Possible coincidence to our injuries?

[Club and Country]

20 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Not me.........I judge things on the available evidence and with regard to injuries there is no evidence that anything is to blame - however if you consider otibs speculation and the media reliable ‘evidence’............ then I just don’t agree.

My available evidence is quite a bit different to yours clearly

there are massive issues down there at the min, it’s as simple as that 

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, Club and Country said:

My available evidence is quite a bit different to yours clearly

there are massive issues down there at the min, it’s as simple as that 

Obviously! I have absolutely no firm evidence whatsoever. I don’t consider the media or otib to be reliable sources.

[Club and Country]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Obviously! I have absolutely no firm evidence whatsoever. I don’t consider the media or otib to be reliable sources.

That makes 2 off us then...

[Phileas Fogg]

34 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Obviously! I have absolutely no firm evidence whatsoever. I don’t consider the media or otib to be reliable sources.

What do you consider a reliable source then? If you're going to say 'the OS' then yes of course, but they'll only say the things they want us to know. 

[italian dave]

39 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Obviously! I have absolutely no firm evidence whatsoever. I don’t consider the media or otib to be reliable sources.

Too many people talking b---ks, eh?  

Seriously though, OTIB isn't meant to be a "source". It's a discussion forum.

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

What do you consider a reliable source then? If you're going to say 'the OS' then yes of course, but they'll only say the things they want us to know. 

You’ve more or less answered your own question PF.

Of course the club, any club reveal only what reflects hem is a positive light and none of them would slag off their own medical/physio departments.

A reliable source to me would for one or two ‘unhappy’ injured players to come out publicly and say so. Of course that’s not going to happen.......so I’ll remain sceptical about all the finger pointing.

[Robbored]

6 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Too many people talking b---ks, eh?  

Seriously though, OTIB isn't meant to be a "source". It's a discussion forum.

I never said that people post a load of bollocks, I think it sometimes tho..........

[Phileas Fogg]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

You’ve more or less answered your own question PF.

Of course the club, any club reveal only what reflects hem is a positive light and none of them would slag off their own medical/physio departments.

A reliable source to me would for one or two ‘unhappy’ injured players to come out publicly and say so. Of course that’s not going to happen.......so I’ll remain sceptical about all the finger pointing.

They pretty much have haven't they? They wouldn't outwardly criticise the club's handling of injuries in the media unless they never wanted to play for us again.

What's leaked about Williams is as good as we're realistically going to get.

Obviously it's your call what you believe/disbelieve - but choosing to only believe basically primary sources means you miss out on a lot of info. It also makes visiting the Transfer Forum a waste of time.. although we all know you post in there and read it. 

[redrob]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

I don’t understand why some posters question that the lengthy injury list is down to the medical/physio department................. The fact is that body repairing itself cannot be hurried. 

Football is a contact sport and injuries happen virtually every game. City have been unlucky. It is what it is.

I once attended a seminar delivered by Professor Barry Drust who was brought into Liverpool when they had begun to experience with an ncress in soft-tissue injuries after Kenny Dalglish took over from Rafa Benitez. 

Barry Drust explained the issue, which was identified by studying the way that Dalglish and his team had the team training was almost entirely a result of:

- the type of training the team were doing under Dalglish,

- when they were training,

- ow hard they were training

- how often they were training. 

 

Barry Drust also pointed out that Dalglish and his relatively small team had no concept of the theoretical principles of training or of the concept of periodisation (see image below) 

https://images.app.goo.gl/mF5fYpF2vSmXRmT46

In this way, it was not bad luck that Liverpool had been getting all their soft-tissue injuries but down to poorly designed training. 

My understanding is that the issues at Arsenal were largely a similar problem. 

So I wonder if that issue has been brought here? 

 

Another issue with Arsenal in mid-2010s and which was well documented in a report in the Guardian spoke of what is referred to as 'The Gulliver Theory'. That is that shorter limbed or less physical athletes have to work at a higher intensity to keep up with longer limbed or more physically strong/fast athletes. Around the mid-2010s Arsenal's team consisted largely of footballers smaller in stature than many of their counterparts (e.g. Cazorla, Sanchez, Wilshere, Walcott, Arteta). Their injury record at the speaks for itself. Was it a coincidence that it was these players who were more often on the treatment table?

We know that our squad (especially our midfielders) tend to be smaller or less physical than some others in our league. Couple this with training overload or the wrong type of training and you can see a potential recipe for problems.

[steviestevieneville]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Is it three year?        

Yeah, I would say that City have been unlucky with injuries. I’m certainly not going to point the finger at the medical/physio departments ineptitude.These guys are fully qualified, professional people who know what they’re doing. The days of Buster Footman are long gone thankfully 

I daresay that City aren’t the only Championship club to have a lengthy injury list. 

Yet again a cop out of a answer . Have you read the reports I tagged you in . Yes it is three years . 

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, redrob said:

I once attended a seminar delivered by Professor Barry Drust who was brought into Liverpool when they had begun to experience with an ncress in soft-tissue injuries after Kenny Dalglish took over from Rafa Benitez. 

Barry Drust explained the issue, which was identified by studying the way that Dalglish and his team had the team training was almost entirely a result of:

- the type of training the team were doing under Dalglish,

- when they were training,

- ow hard they were training

- how often they were training. 

 

Barry Drust also pointed out that Dalglish and his relatively small team had no concept of the theoretical principles of training or of the concept of periodisation (see image below) 

https://images.app.goo.gl/mF5fYpF2vSmXRmT46

In this way, it was not bad luck that Liverpool had been getting all their soft-tissue injuries but down to poorly designed training. 

My understanding is that the issues at Arsenal were largely a similar problem. 

So I wonder if that issue has been brought here? 

 

Another issue with Arsenal in mid-2010s and which was well documented in a report in the Guardian spoke of what is referred to as 'The Gulliver Theory'. That is that shorter limbed or less physical athletes have to work at a higher intensity to keep up with longer limbed or more physically strong/fast athletes. Around the mid-2010s Arsenal's team consisted largely of footballers smaller in stature than many of their counterparts (e.g. Cazorla, Sanchez, Wilshere, Walcott, Arteta). Their injury record at the speaks for itself. Was it a coincidence that it was these players who were more often on the treatment table?

We know that our squad (especially our midfielders) tend to be smaller or less physical than some others in our league. Couple this with training overload or the wrong type of training and you can see a potential recipe for problems.

 

Very interesting post. You also tend to notice that often it's taller ectomorphic players who have recurring injuries, especially ones who play in quite a battling way. Andy Carroll and Milan Djuric to name but two, especially as forwards have to twist and turn a lot. 

[steviestevieneville]

18 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I never said that people post a load of bollocks, I think it sometimes tho..........

Re read your own do you ? 

[steviestevieneville]

There’s no doubt that the frequent games , lack of pre season and not much of a break between the seasons have had a effect. 
The main problem for concern though comes from the length of recovery & in pato’s case  mis diagnosis 

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, redrob said:

I once attended a seminar delivered by Professor Barry Drust who was brought into Liverpool when they had begun to experience with an ncress in soft-tissue injuries after Kenny Dalglish took over from Rafa Benitez. 

Barry Drust explained the issue, which was identified by studying the way that Dalglish and his team had the team training was almost entirely a result of:

- the type of training the team were doing under Dalglish,

- when they were training,

- ow hard they were training

- how often they were training. 

 

Barry Drust also pointed out that Dalglish and his relatively small team had no concept of the theoretical principles of training or of the concept of periodisation (see image below) 

https://images.app.goo.gl/mF5fYpF2vSmXRmT46

In this way, it was not bad luck that Liverpool had been getting all their soft-tissue injuries but down to poorly designed training. 

My understanding is that the issues at Arsenal were largely a similar problem. 

So I wonder if that issue has been brought here? 

 

Another issue with Arsenal in mid-2010s and which was well documented in a report in the Guardian spoke of what is referred to as 'The Gulliver Theory'. That is that shorter limbed or less physical athletes have to work at a higher intensity to keep up with longer limbed or more physically strong/fast athletes. Around the mid-2010s Arsenal's team consisted largely of footballers smaller in stature than many of their counterparts (e.g. Cazorla, Sanchez, Wilshere, Walcott, Arteta). Their injury record at the speaks for itself. Was it a coincidence that it was these players who were more often on the treatment table?

We know that our squad (especially our midfielders) tend to be smaller or less physical than some others in our league. Couple this with training overload or the wrong type of training and you can see a potential recipe for problems.

 

 

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Very interesting post. You also tend to notice that often it's taller ectomorphic players who have recurring injuries, especially ones who play in quite a battling way. Andy Carroll and Milan Djuric to name but two, especially as forwards have to twist and turn a lot. 

To clarify, my 'Hmmm' response to your post was not that I questioned or doubted your opinion, but because I found it interesting, intriguing even.

Not so long ago, we (City) had a medical man (whose name I forget) who released a fascinating report with diagrams etc. to explain and illustrate the nature and extent of an injury to our Italian full back, Eros Pisano. I am not a medical man, but was fascinated by his report and thought how refreshing it was to be given such insight in to Eros' injury.

I also remember how this 'medical man' seemed to always have a smile on his face and, whenever I saw him on live screened games, he was pitch side encouraging the team, always with the same warm smile - there was even one match when a previously injured player (Fam?) scored and ran immediately to embrace the 'medical man' - shame on me for not remembering his name.

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that this 'MM' was obviously liked and respected by the team, but left quite abruptly and surprisingly (to me) for reasons I forget - probably to explore new opportunities: have our recent injuries increased since his departure?

@Phileas Fogg, I note what you say, but do not recall Peter Crouch suffering major recurring injuries.

[Phileas Fogg]

23 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

 

To clarify, my 'Hmmm' response to your post was not that I questioned or doubted your opinion, but because I found it interesting, intriguing even.

Not so long ago, we (City) had a medical man (whose name I forget) who released a fascinating report with diagrams etc. to explain and illustrate the nature and extent of an injury to our Italian full back, Eros Pisano. I am not a medical man, but was fascinated by his report and thought how refreshing it was to be given such insight in to Eros' injury.

I also remember how this 'medical man' seemed to always have a smile on his face and, whenever I saw him on live screened games, he was pitch side encouraging the team, always with the same warm smile - there was even one match when a previously injured player (Fam?) scored and ran immediately to embrace the 'medical man' - shame on me for not remembering his name.

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that this 'MM' was obviously liked and respected by the team, but left quite abruptly and surprisingly (to me) for reasons I forget - probably to explore new opportunities: have our recent injuries increased since his departure?

@Phileas Fogg, I note what you say, but do not recall Peter Crouch suffering major recurring injuries.

You can always find exceptions, but that's why I noted style of play - for an unusually tall player, Peter Crouch was fairly elegant. He wasn't a player like Carroll or Djuric who, when fit, flies into aerial challenges and has physical battles with defenders. Crouch wasn't really like that, he was quite a clever and cute player who didn't really play how you'd expect such a tall man to play.

Sure, he scored some headers as any 6ft 7" forward would - but he was arguably better with the ball played into his feet. 

Very good and underrated player I felt. 

[DingleRed]

41 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

 

To clarify, my 'Hmmm' response to your post was not that I questioned or doubted your opinion, but because I found it interesting, intriguing even.

Not so long ago, we (City) had a medical man (whose name I forget) who released a fascinating report with diagrams etc. to explain and illustrate the nature and extent of an injury to our Italian full back, Eros Pisano. I am not a medical man, but was fascinated by his report and thought how refreshing it was to be given such insight in to Eros' injury.

I also remember how this 'medical man' seemed to always have a smile on his face and, whenever I saw him on live screened games, he was pitch side encouraging the team, always with the same warm smile - there was even one match when a previously injured player (Fam?) scored and ran immediately to embrace the 'medical man' - shame on me for not remembering his name.

Anyway, what I wanted to say was that this 'MM' was obviously liked and respected by the team, but left quite abruptly and surprisingly (to me) for reasons I forget - probably to explore new opportunities: have our recent injuries increased since his departure?

@Phileas Fogg, I note what you say, but do not recall Peter Crouch suffering major recurring injuries.

Correct, 27th January 2018 against QPR

There were emotional scenes in the celebrations as he ran over to head physio Steve Allen and the rest of the coaching staff; Diédhiou grateful for the work they have done in getting him back to full fitness after sustaining knee ligament damage back in October.

[PHILINFRANCE]

1 hour ago, DingleRed said:

Correct, 27th January 2018 against QPR

There were emotional scenes in the celebrations as he ran over to head physio Steve Allen and the rest of the coaching staff; Diédhiou grateful for the work they have done in getting him back to full fitness after sustaining knee ligament damage back in October.

Thank You, it was of course Steve Allen.

I am quite embarrassed that I can recall the names of quite a few idiots who have 'graced' Ashton Gate over the years, but this man's name escaped me.

I wonder whether things would have been the same if he was still here - perhaps he didn't get on too well with MA.

Steve Allen – Clinical Specialist Physiotherapist 

 

With over 30 years experience in professional football physiotherapy, Steve Allen has previously held posts as Head Physiotherapist at Wimbledon FC (The Crazy Gang), Crystal Palace FC, Cardiff City FC, West Ham United FC, Charlton Athletic FC, Portsmouth FC and Bristol City FC. Steve has also worked as a Specialist Musculoskeletal Physiotherapist at Ashtead Hospital and at Wimbledon Clinics, Park Side Hospital where he provided specialist consultations for people undergoing total knee replacements and ACL reconstructions. 

 

Steve obtained his Batchelors Degree in Physiotherapy from Brunel University in 2007, having already received a BSc (Hons) in Sports Science in 2001, plus the Football Association Treatment and Management of Injury Diploma and the Football Association Advanced Trauma Medical Management qualification, during his time in professional football. In 2017, Steve picked up the highly-prestigious honour of FMPA Longstanding Service Award. VIEW VIDEO. 

 

Steve is an expert physiotherapist specialising in the diagnosis treatment and rehabilitation of acute and chronic musculoskeletal and sports injuries especially in the field of football.  He offers years of experience and has a reputation for solving problems by addressing all aspects of his patients’ clinical condition. This holistic approach is achieved through careful analysis of human movement and function. Steve’s aim is not only to accurately diagnose and treat your condition but to also investigate the underlying causes and to help prevent future

problems from arising. Steve believes in an individualised approach utilising treatments including, mobilisation and manipulation of joints, soft tissue techniques, instrument assisted soft tissue mobilisation, cupping, acupuncture, electrotherapy, taping and specific exercise regimes.

 

Here he is:

 

 

[DingleRed]

5 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Thank You, it was of course Steve Allen.

I am quite embarrassed that I can recall the names of quite a few idiots who have 'graced' Ashton Gate over the years, but this man's name escaped me.

I wonder whether things would have been the same if he was still here - perhaps he didn't get on too well with MA.

 

 

I think it was more the case that he wanted to return "home" after 5 years in Bristol. Clinic is based in Sutton. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

25 minutes ago, DingleRed said:

I think it was more the case that he wanted to return "home" after 5 years in Bristol. Clinic is based in Sutton. 

I am sure you are correct and, most certainly, know more about him than I do.

I was just putting 2 + 2 together and wondering whether, as he came to City with Steve Cotterill (I believe they had connections going back to their days at Wimbledon and, later, Portsmouth) there might have been some negative feelings following SC's apparently acrimonious departure from the club.

[Davefevs]

I think City should spend money doing an independent audit on the whole training, injury, rehab process as suggested by @Sheltons Army many weeks ago.  That should include the Specialists too, because we are hearing that we are now getting second opinions, e.g. Pato.

But at least it’s stopped the conspiracy theories that Williams is refusing to play because his mate Walsh isn’t getting a contract, etc etc.

[Red Skin]

28 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think City should spend money doing an independent audit on the whole training, injury, rehab process as suggested by @Sheltons Army many weeks ago.  That should include the Specialists too, because we are hearing that we are now getting second opinions, e.g. Pato.

But at least it’s stopped the conspiracy theories that Williams is refusing to play because his mate Walsh isn’t getting a contract, etc etc.

This needs to happen.   If I was a professional player looking to sign for a new club, the competence of the medical staff would definitely be a consideration.

We had a fantastic set up under Cotterill.   I can't recall any really long-term injuries other than Mark Little's shoulder injury which was a freak accident.

Something is badly wrong with what we are doing and if it is because of some clown Ashton brought in, as some have alleged, then there should be repercussions for him.   

[Phileas Fogg]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I think City should spend money doing an independent audit on the whole training, injury, rehab process as suggested by @Sheltons Army many weeks ago.  That should include the Specialists too, because we are hearing that we are now getting second opinions, e.g. Pato.

But at least it’s stopped the conspiracy theories that Williams is refusing to play because his mate Walsh isn’t getting a contract, etc etc.

Agreed - I get the impression lots of the public facing stuff is good. Our profile, our stadium, training ground etc.

It's the inner stuff that still needs work. Harder for us as fans to quantify this, but management, player ID, style of player and now the medical side all clearly need work. 

[Ivorguy]

 

The problem is the whole Bristol Sport set up.

Nothing will change for us until SLmoves on.  We are in a decades long rut of his making.

As someone else said a few days ago, in any other business sphere S L would have been long gone.  But he is fireproof to failure as he owns everything..  So this raises the fundamental modern football question about the nature of personal ownership of clubs.  The model is so so dated.  It worked under Harry Dolman, but it won’t work/hasn’t worked under SL.

Of course, there is an answer - community owned and run clubs; yet for that to happen there needs to be a change to the structure of professional football.  OK I agree that this is wishful thinking, but one thing could facilitate the change, namely fans staying away.  Maybe, just maybe, Covid will provide the catalyst for this which in turn will enable change to happen, and the game to survive for new generations of fans.

TV coverage in its many forms beats a cold January evening  0-0 draw at Ashton Gate. The cost of attending is now far far too high for the quality of entertainment offered in the modern game as played at the top levels.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[redrob]

On 08/01/2021 at 13:05, Phileas Fogg said:

Very interesting post. You also tend to notice that often it's taller ectomorphic players who have recurring injuries, especially ones who play in quite a battling way. Andy Carroll and Milan Djuric to name but two, especially as forwards have to twist and turn a lot. 

Tall players without the muscular strength to carry their frames? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 08/01/2021 at 10:57, steviestevieneville said:

Are you serious ? Confirmed by the media . Don’t come back with “it’s not on the os “ bollocks either because it won’t be. 
Please answer my question to you. 
Do you think we’ve been unlucky with injuries for THREE years ? 

I make it since relatively early in 2017/18- slightly above 3 if anything, and in any case the 4th season.

[Lanterne Rouge]

4 hours ago, redrob said:

Tall players without the muscular strength to carry their frames? 

The exception being Aden Flint - hardly ever injured despite playing an enormous amount of minutes. I wonder how he did it?

[old_eastender]

On 08/01/2021 at 09:57, City1984 said:

This may have been covered in the various threads regarding our injuries but am I right in thinking we brought in the fitness guy from arsenal who was there under Arsen  Wenger when they had a **** ton of unexplainable injuries?

 

On 08/01/2021 at 10:27, tin said:

The dots are being joined on the Gregor - Joe Williams thread, on the back of Williams reportedly being unhappy at the medical treatment he's received. 

Long story short, you're talking about Mark Ashton's mate Andy Rolls, who was sacked at West Ham when they were beseiged with injuries. 

Basically, the buck stops with Ashton. He's brought in his old mate, despite a dire track record for similar negligence at both Arsenal and West Ham. Our injury record since 2018 is not a coincidence, IMO. 

 

This says it all - Ashton OUT

[Mad Cyril]

I really don't know why we ever got rid of the old school medical team we had in the 70s and 80s.

Running up and down the steps in the Dolman seems a sensible way to treat ACL's and leg fractures.

[Lanterne Rouge]

6 minutes ago, Mad Cyril said:

I really don't know why we ever got rid of the old school medical team we had in the 70s and 80s.

Running up and down the steps in the Dolman seems a sensible way to treat ACL's and leg fractures.

With or without a rucksack full of wet sand?