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Derby - Administration on the cards


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The links on their forum were with:

Niasse on a free. He played with Rooney at Everton.

Tom Ince return on loan.

Then- blockbuster in the circs- a loan move for Phil Jones!?

The Man United connection would help with that.

With respect to January wages, these are due Friday based on reports.

I'd suggest that there is a case to disbar any registrations until it's determined whether they can meet the January obligations.

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https://www.sheffieldunited.news/transfer-news/report-derby-county-make-approach-for-sheffield-united-striker-billy-sharp/

Not the easiest to pull off if you have trouble meeting, and proving you can meet, your existing wage obligations? If that is the case, how do you convince a loaning club that you're good for the cash? Assuming it's not just papertalk etc.

Rejecting bids too- are they fine now? 😕

Having said that, they have an apparent wonderkid- gone for £1m, rising to £3m, to Liverpool.

Rooney is also helping out with the wages apparently- unsure he's on £90k a week though!? That seems incredible.

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One of the pundits in a newspaper column - can’t remember who, or whether Times or Telegraph - wrote a few weeks ago that Rooney’s manager’s contract was of similar liability to his playing contract. I read that as being what he was owed for the last six months as a player is now what he’s owed as a manager over the reported 2.5 year term.

if £5m a year was the correct figure for his playing contract then, that would mean about £20k a week as a manager.

Have to say that sounds a lot mire feasible. 

This sounds more feasible.

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Saw this when browsing, looking for for something else.

https://www.inbrief.co.uk/football-law/footballers-not-paid-wages/

Now clearly the world has changed greatly since this was written, but Derby players are being quite understanding IMO.

I know Sheffield Wednesday had some kind of wage issue too but a lot less written about this- could have been a one off?

Specifically Derby though, they are clearly playing for something that they cannot, or perhaps could not afford- however it can go on for months, Bury riding to promotion under Dale a notable example!

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9 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Rejecting bids too- are they fine now? 😕

How dare a club reject the first offer they receive for a player! Let's not forget the fact he's one of only 6 'defenders' we have (and we often play 5 at the back) for the rest of the season. Let's also forget the fact he's the only CB we have under contract beyond this season. He's worth more to us than just £500k even with our cash flow issues.

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7 hours ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

How dare a club reject the first offer they receive for a player! Let's not forget the fact he's one of only 6 'defenders' we have (and we often play 5 at the back) for the rest of the season. Let's also forget the fact he's the only CB we have under contract beyond this season. He's worth more to us than just £500k even with our cash flow issues.

That's fair. Still suggests matters might have eased a bit. Selling Gordon for £3m?? Don't know much about him except that he's spoken of highly but that's a big whack given age and gametime to date. Some excellent negotiators there. Would definitely ease matters.

EFL rolling up 2 years into one and excluding Covid costs. One or other, both feels unnecessary.

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So derby late again paying their players , looks like takeover isn’t happening, but :

 

Derby County manager Wayne Rooney is confident of adding players to the squad before the transfer window closes. 

"There will be players coming in in the next 48 hours," Rooney said after the Rams 1-0 victory over Bristol City at Pride Park Stadium. 

"So I'll get back to work after I have spoken to you (the media)," Rooney added.

"I am hoping to have players in, I am fairly confident there will be (players in)."

 

everything that is wrong with football, still allowed to spend  

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Derby being bailed out AGAIN by all accounts. Not only being given over the odds in money for a few youth players to cover funding by Man Utd but being given Mengi on loan. Rooney asked for a few favours no doubt.

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2 minutes ago, red kev said:

Read today that Derby and Sheffield Weds have yet to file accounts for 2018-19 although these were due last July. Any ideas why that might be ?????

Because they are in the shit.

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On 26/01/2021 at 23:09, Mr Popodopolous said:

Rooney is also helping out with the wages apparently- unsure he's on £90k a week though!? That seems incredible.

If I were earning that rate I could've clocked on post new year on the 4th and done a short day on the 5th, making sure the "Out of Office" was put on, and put the laptop away for the rest of the year.

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18 hours ago, BOSRed said:

Derby being bailed out AGAIN by all accounts. Not only being given over the odds in money for a few youth players to cover funding by Man Utd but being given Mengi on loan. Rooney asked for a few favours no doubt.

Hardly over the odds. It's no secret we have some of the most talented youngsters in the country. With Brexit and clubs no longer allowed to pick up the best youngsters in Europe, the big boys are picking off the best from those in this country instead. Reports suggest that we're getting Mengi on loan because the fees we're getting are below what they're actually worth

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Few observations on this:

  1. The OP appeared to have jumped the gun- think a few were cheering early as well but anyway.
  2. Would/should Keogh not be classed as a Football Creditor? I'd argue there might be a case but maybe that's 2+2=5? It's being appealed in any event (about the only thing that is appealing about that club).
  3. Are they all up to date on their Tax ie on Player Wages- granted clubs will have taken advantage of the tax delays, but delay and defer is quite different to waived. EFL also decided to waive requirements for clubs in terms of Transfer Embargo if overdue taxation etc, presumably with Government blessing.
  4. Those loans from MSD will still need repaying- along with any interest due.
  5. Gabay's charge also still shows not cleared as yet, see Gellaw Newco 202 and Gellaw Newco 204.
  6. Possible they have blocked the George Evans sale too.

On a side note, aren't their players generous- fancy not getting paid correctly and not only playing on but playing to win- same with Sheffield Wednesday, 13 pts from 6 games since wage issues came to light- is there a lesson??

Brighton seem generous too- would you leave a player on loan at a club when wage issues kick in at said club (see Matt Clarke). They lost £67.2m last season FFS! Why would you help out a club who have cash flow issues when you yourself made enormous (but owner covered in part no doubt) losses- I wouldn't! How much of Clarke's wages are Derby paying?

I also note Mel Morris is a CBE- he sure is...insert your own wording though, mine well and truly would differ to the official one. :)

PPS- Deferred wages and this is far from a Derby specific issue, have these also been settled in full- both at Derby and other clubs. If not they represent Football Creditors and if that's the case, I question why they are not under restrictions.

Also on another (final) side note, based on DCFCFans their fans do seem somewhat- and their ranting at Matt Hughes and claims of bias on Twitter- they do at least based on a sample, seem somewhat illiterate financially speaking in a football sense. I read OwlsTalk from time to time and they do seem to have a number who know what they're on about Accounting wise, possible sign off issues- they're thin on the ground on Derby's main forum. Perhaps I'm not reading in any great depth and extrapolating unfairly.

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1 hour ago, AnotherDerbyFan said:

Hardly over the odds. It's no secret we have some of the most talented youngsters in the country. With Brexit and clubs no longer allowed to pick up the best youngsters in Europe, the big boys are picking off the best from those in this country instead. Reports suggest that we're getting Mengi on loan because the fees we're getting are below what they're actually worth

I know you are stupid but supply and demand dictates they players are only worth what someone will actually pay. Therefore they were not undervalued.

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18 hours ago, red kev said:

Read today that Derby and Sheffield Weds have yet to file accounts for 2018-19 although these were due last July. Any ideas why that might be ?????

If I was a gambling man I'd suggest that Derby's problem is in the 'going concern' area, amd Wednsday's problem is the mess they created for themselves in putting the stadium transaction in the wrong year.

If Morris confirms that he is willing to support the finances of the 'Football Group' for the foreseeable future he is effectively creating a massive problem for himself if he pulls the plug in the next few years.

If he doesn't sign the going concern letter, then the accounts will need to reflect that, which will be catastrophic to the finances, and will also result in action from the EFL.

 

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46 minutes ago, Hxj said:

If I was a gambling man I'd suggest that Derby's problem is in the 'going concern' area, amd Wednsday's problem is the mess they created for themselves in putting the stadium transaction in the wrong year.

If Morris confirms that he is willing to support the finances of the 'Football Group' for the foreseeable future he is effectively creating a massive problem for himself if he pulls the plug in the next few years.

If he doesn't sign the going concern letter, then the accounts will need to reflect that, which will be catastrophic to the finances, and will also result in action from the EFL.

 

Could Sheffield Wednesday also have a 'going concern' issue due to the fact Chansiri has taken a loan out? Not a big one however, £6.4m but secured against Hillsborough, due end of September 2021.

I wonder if auditors are refusing to sign off Sheffield Wednesday- be it going concern, be it lack of cash, be it a lack of confidence given the aforementioned Hillsborough sale mess. Their auditor did indeed intimate in the Written Reasons that he wouldn't have signed the transaction off had he known etc- or would these missing accounts predate all that?

I also wondered if it would or could have come out in Sheffield 2 Limited for consolidated accounts- as Sheffield Wednesday Holdings or SWFC Holdings transferred Share Capital across to both Sheffield 2 Limited and Sheffield 4 Limited- the latter now wound up- in late June 2019. Both have the following statement:

Quote

"Non-cash consideration

"SHARES ALLOTTED IN EXCHANGE FOR THE TRANSFER OF THE ENTIRE ISSUED SHARE CAPITAL OF SWFC HOLDINGS LIMITED"

Curiously both were on 28th June 2019, at least as per Companies House- Sheffield 4 was the controlling party of Sheffield 3, but post winding up this is/was now Sheffield 5 Limited.

SWFC Holdings was based in Hong Kong. Might still be, but as privately owned ie not listed, seems not to have to publish accounts over there if it even still exists in that form.

If however, Sheffield Wednesday and any of the relevant companies are all under the SWFC Holdings Limited Group (or who it has transferred to), seems to me that the Stadium sale and leaseback should be adjusted out anyway, based on the consolidated results.

It seems like it would be too good to be true however!

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37 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Could Sheffield Wednesday also have a 'going concern' issue

I doubt it.  If you look at the lastest Bristol City Football Club Limited accounts, the going concern issue runs to almost a whole page from the middle of page 12.  So if Morris signs the accounts today he is in effect saying that he will fund the club until January 2022, not sure that he has that desire.

As to Wednesday similar confirmation from Chansiri will be required I suspect that Chansiri has the wealth and desire to make that commitment.

I won't publish my views on the Audit of Wednesday's accounts.

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2 hours ago, Busterrimes said:

I know you are stupid but supply and demand dictates they players are only worth what someone will actually pay. Therefore they were not undervalued.

🤣🤣🤣

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

They're signing based on a quick search:

Mengi, Gregory on loan. Possibly keeping Evans after all,  Edmundson on loan too from Rangers- wonder if there's any subsidy/mates rates there.

Also linked with free transfers for Mancienne and Mendez-Laing.

 

Keep up. Patrick Robert, Beni Banigime, Issac Success, Freddie Ladapo and Marshall Munetsi have all been linked in the last 24 hours or so.

Mancienne is a new one that I haven't heard. That rumour looks to have been started by a Metro Sport 'journalist'.

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Sounds like Derby have some fans with, let's call it an optimistic outlook. From their forum!

Quote

Thank goodness all the clubs in the PL are fine with their TV money etc !

 Not envious but well yes I am

 we need Robin Hood and his Merry men to start taking from the rich clubs to give to the poor, otherwise our very existence is threatened

🤣 Does this poster not get it- can they not join the dots. THEIR club are one of the very clubs, the actions of their club are one of the very reasons why the PL didn't have much sympathy with Championship clubs! Derby and their antics are a reason why the PL-EFL wrangling rolled on.

Where were the calls for redistribution when Mel Morris was spending willy-nilly in 2015, when the amortisation was being fixed to kick the can down the road, when the Stadium was sold.

Interesting post by another though- about the wider situation.

Quote

Football in general is heading for a huge fall. I was speaking to a senior manager at the EFL this week and he told me that almost 40 clubs are actively seeking new ownership.

Most clubs are living off unreturned season ticket monies from this season (which they will have to roll into credits for next season when fans will be back), plus the furlough scheme and central grants and loans. These are all going to start drying up after April and we will start to see casualties appearing at the back end of the year.

Interesting post by another though- about the wider situation.

However, this poster....hahaha dream on!

Quote

By the way scrap FFP or P&S, let’s make it free for all !

Why not have a scheme where a % of transfer fees paid out go into fund to help struggling poorer clubs to survive (like us) !

Again, 2015-2019 era! Even 2019 Bieilk and Rooney, the possible last gasps.

I'm not saying the messages of the first and last post are the worst of all time...but the club or fans of the club making it- haha! Championship clubs had trouble getting, thrashing out a bailout...and it's thanks in no small part to clubs like them! That last bit doesn't even make sense- in one breath calling for a free for all, otoh talking levy % on transfer fees to help struggling clubs- so which is it?? 😀

(By bailout, I mean PAYE loan to summer 2021- repayable out of future Parachute, Solidarity Payments or other Central Awards over the next 3 seasons).

You might be interested in a few of these @Hxj @Davefevs A levy on transfers to help clubs like Derby?? Pfft.

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Mel Morris Interview with a rather (on the face of it) surprising newspaper. Given how Derby fans bitch about it, especially Matt Hughes for having an agenda vs them..

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-9257771/amp/A-year-hell-Mel-Morris-reveals-major-health-problems-sell-Derby-200m-loss.html

Read parts of the interview. Health issues aside which clearly don't wish on anyone, he seems typically Trumpian though not as much as when he claimed EFL had it in for him and Derby etc.

Amusing to see him talk of greater redistribution when he was one of a clutch of owners who brought the EFL into disrepute and probably as a result helped to make a a Championship bailout drag on for longer than it needed to.

Of course they're all lapping it up on Derby forum, some even claiming the Mail on Sunday might have coerced him into talking to them. :laugh: Those particular individuals smack of deluded cultists. 

BTW @Silvio Dante the bit about administration looks a bit premature now. They appear to be actually winning games too despite wage issues??

Other odd items include a 34 year old Kazim Richards having as many League goals as Diedhiou this season. Hell Lee Gregory goal, assist on debut. Strikeforce 34 and 32...

Oh yeah Mel Morris. Odd mix of PR and Trumpian. Seems to mention £15m loan, assuming that's MSD. £22m in working capital too for this season.

Doesn't seem to mention:

*Questionable employment practices. Keogh, could also say Rush but definitely Pearce.

*Why Gabay stuff still appears at CH.

*The fact that the EFL are appealing amortisation.

*The wage issue though I'd have to read it again to see if I've missed any key bits.

*The notional interest rates on MSD. Precedent and other arrangements indicates they're maybe pretty high!

*Said loans being secured against all they're secured on.

I would say delusional fanbase but their club does seem to get away with murder so maybe not.

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23 hours ago, bredwood said:

A similar article also posted on the BBC - Derby County: What is happening with Sheikh Khaled's £60m takeover? - BBC Sport

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Interesting couple of articles certainly.

Their secondary charge- ie the Amortisation issue- decided within the next month? Calculations by @AnotherDerbyFan on the FFP thread with the different methods- make me wonder, certainly the 3 years to 2018/19 could be tricky to comply if ruled against. A recalculation to Straight Line would materially change the past results, but also likely help them moving forward.

Another curiosity is the Gabay/Rams Investment bit. Because though both sides deny and claim it's an error by Companies House, it's possible of course but I note that when Sunderland takeover went through and the charges (not Disciplinary but Investment/Mortgage whatever you want to call it) were cleared, it appeared within a week.

Says Companies House are in the loop and informed about non submission of Accounts due to awaiting Disciplinary Appeal Outcome. Thought that might be the case.

I also wonder why even if the Player Amortisation issue isn't settled, why a) The Confirmation Statement for Sevco 5112 still hasn't appeared at CH and b) Why no results for some of the smaller companies that make up the Group (but whose ownership/direct controlling party is not the Club) that may not be affected by Player Amortisation- e.g. Club DCFC, The Derby County FC Academy and Stadia DCFC have not yet materialised at Companies House.

PPS wages late and then late again. Yet, new signings:

Gregory- BBC says Goal and Assist vs Middlesbrough.

Edmundson- Opening Goal vs Huddersfield albeit in a two goal win. Waghorn's 2nd and clinching goal looked like it might have been offside tbh. Terrible defending though.

One more thing. How lucky are Derby that Brighton didn't mind late wages with Matt Clarke loan- or are Brighton just covering it?

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