Mr Popodopolous Posted January 16, 2021 Report Share Posted January 16, 2021 Still difficult to understand how Mel Morris led them into this situation. Consider: Playoff final and injury saw late season collapse in season 2014/15. Good young talented footballing squad at that time. He comes in 2015- invests, not only in the first team but the Stadium and the Training Facilities. The former feels overpriced but nonetheless improved- along with Revenue Streams. The latter was already producing players such as Hughes and Hendrick and surely only improves with Investment. To add to all that, he's not only a Businessman, who declared he intended not to lose money- he's from Derby and if reports from the time to be believed, used to go to games- on the Popside said one (their equivalent of behind the goal that all clubs had- their EastEnd?) Okay I don't know the layout but assume "Popside" one of the more raucous bits of grounds back then? As a fan, from Derby- with all of the above, he of all people should have been a good custodian for a club that would clearly have been one of his passions. Like Coates or Gibson- or in some other respects, like SL, though unsure when he started going to City games? Yet was not! Last 3 are all good custodians, ie Coates, Gibson, Lansdown but with slightly different backstories? Anyway Morris should've been one of them, from that starting point tbh. Interesting to know what his final net spend as owner will be, or will have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Londoner Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 14 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Still difficult to understand how Mel Morris led them into this situation. Consider: Playoff final and injury saw late season collapse in season 2014/15. Good young talented footballing squad at that time. He comes in 2015- invests, not only in the first team but the Stadium and the Training Facilities. The former feels overpriced but nonetheless improved- along with Revenue Streams. The latter was already producing players such as Hughes and Hendrick and surely only improves with Investment. To add to all that, he's not only a Businessman, who declared he intended not to lose money- he's from Derby and if reports from the time to be believed, used to go to games- on the Popside said one (their equivalent of behind the goal that all clubs had- their EastEnd?) Okay I don't know the layout but assume "Popside" one of the more raucous bits of grounds back then? As a fan, from Derby- with all of the above, he of all people should have been a good custodian for a club that would clearly have been one of his passions. Like Coates or Gibson- or in some other respects, like SL, though unsure when he started going to City games? Yet was not! Last 3 are all good custodians, ie Coates, Gibson, Lansdown but with slightly different backstories? Anyway Morris should've been one of them, from that starting point tbh. Interesting to know what his final net spend as owner will be, or will have been. Maybe that’s part of the problem, heart rules over head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 hours ago, walnutroof said: Maybe that’s part of the problem, heart rules over head Yeah true. A rich fan as an owner sounds great on paper, but if someone is too close to, too invested/tied up in something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 Hi @Hxj You seem fairly well informed on the Derby issue, the complexity of their current position off the pitch. Read on the Derby forum that both Pride Park and Moor Farm are ACV (Asset of Community Value). Any idea how secured loans against such property might work- or what might take precedence? Adds another layer of complexity potentially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Hi @Hxj You seem fairly well informed on the Derby issue, the complexity of their current position off the pitch. Read on the Derby forum that both Pride Park and Moor Farm are ACV (Asset of Community Value). Any idea how secured loans against such property might work- or what might take precedence? Adds another layer of complexity potentially. The ACV position is a red herring. If an ACV is to be sold then the 'community' have a couple of months to buy it first, like to see that happening . The local council also need to take the existence of an ACV ruling into account when granting planning permission or they can compulsorily purchase the site (at it's market value). That is it. Neither Gabay nor Dell want the properties, they will simply want their money back along with interest and any default interest, fees and costs. Worst case scenario they will simply stop DCFC playing at the ground and using the training ground - game over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midred Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, Hxj said: The ACV position is a red herring. If an ACV is to be sold then the 'community' have a couple of months to buy it first, like to see that happening . The local council also need to take the existence of an ACV ruling into account when granting planning permission or they can compulsorily purchase the site (at it's market value). That is it. Neither Gabay nor Dell want the properties, they will simply want their money back along with interest and any default interest, fees and costs. Worst case scenario they will simply stop DCFC playing at the ground and using the training ground - game over. They could share Burton's ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted January 17, 2021 Report Share Posted January 17, 2021 28 minutes ago, Midred said: They could share Burton's ground? Or Forest`s............................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 Interesting line on Derby. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9161181/Manchester-City-infuriated-Derby-block-permanent-goalkeeper-Scott-Carson.html Haha- if true things must be bad! They might need the £500k loan fee to pay wages! Mates rates- but that aside... Carson it mentions £500k loan fees, unclear if that's a season, twice a season or to cover wages. Didn't even realise there would be a loan fee for a 35 year old Carson! Who knows if it's wages covered + loan fee or loan fee that covers the wages. Quote Derby County have angered Manchester City by blocking Pep Guardiola's attempt to sign Scott Carson on a permanent deal, because of the Championship club's insistence on collecting a loan fee this month to help pay overdue wages to their players. The former England goalkeeper, 35, has been on loan at the Etihad Stadium for the past two seasons, with City paying Derby instalments of around £500,000 twice a year to cover the loan fee and Carson's wages. But they are struggling to open negotiations with his parent club. Derby are unwilling to cancel their loan agreement with City for Carson as they need the £500,000 due this month to help pay the wages of other players at Pride Park after failing to pay Wayne Rooney's squad their full salaries last month. The first instalment of this season's fee was paid by City last August. Is that two instalments per season which cover the wages basically? Quote Chief executive Stephen Pearce told Derby's players last week that the club were unable to pay the rest of their December wages until the takeover was signed off. But that did not stop them announcing the appointment of Rooney as manager on a permanent basis two days later. Rooney is also yet to receive his December wages, and neither have coaches Shay Given and Liam Rosenior, with all three remaining on their previous contracts despite being promoted. Classic potential distraction bomb, to accelerate the appointment of Rooney. Everyone is now talking about the retirement of a great player- a great player taking his first steps into proper full time management- voila, nobody is talking about the wages or cash flow issue! For a bit anyway- the more serious issues might soon manifest themselves once more, but then Morris does seem to like gimmicks and spectacular PR heists. This snippet also backs up what @Hxj has been saying. Quote Derby's precarious position is exacerbated by a loan from American private equity firm MSD Capital, who will take control at Pride Park if the club default on the repayments. It's funny, quite a lot seem to forget this on their forum- nothing about Gabay though, albeit this was still showing at CH in the last couple of days- albeit with Morris' companies (Gellaw Newco 202 and 204). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 A little bit of looking around elsewhere- and this has been dated by the 9-10% interest rates on the loans to Southampton but from Off The Pitch last Autumn... Quote Offthepitch.com can also reveal that Southampton's £80 million loan with MSD includes a penalty clause to escape from the loan at 25 per cent. Not a subscriber- it's the publicly viewable bit but ooooof!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 David Craig on Sky just now before Derby v Bournemouth sounded very uncertain about their future and seemed convinced the takeover was not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 Woukd you buy a club in threat of relegation, and in their financial state? I wouldn’t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 5 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Woukd you buy a club in threat of relegation, and in their financial state? I wouldn’t. I suppose if they had some valuable assets but as others have said, Pride Park is hardly prime real estate in Mayfair is it? Another strange stat they mentioned which I found hard to believe is that this is only the tenth time Derby have played Bournemouth. That can`t be right can it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 Bielik, the player who shouldn`t even be out there tonight, has just put WRDC 1 up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weepywall Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 12 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Woukd you buy a club in threat of relegation, and in their financial state? I wouldn’t. No I wouldn't but maybe there's a Jordanian billionaire that would Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 8 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said: Bielik, the player who shouldn`t even be out there tonight, has just put WRDC 1 up. Why not, what have I missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: Why not, what have I missed? He was the one that should have been sent off v Rotherham wasn`t he or am I being very, very stupid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 1 minute ago, Lanterne Rouge said: He was the one that should have been sent off v Rotherham wasn`t he or am I being very, very stupid? Yes, you’re right. Ta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hxj Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 Looks like they need new ground staff as well, that’s not an £81 million pitch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 Just on a side note, not read the article yet but I wonder whether Derby have any creditors in addition to players. Be it employer tax contribution, NI, pension obligations, local small business suppliers- those tend to get shafted quite big whenever a club goes into administration, St John's Ambulance or is that free, I honestly don't know and lastly the basic other costs ie gas, electricity, water and the like. Might also add, IIRC the original deferrals from last year might also be outstanding, unsure if this is still the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loosey Boy Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 If the takeover falls through, will lead to Administration and 10 points deduction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 26 minutes ago, Loosey Boy said: If the takeover falls through, will lead to Administration and 10 points deduction Not 10 points, but 12. I'm still treating with caution the prospects of their imminent financial demise. Fresh loans from MSD, or other sources could help keep the show on the road albeit that £500k overdue is according to the article, only for December. No idea what % of monthly wage bill it might represent. Some on their forum are talking about new signings once player sales done!? That aside, if they do take fresh loans, they surely wouldn't come cheap, especially from Dell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 3 hours ago, Hxj said: Looks like they need new ground staff as well, that’s not an £81 million pitch! An £81m stadium doesn’t leave much left over to pay for a pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 Perhaps another unexpected and unwanted expense. It looks as though Derby will have to pay Richard Keogh £2M. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9165003/Derby-set-pay-Richard-Keogh-2million-won-appeal-dismissal.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 In theory, that's the wage deficit bumped up by a factor of 4! In practice, wonder if it would be paid over time, could be paid over time. Might Keogh be classed a football creditor or a more general one? I believe the former have stronger rights with the rules and when it comes to administration- Football Creditors rule etc, not read up on it for a while...could be classed as exceptional costs of litigation. Might Derby seek to appeal it? Indeed they might based on the article. Quote Derby are understood to be preparing their own appeal against the tribunal’s verdict, although it has been claimed the club could be stalling due to financial problems as owner Mel Morris seeks to complete a proposed takeover by Derventio Holdings. They're surely bang to rights in fairness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 3 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said: Perhaps another unexpected and unwanted expense. It looks as though Derby will have to pay Richard Keogh £2M. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9165003/Derby-set-pay-Richard-Keogh-2million-won-appeal-dismissal.html Ouch. From memory sacking him was a clever way of avoiding having to pay up his contract mutually. Another eff up by Morris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 4 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Ouch. From memory sacking him was a clever way of avoiding having to pay up his contract mutually. Another eff up by Morris. Think sacking him might also have helped on the FFP front- could class it or attempt to argue to class it as 'costs of exceptional litigation'- unsure if that bit would still hold but I'll forget FFP for a second. Subject to appeal (on what grounds- who pays legal fees)- it's another creditor to add to the list! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted January 19, 2021 Report Share Posted January 19, 2021 Just now, Mr Popodopolous said: Think sacking him might also have helped on the FFP front- could class it or attempt to argue to class it as 'costs of exceptional litigation'- unsure if that bit would still hold but subject to appeal (on what grounds- who pays legal fees)- it's another creditor to add to the list! Yes, that’s exactly the reason, excludable from FFP afaik. Oops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 Now I remember, Sam Rush was sacked in 2017 for Breach of Fiduciary Duty, or similar. Derby wanted quite a hefty whack of compensation- as well as indemnity for Future Losses yet to crystalise/in case they crystalised. Derby were suing him- yet guess who won the Employment Tribunal? Two separate cases of course. Two separate Sam Rush cases. This case with Keogh wholly separate. I make it a successful penalty kick (for which read failed Derby appeal), now vs 10 men, away from Sacked Employees 2 v Derby County 0, but the final whistle yet to blow on this one. The case against him was separate, settled out of court but could details have been in the- as yet unreleased- 2018/19 accounts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 As far as Football Creditors go, I'm struggling albeit I've only skimmed Google Search quickly, It's really unclear- to me anyway - what category of creditor Keogh might be classed as, provided the latest appeal doesn't get it thrown out! Were Keogh a Football Creditor, this would surely give them some (more) problems though. He is not a present employee yet he was found to be an employee who was unfairly dismissed it would seem! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted January 20, 2021 Report Share Posted January 20, 2021 9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: As far as Football Creditors go, I'm struggling albeit I've only skimmed Google Search quickly, It's really unclear- to me anyway - what category of creditor Keogh might be classed as, provided the latest appeal doesn't get it thrown out! Were Keogh a Football Creditor, this would surely give them some (more) problems though. He is not a present employee yet he was found to be an employee who was unfairly dismissed it would seem! This can't be good, another £2m owed. How it's owed I don't know. I imagine it will be as a fine, that would probably mean they could ask for time to pay, and I don't think the courts worry about chasing things like this up too quickly. That said, it's still £2m owed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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