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Derby - Administration on the cards


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2 hours ago, Lew-T said:

I don’t see Derby that big of a club to be honest. They’ve never travelled well down here either!

Depends what you mean by big. Think you’ll find their average attendance over the last 20 years or so has regularly been 25K - 30K. 

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Think they're a fairly decent sized club. 

I have little love for their current owner in particular, though his recent tenure given that not only is he a chairman, not only a fan, not only a matchday fan ie he apparently went in late 1960s, early 1970s but is from Derby itself.

How someone in that context made such a mess of things is quite something tbh!

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11 minutes ago, sludge said:

Depends what you mean by big. Think you’ll find their average attendance over the last 20 years or so has regularly been 25K - 30K. 

Yep - massive rise in attendance in 1998 from 17k to 29k while in the top division and maintained mid 20k - 30k since then.

Before that they were always around 13k-17k or even down to 10k in the 80's.

 

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8 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

Yep - massive rise in attendance in 1998 from 17k to 29k while in the top division and maintained mid 20k - 30k since then.

Before that they were always around 13k-17k or even down to 10k in the 80's.

 

Attendances were right down in the Football League from early 1980s to maybe early 1990s. Variety of factors but that's reasonable for those times. Not stellar but reasonable.

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8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Attendances were right down in the Football League from early 1980s to maybe early 1990s. Variety of factors but that's reasonable for those times. Not stellar but reasonable.

A 12k rise in 1998 to 29k due to the new stadium.

The Baseball Ground was a dump and eventually had a limit of 18k.

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59 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Nixon. Apologies for the source.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/13737376/derby-knight-sibley-pay-wages-wayne-rooney-administration/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunfootballtwitter&utm_source=Twitter

Might have to sell players such as Knight and Sibley in order to pay wages.

It mentions administration or what I said about MSD gaining the club being possible.

Says 14 day notice for players being able to leave due to unpaid wages can soon be invoked.

Mentions EFL and possible punishment in the form of points deductions if that happens.

Also says in the article:

"County are set to speak to the EFL about their issues in an attempt to avoid punishment."

Give no quarter, says I.

I see no justification here! What do we think @chinapig@Davefevs @downendcity @Hxj

They lost Bogle and Lowe in the summer for much less than they’d have expected to get.

I’d be taking a close look at a few.  The two above are obvious ones to look at, plus Bird and Buchanan.  Position wise Sibley as the forward would tick a lot of boxes for me in terms of playing one striker, one forward in between.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

They lost Bogle and Lowe in the summer for much less than they’d have expected to get.

I’d be taking a close look at a few.  The two above are obvious ones to look at, plus Bird and Buchanan.  Position wise Sibley as the forward would tick a lot of boxes for me in terms of playing one striker, one forward in between.

Read at most £11m combined. Some other reports (I think) suggested £8-9m for the pair.

Think there are varied players tbh. Those two have been heavily linked with the PL, the ones you suggest seem good too.

I'd also suggest the following names worthy of consideration, be it depth, first team or room for growth, or value:

Byrne- We might need two right backs this summer. Think he's a solid Championship performer, for the right price.

Clarke- See Lrrr's posts.

Bielik- Still room for growth yet a good performer at this level already. International in quite a strong side. In fact only 23!

Jozwiak- Less experienced but a lot of the same applies. Younger too, which increases growth potential. Turns 23 in April.

Waghorn. Available on a free potentially this summer. Not top of my list but has shown himself capable of both goals, assists and I assume versatility along the front line too. Are there any disciplinary or attitude red flags though?

Could a fresh start reignite him a bit? Experienced but not too old. Depending in form, fitness etc of course.

Of course the two Poland internationals might have Brexit as a factor.

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23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Read at most £11m combined. Some other reports (I think) suggested £8-9m for the pair.

Think there are varied players tbh. Those two have been heavily linked with the PL, the ones you suggest seem good too.

I'd also suggest the following names worthy of consideration, be it depth, first team or room for growth, or value:

Byrne- We might need two right backs this summer. Think he's a solid Championship performer, for the right price.

Clarke- See Lrrr's posts.

Bielik- Still room for growth yet a good performer at this level already. International in quite a strong side. In fact only 23!

Jozwiak- Less experienced but a lot of the same applies. Younger too, which increases growth potential. Turns 23 in April.

Waghorn. Available on a free potentially this summer. Not top of my list but has shown himself capable of both goals, assists and I assume versatility along the front line too. Are there any disciplinary or attitude red flags though?

Could a fresh start reignite him a bit? Experienced but not too old. Depending in form, fitness etc of course.

Of course the two Poland internationals might have Brexit as a factor.

If we're playing wingers he would be a welcome addition, not sure how much they paid however.

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9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Their fans definitely wouldn't agree with me, but they would surely be best off taking the 12 point hit, and looking to rebuild- a long hard road yes, but to rebuild in League One. Strong academy, keep some and sell some- sound footing, new prudent owner and they would work their way back I expect.

Also an interesting post- when Mel Morris took over he inherited an excellent scenario! On their forum.

Both him and Chansiri at Sheffield Wednesday took over clubs in an excellent and a stable position respectively.

Going in to admin would mean the most promising youngsters leaving for next to nothing. A better worst-case option for me would be to sell the older players to cover the shortfall in cash, even if it means failing P&S. Better to keep our best players (and receive more cash in the long term) and take a points deduction than take a points deduction and sell them for very little. Suggestions of £12m in wages to cover until the end of the season (when we're left with very few high earners on the books). We're currently set to be down to 11 players staying at the club next season who didn't come through our academy system - and we're actively trying to offload two of them.

A lot of people aren't aware that we had considerable debt at the time when Mel took over and (most of) the previous owners wanted out.

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The former I think.

I assume he is funding them up to and including FFP limits. General funding there's no limit on, but that would basically be Balance Sheet or Cash Flow. Owner loans that sort of thing.

Again he can put in as much equity as he likes but beyond the limits, the rest doesn't count towards FFP.

Might also add, a couple of interesting theories on Derby forum (or couple of straws being clutched).

1) This is brinkmanship by Morris to force the new would be owners to get it through and now.

2) Michael Dell will inherit the club and all its assets given the loans secured against these. Whether he has any ambitions in this respect who the hell knows! Given he has loaned many clubs cash through MSD, I'd be surprised.

Also theories that it could be a secondary attempt to pressure Dell to agree if his loans are a stumbling block.

I'm certain that this season means breaking even (from an accounting point of view) equals being right up against the P&S limit. Without Covid, Mel wouldn't have had to put a penny in for us to be up against that limit. However, due to Covid, he has to cover the loss of earnings due to the obvious. Cash he doesn't appear to have at the moment.

The delay is wages being paid appears to be a case of the Sheikh saying the money is on the way (supposedly sent in December), with him also agreeing to pick up the wages from December onwards. Everything has (supposedly) been agreed and signed off... just waiting for the cash transfer. 'Imminent' since November though so it is beginning to sound very fishy.

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1 hour ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Going in to admin would mean the most promising youngsters leaving for next to nothing. A better worst-case option for me would be to sell the older players to cover the shortfall in cash, even if it means failing P&S. Better to keep our best players (and receive more cash in the long term) and take a points deduction than take a points deduction and sell them for very little. Suggestions of £12m in wages to cover until the end of the season (when we're left with very few high earners on the books). We're currently set to be down to 11 players staying at the club next season who didn't come through our academy system - and we're actively trying to offload two of them.

A lot of people aren't aware that we had considerable debt at the time when Mel took over and (most of) the previous owners wanted out.

I'm certain that this season means breaking even (from an accounting point of view) equals being right up against the P&S limit. Without Covid, Mel wouldn't have had to put a penny in for us to be up against that limit. However, due to Covid, he has to cover the loss of earnings due to the obvious. Cash he doesn't appear to have at the moment.

The delay is wages being paid appears to be a case of the Sheikh saying the money is on the way (supposedly sent in December), with him also agreeing to pick up the wages from December onwards. Everything has (supposedly) been agreed and signed off... just waiting for the cash transfer. 'Imminent' since November though so it is beginning to sound very fishy.

Maybe he sent the cash using Yodel.

 

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It's interesting that the spat over FFP was about the sale of the stadium to the owner Morris:

Morris bought Derby's stadium via a new company, Gellaw Newco 202 Limited, for £81.1m according to Land Registry records, on 28 June 2018, two days before the 30 June year end for the club's 2017-18 financial accounts

I take it this means Morris will retain ownership of the stadium if the club is sold or goes bust, an astute move on his part if so but not so good for those owed money by the club.

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9 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

It's interesting that the spat over FFP was about the sale of the stadium to the owner Morris:

Morris bought Derby's stadium via a new company, Gellaw Newco 202 Limited, for £81.1m according to Land Registry records, on 28 June 2018, two days before the 30 June year end for the club's 2017-18 financial accounts

I take it this means Morris will retain ownership of the stadium if the club is sold or goes bust, an astute move on his part if so but not so good for those owed money by the club.

Depends on the terms of the MSD loan.

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26 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

It's interesting that the spat over FFP was about the sale of the stadium to the owner Morris:

Morris bought Derby's stadium via a new company, Gellaw Newco 202 Limited, for £81.1m according to Land Registry records, on 28 June 2018, two days before the 30 June year end for the club's 2017-18 financial accounts

I take it this means Morris will retain ownership of the stadium if the club is sold or goes bust, an astute move on his part if so but not so good for those owed money by the club.

A football stadium only retains it’s value if it’s being used by a team who plays football at a standard that generates sufficient income to pay the rent. It’s not the same as, for example, an office block where if one tenant leaves another moves in and the value remains the same.  There is also the issue of non match day revenue going to the stadium owner rather than the club. Should Derby be relegated and attendance falls then they might not be able to pay the rent and they become a Midlands version of Bristol Rovers. Then what you’ve got is just the value of the land. That’s unlikely but possible. Darlington is an extreme example of a club having a large stadium it couldn’t afford though the circumstances were different. Then there’s Coventry who don’t own their ground and play at Birmingham’s ground. 

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12 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Nixon. Apologies for the source.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/13737376/derby-knight-sibley-pay-wages-wayne-rooney-administration/amp/?utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=sunfootballtwitter&utm_source=Twitter

Might have to sell players such as Knight and Sibley in order to pay wages.

It mentions administration or what I said about MSD gaining the club being possible.

Says 14 day notice for players being able to leave due to unpaid wages can soon be invoked.

Mentions EFL and possible punishment in the form of points deductions if that happens.

Also says in the article:

"County are set to speak to the EFL about their issues in an attempt to avoid punishment."

Give no quarter, says I.

I see no justification here! What do we think @chinapig@Davefevs @downendcity @Hxj

In Russia they have a special word for this; Toughshitski

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2 hours ago, pongo88 said:

A football stadium only retains it’s value if it’s being used by a team who plays football at a standard that generates sufficient income to pay the rent. It’s not the same as, for example, an office block where if one tenant leaves another moves in and the value remains the same.  There is also the issue of non match day revenue going to the stadium owner rather than the club. Should Derby be relegated and attendance falls then they might not be able to pay the rent and they become a Midlands version of Bristol Rovers. Then what you’ve got is just the value of the land. That’s unlikely but possible. Darlington is an extreme example of a club having a large stadium it couldn’t afford though the circumstances were different. Then there’s Coventry who don’t own their ground and play at Birmingham’s ground. 

If nobody wants to play football there there's a chance it could be given planning permission for residences as Arsenal did with Highbury, would be worth a lot then if near a city centre.

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4 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

If nobody wants to play football there there's a chance it could be given planning permission for residences as Arsenal did with Highbury, would be worth a lot then if near a city centre.

The area around Pride Park is a bit of a dump as it's mainly industrial estates.  That said, houses and apartments are built anywhere these days.

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If any of the Derby County companies go into administration then the secured lenders (Gabay and Dell) can recover against any land and buildings held by any of the Derby County companies. So the secured lenders hold a noose around Derby's neck, not the other way around as suggested.

I doubt that the ground would be redeveloped into housing.  Pride Park as a whole really is not that sort of place.

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3 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

It's interesting that the spat over FFP was about the sale of the stadium to the owner Morris:

Morris bought Derby's stadium via a new company, Gellaw Newco 202 Limited, for £81.1m according to Land Registry records, on 28 June 2018, two days before the 30 June year end for the club's 2017-18 financial accounts

I take it this means Morris will retain ownership of the stadium if the club is sold or goes bust, an astute move on his part if so but not so good for those owed money by the club.

If DCFC is sold then I can’t imagine the new owners will want to buy the club and not own their own ground, so surely that would agree to purchase the ground from whichever of Morris's companies now owns Pride Park under a separate transaction.

If they do, I wonder what open market value the new owner’s independent valuer will place on the stadium? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Curr Avon said:

Here's an aerial view:

Pride park football ground aerial view Stock Photo - Alamy

The only good things about the Pride Park location is it's a short walk from the Brunswick pub

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3 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

If nobody wants to play football there there's a chance it could be given planning permission for residences as Arsenal did with Highbury, would be worth a lot then if near a city centre.

I am not sure it's worth that much, I stayed in the pride park travel lodge twice over the summer and a lot of the restaurant and pubs in the area had closed down, plus there is a lot of empty sites for sale around it  plus it was a long walk into town, would surly be cheeper to buy and build on one of these

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