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Robins & Bears. Compare & Contrast


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1 hour ago, robin_unreliant said:

Yes Brentford are the exemplar but there are 22 other clubs in this league and most of them are nowhere near matching them either. 

To reach the Prem - as SL has talked about - will require us to be the exemplar, to excel. It will necessitate excellence. 

The main reason for drawing attention to Brentford though is to knock into a cooked hat all the SL apologists and uber-loyalists, who trot out their explanations and excuses for incompetence when they insist we cannot hope to win promotion because:

We are a small club.

We have no history.

We're not a famous, old club. What were dead famous, years ago.

We had a crappy old ground, generating no income (prior to 2015)

We don't have parachute payments 

We sell our best players.

 

It is not these things that hold us back, or make it unrealistic to hope for a competitive side at the top of this division, at the business end of the season. As Brentford clearly demonstrate. We do not want for supporters, or money, or anything other than someone sharp and (football) canny enough to find a way (difficult though it may be), like many, many others like us have done since 1992.

I wonder what Matthew Benham might've achieved here had he taken over when SL did, and with our ground that we have now? A bit better than 8th and a pile of shite like Engvall, Diony, that German keeper, Sammy ****ing Sosmich or whatever his name was (ffs) et al.... and where Brentford would be now with SL in charge, at Griffin Park?

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2 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

To reach the Prem - as SL has talked about - will require us to be the exemplar, to excel. It will necessitate excellence. 

The main reason for drawing attention to Brentford though is to knock into a cooked hat all the SL apologists and uber-loyalists, who trot out their explanations and excuses for incompetence when they insist we cannot hope to win promotion because:

We are a small club.

We have no history.

We're not a famous, old club. What were dead famous, years ago.

We had a crappy old ground, generating no income (prior to 2015)

We don't have parachute payments 

We sell our best players.

 

It is not these things that hold us back, or make it unrealistic to hope for a competitive side at the top of this division, at the business end of the season. As Brentford clearly demonstrate. We do not want for supporters, or money, or anything other than someone sharp and (football) canny enough to find a way (difficult though it may be), like many, many others like us have done since 1992.

I wonder what Matthew Benham might've achieved here had he taken over when SL did, and with our ground that we have now? A bit better than 8th and a pile of shite like Engvall, Diony, that German keeper, Sammy ****ing Sosmich or whatever his name was (ffs) et al.... and where Brentford would be now with SL in charge, at Griffin Park?

Are Brentford not a bit of an outlier?

However it is a very interesting counterfactual, definitely.

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39 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

I’ll give a comparison for you:

Watching Bristol Bears - a delight. Scintillating top level sport with some of the biggest names in world rugby. Ultimate goal to win the premiership and European Champions Cup  

Watching Bristol City - a chore. Predictable nonsense year after year. Sound bites not backed up by any tangible action. Ultimate goal to remain a mid-table championship club. 

Yet still I’d class myself as a City fan first and foremost. Ever get the feeling you’ve been cheated. . . 

No Fun.....

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50 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

To reach the Prem - as SL has talked about - will require us to be the exemplar, to excel. It will necessitate excellence. 

The main reason for drawing attention to Brentford though is to knock into a cooked hat all the SL apologists and uber-loyalists, who trot out their explanations and excuses for incompetence when they insist we cannot hope to win promotion because:

We are a small club.

We have no history.

We're not a famous, old club. What were dead famous, years ago.

We had a crappy old ground, generating no income (prior to 2015)

We don't have parachute payments 

We sell our best players.

 

It is not these things that hold us back, or make it unrealistic to hope for a competitive side at the top of this division, at the business end of the season. As Brentford clearly demonstrate. We do not want for supporters, or money, or anything other than someone sharp and (football) canny enough to find a way (difficult though it may be), like many, many others like us have done since 1992.

I wonder what Matthew Benham might've achieved here had he taken over when SL did, and with our ground that we have now? A bit better than 8th and a pile of shite like Engvall, Diony, that German keeper, Sammy ****ing Sosmich or whatever his name was (ffs) et al.... and where Brentford would be now with SL in charge, at Griffin Park?

Pubs open!

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To reach the premiership we need to change the whole setup at the gate - mid table - unenthusiastic players will never get us there! I was amazed to see the wages some of them are on, if payment was performance based most of them would be broke!

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59 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

To reach the Prem - as SL has talked about - will require us to be the exemplar, to excel. It will necessitate excellence. 

The main reason for drawing attention to Brentford though is to knock into a cooked hat all the SL apologists and uber-loyalists, who trot out their explanations and excuses for incompetence when they insist we cannot hope to win promotion because:

We are a small club.

We have no history.

We're not a famous, old club. What were dead famous, years ago.

We had a crappy old ground, generating no income (prior to 2015)

We don't have parachute payments 

We sell our best players.

 

It is not these things that hold us back, or make it unrealistic to hope for a competitive side at the top of this division, at the business end of the season. As Brentford clearly demonstrate. We do not want for supporters, or money, or anything other than someone sharp and (football) canny enough to find a way (difficult though it may be), like many, many others like us have done since 1992.

I wonder what Matthew Benham might've achieved here had he taken over when SL did, and with our ground that we have now? A bit better than 8th and a pile of shite like Engvall, Diony, that German keeper, Sammy ****ing Sosmich or whatever his name was (ffs) et al.... and where Brentford would be now with SL in charge, at Griffin Park?

Please remember we ALL want City to do well - even if we might not agree on how well we think we are doing at the moment or how well we should be doing. No need to refer to people as apologists or loyalists as insults.

With respect.

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1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

To reach the Prem - as SL has talked about - will require us to be the exemplar, to excel. It will necessitate excellence. 

The main reason for drawing attention to Brentford though is to knock into a cooked hat all the SL apologists and uber-loyalists, who trot out their explanations and excuses for incompetence when they insist we cannot hope to win promotion because:

We are a small club.

We have no history.

We're not a famous, old club. What were dead famous, years ago.

We had a crappy old ground, generating no income (prior to 2015)

We don't have parachute payments 

We sell our best players.

 

It is not these things that hold us back, or make it unrealistic to hope for a competitive side at the top of this division, at the business end of the season. As Brentford clearly demonstrate. We do not want for supporters, or money, or anything other than someone sharp and (football) canny enough to find a way (difficult though it may be), like many, many others like us have done since 1992.

I wonder what Matthew Benham might've achieved here had he taken over when SL did, and with our ground that we have now? A bit better than 8th and a pile of shite like Engvall, Diony, that German keeper, Sammy ****ing Sosmich or whatever his name was (ffs) et al.... and where Brentford would be now with SL in charge, at Griffin Park?

The thing is getting to the Premiership is not the be all and end all for some. I would be happy watching a team that entertains me tbh and if certain weaknesses prevent us from getting promoted then fine. Terry Cooper managed to entertain us on a budget so low that he had to buy the players fish and chips on the way home.....

Is enjoying the football on offer on a Saturday afternoon more often than not really being entitled/too much to ask?

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24 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Please remember we ALL want City to do well - even if we might not agree on how well we think we are doing at the moment or how well we should be doing. No need to refer to people as apologists or loyalists as insults.

With respect.

"Happy clappers" really winds.me up!

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3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Over and above total investment since he begun at City though?

Sorry, I don't understand. I don't think he'll ever recoup what he's paid in, unless he gets to the premiership then sells the club, well, BS and all and pockets the money.

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2 hours ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

To reach the Prem - as SL has talked about - will require us to be the exemplar, to excel. It will necessitate excellence. 

The main reason for drawing attention to Brentford though is to knock into a cooked hat all the SL apologists and uber-loyalists, who trot out their explanations and excuses for incompetence when they insist we cannot hope to win promotion because:

We are a small club.

We have no history.

We're not a famous, old club. What were dead famous, years ago.

We had a crappy old ground, generating no income (prior to 2015)

We don't have parachute payments 

We sell our best players.

 

It is not these things that hold us back, or make it unrealistic to hope for a competitive side at the top of this division, at the business end of the season. As Brentford clearly demonstrate. We do not want for supporters, or money, or anything other than someone sharp and (football) canny enough to find a way (difficult though it may be), like many, many others like us have done since 1992.

I wonder what Matthew Benham might've achieved here had he taken over when SL did, and with our ground that we have now? A bit better than 8th and a pile of shite like Engvall, Diony, that German keeper, Sammy ****ing Sosmich or whatever his name was (ffs) et al.... and where Brentford would be now with SL in charge, at Griffin Park?

Benham’s interest is analytics and he has applied that to football with some success. He also bought Midtylland and made them the most successful team in Denmark, plus he has used them as a potential feeder for Brentford. He’s also employed some decent managers - Warburton and Smith.

Our big issue is that SL has put all his eggs in Mark Ashton’s basket. The question will be at what point (if ever) he decides that MA as the CEO of a business that is not achieving its stated aims is the problem that needs to be resolved, rather than the coaches or players.

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7 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Benham’s interest is analytics and he has applied that to football with some success. He also bought Midtylland and made them the most successful team in Denmark, plus he has used them as a potential feeder for Brentford. He’s also employed some decent managers - Warburton and Smith.

Our big issue is that SL has put all his eggs in Mark Ashton’s basket. The question will be at what point (if ever) he decides that MA as the CEO of a business that is not achieving its stated aims is the problem that needs to be resolved, rather than the coaches or players.

Started the ball rolling by appointing Uwe Rosler, who I always thought would be good candidate here.

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16 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

Benham’s interest is analytics and he has applied that to football with some success. He also bought Midtylland and made them the most successful team in Denmark, plus he has used them as a potential feeder for Brentford. He’s also employed some decent managers - Warburton and Smith.

Our big issue is that SL has put all his eggs in Mark Ashton’s basket. The question will be at what point (if ever) he decides that MA as the CEO of a business that is not achieving its stated aims is the problem that needs to be resolved, rather than the coaches or players.

Our only hope of losing Ashton is if he gets a top job with EFL or Premier League. I assume that is what he is after.

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5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

⬇️⬇️⬇️

Yep, beat me to it.  Not your normal “ego” of being flash.  My view, and I might be a million miles off is it almost a compensation of the fact he lives in Guernsey, and it makes him look good if he’s helping out South Bristol by his various developments....all of which will make him a wad of money.  Probably not explained very well.

Im not so sure ego , SL has little regard for a public profile. No idea what it is mind, but on the football side, as opposed to his other ventures he has a blind side. Or maybe better, a different agenda. I am not so sure such a capable person has a blind side, he knows what he is doing, nothing we write here will be a surprise to him. It might agitate him, annoy even, but the home truths only he can answer. He has chosen this path . There is no nasty agenda, he is covering his spend, and if he sold tomorrow the whole lot, he would be close to cutting even. But he clearly wants a certain type of control and is unwilling to hire quality off the field. It is bizzare to me, to many, but it is probably quite normal for him. He knows the choices he is making. It is done on purpose. 

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4 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Our only hope of losing Ashton is if he gets a top job with EFL or Premier League. I assume that is what he is after.

It would have to be on the basis of turning a profit on the buying and selling of players, because it hasn’t been success on the pitch, which is yardstick almost all of us would use.

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Just now, Dr Balls said:

It would have to be on the basis of turning a profit on the buying and selling of players, because it hasn’t been success on the pitch, which is yardstick almost all of us would use.

Then how can you spend one of our biggest fees in history and wages on 30 year old Wells ? Makes no sense. Like everything at the club. No real mission or target or consistency. 

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It's an interesting discussion, but the piece I don't understand is why he needs the football club (and the rest of his sporting "empire") if his goal is to make money.

He's already made a hell of a lot of money, and it would appear has a fairly successful model for making more. If he wants to buy land and build houses to make money then why does he need a football club losing ~£10m / year to do so? Why buy the rugby and the basketball?

It seems odd that people point out clubs like Man U and Liverpool who rake in obscene amount of money even if they don't win the PL, but then in the same breath say Lansdown doesn't really care about getting to the PL - surely if it's primarily a money making exercise that's where the real value is; creating a global brand and selling a billion shirts in China or whatever.

To me it seems more like a vanity project, and if he makes money out of the end then he'll be even happier. I assumed he wanted a legacy, and when you're a billionaire a shiny building in the centre of Bristol which has your name on it isn't as good as a premier league football club or sporting empire. I'm not foolish enough to believe he's doing it for purely altruistic reasons, but I'm not sure I fully accept that he's doing it primarily to make money then sell up though. I think he wants to stroke his ego, and he's already done/doing that from a monetary point of view so it's a cultural / stature thing now.

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding?

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27 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

It's an interesting discussion, but the piece I don't understand is why he needs the football club (and the rest of his sporting "empire") if his goal is to make money.

He's already made a hell of a lot of money, and it would appear has a fairly successful model for making more. If he wants to buy land and build houses to make money then why does he need a football club losing ~£10m / year to do so? Why buy the rugby and the basketball?

It seems odd that people point out clubs like Man U and Liverpool who rake in obscene amount of money even if they don't win the PL, but then in the same breath say Lansdown doesn't really care about getting to the PL - surely if it's primarily a money making exercise that's where the real value is; creating a global brand and selling a billion shirts in China or whatever.

To me it seems more like a vanity project, and if he makes money out of the end then he'll be even happier. I assumed he wanted a legacy, and when you're a billionaire a shiny building in the centre of Bristol which has your name on it isn't as good as a premier league football club or sporting empire. I'm not foolish enough to believe he's doing it for purely altruistic reasons, but I'm not sure I fully accept that he's doing it primarily to make money then sell up though. I think he wants to stroke his ego, and he's already done/doing that from a monetary point of view so it's a cultural / stature thing now.

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding?

Controlled vanity project then. You are making good points, but damage limitation is also evident. Hey, nothing wrong with that either, it's not our money. I think the argument is more related to how the money is pent rather than the amount. 

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9 hours ago, Dr Balls said:

Benham’s interest is analytics and he has applied that to football with some success. He also bought Midtylland and made them the most successful team in Denmark, plus he has used them as a potential feeder for Brentford. He’s also employed some decent managers - Warburton and Smith.

Our big issue is that SL has put all his eggs in Mark Ashton’s basket. The question will be at what point (if ever) he decides that MA as the CEO of a business that is not achieving its stated aims is the problem that needs to be resolved, rather than the coaches or players.

I think he put his eggs in two baskets. Ashton and Johnson. 

The Johnson’s have failed him twice, though senior, only just. 

I suspect the idea was leaving the Club increasingly on the ‘up’and in the ‘capable’ hands of Ashton, while he and Maggie enjoyed their retirement and managed from afar. Jon was given the watching brief.

It’s all gone a bit pear-shaped.

Is he willing to commit further large amounts of time to the Club? Possibly, but suspect he may be getting a little fatigued with it all now. Lots of his time, money wasted and failure to get to the promised land. Successful people in general don’t like to be associated with failure. 

The rugby has the high profile success and compliments from loads of pundits so that’s the sport, I suspect, that his sustaining his interest and increasingly, it seems, that of his family.

Worrying times on the football side. Cleary, Lansdown’s decision-making on appointments doesn’t stand up to scrutiny and his likely micro-management approach in the earlier days was unhelpful. However, those that have been privileged to serve the Club, been paid well and given every opportunity to compete with the best should equally, if not more so, be criticised for their performances and our current lamentable displays of dull, boring, ineffective, crab football. 

 

Ps think those that believe Lansdown is using City as a ‘cover’ for and purchases and planning permissions have gone one conspiracy too far. 

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10 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

The thing is getting to the Premiership is not the be all and end all for some. I would be happy watching a team that entertains me tbh and if certain weaknesses prevent us from getting promoted then fine. Terry Cooper managed to entertain us on a budget so low that he had to buy the players fish and chips on the way home.....

Is enjoying the football on offer on a Saturday afternoon more often than not really being entitled/too much to ask?

It's not the be-all for me, either. But, we as a football club are becoming like the bloke in his mid 40s who has yet to, er, you know, persuade a lady to let him get jiggy with it, or her, and everyone in the office knows, and they all like him but pity him and patronise him, and the girls in the office say: "aw, bless, he's so sweet," and see him as a friend, but nothing more. He's still in short trousers. He's no threat, to the jiggy ladies (who are all doing their jiggling with those bloody bad big boys, the bastards), he's not taken seriously. Until he gets to the "Prem," at least once, he's not a "man" and he's still a little boy, along with yer Rochdales, yer Gillinghams, yer Bristol Rovers (who will never get to get jiggy. With it). In short trousers.

We are becoming the Peter Pan of English football. Like it or not, we need to get there. Get there and be relegated, and then get there again. We need to grow up, and start wearing big boy trousers. We need to get this out of our system.

Few people will enjoy endless years of finishing 12th to 8th, as others pass us by and taste at least a glorious promotion season, this would become stagnation. Crowds would drift away, interest would wane, revenue would fall, it would become increasingly difficult to maintain 12th to 8th, never mind playing some entertaining stuff.

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2 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

It's not the be-all for me, either. But, we as a football club are becoming like the bloke in his mid 40s who has yet to, er, you know, persuade a lady to let him get jiggy with it, or her, and everyone in the office knows, and they all like him but pity him and patronise him, and the girls in the office say: "aw, bless, he's so sweet," and see him as a friend, but nothing more. He's still in short trousers. He's no threat, to the jiggy ladies (who are all doing their jiggling with those bloody bad big boys, the bastards), he's not taken seriously. Until he gets to the "Prem," at least once, he's not a "man" and he's still a little boy, along with yer Rochdales, yer Gillinghams, yer Bristol Rovers (who will never get to get jiggy. With it). In short trousers.

We are becoming the Peter Pan of English football. Like it or not, we need to get there. Get there and be relegated, and then get there again. We need to grow up, and start wearing big boy trousers. We need to get this out of our system.

Few people will enjoy endless years of finishing 12th to 8th, as others pass us by and taste at least a glorious promotion season, this would become stagnation. Crowds would drift away, interest would wane, revenue would fall, it would become increasingly difficult to maintain 12th to 8th, never mind playing some entertaining stuff.

Using your analogy perhaps the guy in the office needs to change his tack and have a go with the ladies first, failing a bit miserably to start with and then in the end one might fall for his charms!!

Football wise we don’t even have a go. Back to your analogy if the guy in the office carries on as he is he’ll never get there or even enjoy himself trying to.....and he’ll be sat in the corner of a boozer in his seventies mulling over what might have been.

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9 hours ago, IAmNick said:

It's an interesting discussion, but the piece I don't understand is why he needs the football club (and the rest of his sporting "empire") if his goal is to make money.

He's already made a hell of a lot of money, and it would appear has a fairly successful model for making more. If he wants to buy land and build houses to make money then why does he need a football club losing ~£10m / year to do so? Why buy the rugby and the basketball?

It seems odd that people point out clubs like Man U and Liverpool who rake in obscene amount of money even if they don't win the PL, but then in the same breath say Lansdown doesn't really care about getting to the PL - surely if it's primarily a money making exercise that's where the real value is; creating a global brand and selling a billion shirts in China or whatever.

To me it seems more like a vanity project, and if he makes money out of the end then he'll be even happier. I assumed he wanted a legacy, and when you're a billionaire a shiny building in the centre of Bristol which has your name on it isn't as good as a premier league football club or sporting empire. I'm not foolish enough to believe he's doing it for purely altruistic reasons, but I'm not sure I fully accept that he's doing it primarily to make money then sell up though. I think he wants to stroke his ego, and he's already done/doing that from a monetary point of view so it's a cultural / stature thing now.

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding?

This was the point I was making earlier - there are better, easier ways to make money!!

Yes SL may well start turning a profit at some point, but in the championship it’s peanuts and the figures banded about for property etc barely add up to cover his investment already in the club.

I think the criticism of SL is all good and fair, but it’s the ‘conspiracy theories’ and verging on conspiracy theories about his intentions, especially financially, which IMO I don’t subscribe to and don’t think help our relations with him. To be honest, if it was me, I’d find that alienating!

Remember this man is a billionaire, getting richer all the time living in a tax haven. He knows all about how to make and keep money - any profit from Bristol Sport (unless City get into the prem and then Europe) is surely change for a shoe buffer.

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36 minutes ago, RedRock said:

I think he put his eggs in two baskets. Ashton and Johnson. The Johnsons have failed him twice, though senior, only just. 

I suspect the idea was leaving the Club increasingly on the ‘up’and in the ‘capable’ hands of Ashton, while he and Maggie enjoyed their retirement and managed from afar. Jon was given the watching brief.

It’s all gone a bit pear-shaped.

Fair comments. I’ve long thought that SL gets hoodwinked by individuals whose bullshit baffles brains. It’s what GJ, LJ and Ashton all have in common.

One of SL’s strengths is putting trust in people, but it’s also his downfall. He’s largely chosen charlatans, rather than people who’ve been there, done it and got the T-shirt.

The irony is those individuals have almost certainly cost him more money than someone like Coppell, for example, and yet that appointment is seemingly what holds him back from going down that route ever again. 

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9 minutes ago, tin said:

Fair comments. I’ve long thought that SL gets hoodwinked by individuals whose bullshit baffles brains. It’s what GJ, LJ and Ashton all have in common.

One of SL’s strengths is putting trust in people, but it’s also his downfall. He’s largely chosen charlatans, rather than people who’ve been there, done it and got the T-shirt.

The irony is those individuals have almost certainly cost him more money than someone like Coppell, for example, and yet that appointment is seemingly what holds him back from going down that route ever again. 

Tin, totally the opposite mate. It’s others that trust him. He’s full of it. Even DH is realizing he got hood winked. I think you are reading the wrong comics 

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15 hours ago, Davefevs said:

⬇️⬇️⬇️

Yep, beat me to it.  Not your normal “ego” of being flash.  My view, and I might be a million miles off is it almost a compensation of the fact he lives in Guernsey, and it makes him look good if he’s helping out South Bristol by his various developments....all of which will make him a wad of money.  Probably not explained very well.

Also what is Ashton gate worth now ? Probably the highest piece of real estate in the south west of England 

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10 hours ago, Psychopomp said:

Then how can you spend one of our biggest fees in history and wages on 30 year old Wells ? Makes no sense. Like everything at the club. No real mission or target or consistency. 

Yet a lot on otib were raving about Wells. The next transfer window shopping list threads will be interesting!

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