Nogbad the Bad Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 28 minutes ago, City Rocker said: This thread reminds me why I've never visited the politics forum (or what ever it's called) section on OTIB. Not that racial prejudice or the opposition to it have anything to do with politics, but hey ho. There are lots of really good posters on here whose opinions and views on football I value and admire. It would be so disappointing to discover any of these people are blinkered, bigoted ignoramuses. I'd rather not know. Posters come on OTIB because they have one thing in common, a strong interest in Bristol City F.C. They come in all ages, from all backgrounds and life experiences, so a love of BCFC may be just about the only thing they have in common. Why would any of us then expect them to share our views on everything else? Last time I looked - a long time ago - there was a clique on the politics forum who are far more interested in ganging up on people on that forum than discussing matters BCFC on this one. The difference as I see it is the football forum is almost entirely for friendly discussion with likeminded people but many posters who frequent the politics forum go theresimply to argue, and generally vent their spleen on people they really don't like and who they have nothing in common with except BCFC. Ne'er the twain shall meet, so a complete waste of time, and the best thing is (to at least try) to avoid getting involved in non football 'discussions' on OTIB altogether imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogbad the Bad Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 13 hours ago, And Its Smith said: Once upon a time, an unhinged man wrote something on the internet. The end. I remember that crazed poster. Kept on going on about 'Golden Holden' or some such deranged nonsense! Added it to thread after thread hoping it would catch on. How we laughed!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
formerly known as ivan Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 2 hours ago, JamesBCFC said: https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/ Black/African Americans are just 13.4% of the population, from the 2019 census. Whites over 60%. So with 4x less black people the numbers of them shot to death by police are roughly half as many as they are for white people, meaning it is 2x more likely to happen to a black person. The precise numbers would actually be more skewed to a higher rate. (60.1/13.4 gives 4.485..., so 4.49x (at 3 significant figures) more white people than black people. 4 year average of 414.5 white people killed by police, 4 year average of 223.25 black people killed. 223.25/414.5 0.5386... so 0.539 at 3 s.f. 0.539x4.49 is 2.42011. Making the deaths of black people at the hands of police 2.42011 times more likely when you account for their total make up of the population). Trying to word this as to not get the racist card thrown at me... The stats are shocking but surely you need more to back this up. What if there are double the number of black people committing armed robbery and there for more likely to be end up being shot than more petty crime? Disclaimer: I’m not saying you are more likely to commit armed robbery if you are black! I am just asking about the types of crimes that result in a police shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said: I remember that crazed poster. Kept on going on about 'Golden Holden' or some such deranged nonsense! Added it to thread after thread hoping it would catch on. How we laughed!! Yeah that was quality bants Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, formerly known as ivan said: Trying to word this as to not get the racist card thrown at me... The stats are shocking but surely you need more to back this up. What if there are double the number of black people committing armed robbery and there for more likely to be end up being shot than more petty crime? Disclaimer: I’m not saying you are more likely to commit armed robbery if you are black! I am just asking about the types of crimes that result in a police shooting. See the post I put after, which quoted Sir Leigh. I quoted some snippets of other sources which had percentages for unarmed people as well. Second last post of previous page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Leigh of Somerset Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, tts_city said: All very interesting, whats it got to do with the UK and the current kneeling tokenism before each game ? In terms of the 'interesting' stats, the question of what they have to do with the UK is, I think, a fair one to pose. Assuming that it is a credible source, this might help (same source as used for USA figures above - UK figures over 10 years); https://www.statista.com/statistics/1122775/deaths-in-police-custody-in-the-uk-2019-by-ethnicity/ These stats show what I think we all know in that the UK is a very different place than is the USA. In the UK it appears that the deaths of white people is proportionate to the population (85% of deaths in 86% of the population) and, therefore, using a rather sad and soiled logic, the numbers stack up as one might hope!? The 'interesting' part of these statistics is the comparison between black people and asian people. In terms of the current 'taking the knee' tokenism (as you put it), I personally think that its impact and importance diminishes with each sporting event that it precedes purely because the more a message is hammered home the less we take notice of it to the point of actually ultimately rebuffing the message - human nature, I'm afraid. I think the act/symbol/gesture did its job but it's now time to move on from that and for politicians to play their major part in resolving the identified issues by creating the appropriate environment in which all ethnicities have an equal chance to flourish. However, it can't all be down to the politicians because you can't remove hate/bigotry/bias from any population through legislation. It will need a societal change and it's a real 'hearts and minds' challenge. All just my personal opinion, of course........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, Sir Leigh of Somerset said: These stats show what I think we all know in that the UK is a very different place than is the USA. In the UK it appears that the deaths of white people is proportionate to the population (85% of deaths in 86% of the population) and, therefore, using a rather sad and soiled logic, the numbers stack up as one might hope!? Did you look at the stats you quote? These show the death rate of white individuals is about 1/3 of the death rate of black individuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2015 Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, Sir Leigh of Somerset said: In terms of the 'interesting' stats, the question of what they have to do with the UK is, I think, a fair one to pose. Assuming that it is a credible source, this might help (same source as used for USA figures above - UK figures over 10 years); https://www.statista.com/statistics/1122775/deaths-in-police-custody-in-the-uk-2019-by-ethnicity/ These stats show what I think we all know in that the UK is a very different place than is the USA. In the UK it appears that the deaths of white people is proportionate to the population (85% of deaths in 86% of the population) and, therefore, using a rather sad and soiled logic, the numbers stack up as one might hope!? The 'interesting' part of these statistics is the comparison between black people and asian people. In terms of the current 'taking the knee' tokenism (as you put it), I personally think that its impact and importance diminishes with each sporting event that it precedes purely because the more a message is hammered home the less we take notice of it to the point of actually ultimately rebuffing the message - human nature, I'm afraid. This is a true reflection on how facts do not care about people's feelings. Most big organisations in UK have quotas to fill on who is offered interviews and positions, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Leigh of Somerset Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 minute ago, Hxj said: Did you look at the stats you quote? These show the death rate of white individuals is about 1/3 of black individuals. Apols if I've misquoted, misunderstood or misinterpreted the stats but could you explain how you've calculated your number there. To me, if white people form 86% of the population and account for 85% of 'police deaths', that might be as we'd expect. I thought the numbers for the deaths of black people v asian people were interesting because they're a sort of mirror image - 8% of people killed were black who represent 3% of the population while 3% of people killed were asian who represent 8% of the population. They're the numbers that seem out of synch but I didn't try to draw any conclusions from this because I don't know why that would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 It's a straight comparison of 85/86 which is approximately 1 and 8/3 which is approximately 3. I suspect that you were blinded by the figures for Asian individuals who, using the same figures, of 3/8 are about a third as likely to be killed as white individuals and 1/9 as likely to be killed as black individuals. The overal balance for white individuals masks the inequity elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Leigh of Somerset Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 9 minutes ago, Hxj said: It's a straight comparison of 85/86 which is approximately 1 and 8/3 which is approximately 3. I suspect that you were blinded by the figures for Asian individuals who, using the same figures, of 3/8 are about a third as likely to be killed as white individuals and 1/9 as likely to be killed as black individuals. The overal balance for white individuals masks the inequity elsewhere. Yeh, I see where you're at now. I think I was blinded by a number of things (including the sheer scale of the carnage over the pond) but mostly by my mathematical inability! All it needs now is for someone to debunk the logic of my thought on 'taking the knee' etc and I'm right out of here; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richwwtk Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Clutton Caveman said: I can't keep up. I just don't understand why it is wrong to say "all lives matter" The statement All Lives Matter is, of course, not wrong when taken on its own. It has become an issue because it has become a standard response amongst some types to the Black Lives Matter slogan, as some kind of attempt to hide the fact that black people do, in everyday life, have more obstacles to overcome and are treated markedly differently, to white people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireSection Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 FOOTBALL PEOPLE, FOOTBALL, LETS GET BACK TO FOOTBALL BEFORE ANYONE GETS HURT....... (YES I KNOW I'M SHOUTING). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red panda Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Sir Leigh of Somerset said: ... All it needs now is for someone to debunk the logic of my thought on 'taking the knee' etc and I'm right out of here; Just because the gesture might have less effect as time goes on doesn't mean that it now has a negative effect. Will that do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Dicks' Barmy Army Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 10 hours ago, SecretSam said: Nope. As for "case in point", what on earth are you on about? 10 hours ago, lenred said: Getting yourself in a bit of a tangle? Are the usual double act back replying to the same replies again I just don't have the words to express how much I like this post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Dicks' Barmy Army Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 9 hours ago, IAmNick said: Err the accepted boring insult is actually that people are in their parents basements, not that they're upstairs. Lazy! and here's another Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lenred Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 14 minutes ago, Alan Dicks' Barmy Army said: Are the usual double act back replying to the same replies again I just don't have the words to express how much I like this post! 13 minutes ago, Alan Dicks' Barmy Army said: and here's another Ever thought it might be you? No, thought not.....! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Leigh of Somerset Posted January 12, 2021 Report Share Posted January 12, 2021 3 hours ago, red panda said: Just because the gesture might have less effect as time goes on doesn't mean that it now has a negative effect. Will that do? You've debunked it so I'm right out of here....... Seriously though, if the gesture does have less effect over time (and it will), then even if it doesn't actually have a negative effect wouldn't it still be better to find a new approach and re-energise the campaign? I think the 3 big questions are 1) when is it the right time to stop 'taking the knee', 2) will it be productive to carry on with some form of new symbolic act and 3) if so, what form should that symbolic act take? Personally, I'd like to see more governmental/societal substance over symbolic style if you get my drift but I accept that perhaps the latter is needed in the short/medium term to achieve the former in the longer term. But then again, what do I know..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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