longmoor Village (Ashton Vale). Once he secures the planning permission he will be able to sell that for circa £40m I'd imagine. Or he could do a joint venture with a housebuilder or two, and make even more.

2 hotels and 250 more homes proposed at AG. Pfft, probably another £50m, or again even more if he builds them out before selling. 

And this is before we get into selling off the football club and rugby club's assets, all of which he has, to be fair, added considerable value to. 

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1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

 

Yeah, it's the land deals which he will profit from, plus there will be significant value in AG, and both training facilities in Failand. 

500 homes on undeveloped Green Belt land at Longmoor Village (Ashton Vale). Once he secures the planning permission he will be able to sell that for circa £40m I'd imagine. Or he could do a joint venture with a housebuilder or two, and make even more.

2 hotels and 250 more homes proposed at AG. Pfft, probably another £50m, or again even more if he builds them out before selling. 

And this is before we get into selling off the football club and rugby club's assets, all of which he has, to be fair, added considerable value to. 

How much does he need to make off these before he hits breakeven, and then profit though?

My formula is his total expenditure since Day 1-these projects-what he's recouped to date=Loss/Breakeven/Profit.

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4 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

 

Yeah, it's the land deals which he will profit from, plus there will be significant value in AG, and both training facilities in Failand. 

500 homes on undeveloped Green Belt land at Longmoor Village (Ashton Vale). Once he secures the planning permission he will be able to sell that for circa £40m I'd imagine. Or he could do a joint venture with a housebuilder or two, and make even more.

2 hotels and 250 more homes proposed at AG. Pfft, probably another £50m, or again even more if he builds them out before selling. 

And this is before we get into selling off the football club and rugby club's assets, all of which he has, to be fair, added considerable value to. 

I just don't see him doing all this as a long term profit making venture, sure the housing etc will offset some of his investment but I think its more about him making a name for himself over a long term profit vision.

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4 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

 

Yeah, it's the land deals which he will profit from, plus there will be significant value in AG, and both training facilities in Failand. 

500 homes on undeveloped Green Belt land at Longmoor Village (Ashton Vale). Once he secures the planning permission he will be able to sell that for circa £40m I'd imagine. Or he could do a joint venture with a housebuilder or two, and make even more.

2 hotels and 250 more homes proposed at AG. Pfft, probably another £50m, or again even more if he builds them out before selling. 

And this is before we get into selling off the football club and rugby club's assets, all of which he has, to be fair, added considerable value to. 

Spot on. 500 houses at let’s say £250k each and the rule of thirds...

Kerching. That’s £40M for starters.

Eyes wide open. Professional investors know their exit before they even start. Not like me with my £1 ACCA on Paddy Power. City to win. Kalas anytime goal scorer.......

?

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2 hours ago, BigAl&Toby said:

Christ Major he’s had 20 years.

We’ll all be dead before he gets tough. ?

I always check the OTIB Death Pool thread before I post, I wouldn’t want to embarrass myself posting from beyond the grave. 
 

Just a little aside, I’ve dropped the ‘ Christ’ from my title it was a little bit pretentious. 
 

 

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6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I doubt he's in profit at this second, but he certainly could be in due course- with the housing stuff, hotel, assets etc- but until then it's a bit of an unrealised/paper gain?

I’m sure he isn’t in profit at this point....but he knows he will be at some point, or his inheritors will be.

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Ive dipped in and out of this thread this morning. 

I’m close to 60 and of all of those years supporting this club only 4 (four) have been in the top flight of English football!

I remember what was there before the Dolman Stand and everything since. 

I would suggest that This club has never recovered from the relegation in 80 and the consequences of that, but tha is not entirely my point!

Board after board have tried to match the heights of similar sized clubs like QPR or Palace or Reading or (name similar sized club with the exception of Preston NE) that have or are playing in the Premier League, yet with the exception of four years, that almost cost the club itself its existence, we have spent well over 100 years being also rans stumbling between the second and third and on occasion the fourth tier.

Yes I am inpatient for success, but blaming the majority shareholder for our position in the league, on the basis, it seems, of two appointments that one of which did not work out, despite massive support on here, and one that is ongoing is part of the reason we have a failed as a  football club so consistently since losing in the cup final and being relegated 110 years ago!

SL has quietly built a mini empire, of that there is no doubt, but the size of that Empire will be dependent largely on Bristol City getting promotion to The Prem. If the Bears remain competitive and win the championship so much the better.

Thus yes SL has/owns assets that he paid for. Yes the Rugby success highlights the position of the football team, yes if SL sells the lot he may come out ahead. But so what? 

LJ was supported with a kings ransom and was consistently supported until it was obvious he was crap, by a few jumping on SL now., which some would like to brush over. Holden has over a dozen injuries to first team players, its an injury crisis of massive proportions but here we go again its Lansdown’s fault, if only we had Chris Hughton (name random manager here) we would not be in this position. Please....I’m  sure Andy Weimann or Mawson or Walsh or Williams etc etc etc etc all blame Holden (and SL) for it too! 

 

 

 

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I’ll give a comparison for you:

Watching Bristol Bears - a delight. Scintillating top level sport with some of the biggest names in world rugby. Ultimate goal to win the premiership and European Champions Cup  

Watching Bristol City - a chore. Predictable nonsense year after year. Sound bites not backed up by any tangible action. Ultimate goal to remain a mid-table championship club. 

Yet still I’d class myself as a City fan first and foremost. Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated. . . 

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11 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

At some point pretty soon too. Maybe within 3-5 years...

Sell up or passed down to JL? Personally can’t see JL wanting it - just doesn’t look comfortable with the responsibility at all. Maybe well off the  mark though! 

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