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How good has Zak Vyner been!


DanCarter25

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3 minutes ago, 95red said:

When you start playing  players out of natural  position your in trouble

that can certainly be the case, yet one manager gave him his full senior debut at RB, a position he himself admitted he’d never played, even as a kid!

if you think he's the answer  up to you ,I dont

I haven’t made up my mind, because he’s only played 102 minutes there for City. As for “the answer”, it’s about benefit of the team.  If he’s crap, but it helps Nagy or Palmer, or whoever to play better, then that’s good too.  Sometimes you have players that do the hard yards for the benefit of others.  Yesterday, Nagy didn’t have to take so much responsibility for tracking runners, because Vyner played the anchor role.  He could pass on runners.  With Bakinson and Nagy, neither appeared to know who was doing what.

As a fan base, we are far too rigid in our thinking about a multitude of things.

Vyner might be crap on Wednesday v Norwich....but I will still be spending more time watching before formulating my view.

I think it’s fine, in your opinion, for you to think he won’t be the answer.  It’s just that you were so categoric about it....now you’re stating in as many words that’s it’s your opinion, that’s cool.

 

1 minute ago, bcfc01 said:

No comment re Vyner as I've not seen enough of him as a DM, but he did well enough yesterday..

I agree in general with the bold bit (and Johnson had an annoying habit of doing this or getting a player in and then playing him out of position), but the game is littered with young players who started in one position and then had a good career in others. If a player has good all round ability, then most could play a number of positions perfectly well. Vyner may fall into this category and it may turn out to be his best position, but time will tell.

If he plays v Norwich, then that will give us a very good indication - but I certainly wouldn't rule him out as a DM after one pretty good game in that position.

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7 hours ago, Will Rollason said:

where are we getting this idea that he's weak in the air? Ok he's not as dominant as Kalas ,for instance ,but he's plenty good enough.. last time i saw him play CH he was there every time clearing ball after ball( Luton iirc). Don't be mistaking height for ability. 

It’s not about him necessarily being weak in the air, it’s more about the amount of times he’s been guilty of ball watching and lost his man for either a chance or goal - and there have been plenty of goals shipped due to him switching off  at a set piece. More on that in this thread. If Taylor Moore made those mistakes, people would’ve jumped on his back. 

I also recently saw him miss a golden chance to score with a header from a corner (six yards out perhaps at Preston or Rotherham?). That’s constructive criticism, because he’s improved all other aspects of his game this season IMO and fair play to him. 

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19 minutes ago, tin said:

It’s not about him necessarily being weak in the air, it’s more about the amount of times he’s been guilty of ball watching and lost his man for either a chance or goal - and there have been plenty of goals shipped due to him switching off  at a set piece. More on that in this thread. If Taylor Moore made those mistakes, people would’ve jumped on his back. 

I also recently saw him miss a golden chance to score with a header from a corner (six yards out perhaps at Preston or Rotherham?). That’s constructive criticism, because he’s improved all other aspects of his game this season IMO and fair play to him. 

The plus side is that if he`s doing that he can learn not to whereas if it`s a strength thing, not so easy to address.

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30 minutes ago, Lanterne Rouge said:

The plus side is that if he`s doing that he can learn not to whereas if it`s a strength thing, not so easy to address.

Definitely. I think the frequency of these errors though suggests he’s not learning or perhaps he just not keen on heading the ball? Who knows. As I said to Fevs, I think he has the makings of a quality RB. Time will tell.

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1 hour ago, tin said:

Definitely. I think the frequency of these errors though suggests he’s not learning or perhaps he just not keen on heading the ball? Who knows. As I said to Fevs, I think he has the makings of a quality RB. Time will tell.

I think CDM is his place, then CH, maybe RB but not convinced. He looks much happier centrally to me.

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17 hours ago, 95red said:

When you start playing  players out of natural  position your in trouble ,if you think he's the answer  up to you ,I dont

Errrr...Bobby Reid? Going back a bit, Alan Walsh? Even further, Ray Cashley started as an outfield player, didn't he?

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18 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest, how many times is that?  Not saying he hasn’t, but if we are being fair and consistent, how many times has Kalas done similarly?

Vyner is young, ever present and justifiably so, has filled different positions when asked to do so and I do think he will come to make a very good player in whatever position he settles into. Been outstanding this year given the way the injuries have built up and the changes in the team around him. 

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7 hours ago, Colemanballs said:

Interesting that the first half highlights are so much longer than those for the second half. Can any conclusions be drawn from that I wonder?

Yes, Preston came out and out us under pressure for 15-20 minutes of the second half.

It’s a competitive league...never gonna boss the whole 90.  The fact that we restricted them to one looping header off the top of the crossbar that was never going in was a good sign...as was the ability to weather it and then retake control.

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I wonder when we can read the "big clubs circling for Vyner" and "our business plan means we have to sell players" messages

Sorry to be negative but when ever we unearth some real talent, you just know they will soon be on their way because young players see our lack of real ambition and selling our best talent is our policy.

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57 minutes ago, extonsred said:

Vyner is young, ever present and justifiably so, has filled different positions when asked to do so and I do think he will come to make a very good player in whatever position he settles into. Been outstanding this year given the way the injuries have built up and the changes in the team around him. 

I was debating with another poster that Vyner had made a similar number of mistakes as Kalas....who wasn’t getting any stick.  I think Zak is doing great.  I wasn’t criticising Zak, doing the opposite in fact.

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Really hope he doesn't do well in midfield as I don't know if I can deal with more fuel on the fire of OTIB suggesting we play players in random positions which we've had since it worked with Bobby.

If we ever sign an ex Premiership player on a "pay as you play" deal I'm totally done.

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3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, Preston came out and out us under pressure for 15-20 minutes of the second half.

It’s a competitive league...never gonna boss the whole 90.  The fact that we restricted them to one looping header off the top of the crossbar that was never going in was a good sign...as was the ability to weather it and then retake control.

Shouldn't we then have seen more of him in a defensive role, or doesn't it work like that? Genuine question.

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39 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Really hope he doesn't do well in midfield as I don't know if I can deal with more fuel on the fire of OTIB suggesting we play players in random positions which we've had since it worked with Bobby.

If we ever sign an ex Premiership player on a "pay as you play" deal I'm totally done.

How do you feel about Jay Dasilva playing as a left winger? ?

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44 minutes ago, Colemanballs said:

Shouldn't we then have seen more of him in a defensive role, or doesn't it work like that? Genuine question.

I think that’s exactly what we did see....him and Nagy, together with Adelakun and to a lesser extent Palmer, working hard to keep our 2 banks of 4 until we rode the storm.  They did it pretty well because Preston didn’t have a shot on target in that period.

2E2D625E-1020-4101-91F4-A25A261DEAEB.thumb.jpeg.d56e402a8b652b599ac2f7366e481484.jpeg

Preston’s second half chances.

Johnson....speculative 25 yarder from an angle, blocked on edge of box

Huntingdon....header that was never going in imho

Maguire....angled shot inside the box having been shown onto his weaker left foot, blocked within 2 yards of him, I.e. just chancing his luck

Fisher....25 yard shot on the run, blocked 15 yards out.

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7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think that’s exactly what we did see....him and Nagy, together with Adelakun and to a lesser extent Palmer, working hard to keep our 2 banks of 4 until we rode the storm.  They did it pretty well because Preston didn’t have a shot on target in that period.

2E2D625E-1020-4101-91F4-A25A261DEAEB.thumb.jpeg.d56e402a8b652b599ac2f7366e481484.jpeg

Preston’s second half chances.

Johnson....speculative 25 yarder from an angle, blocked on edge of box

Huntingdon....header that was never going in imho

Maguire....angled shot inside the box having been shown onto his weaker left foot, blocked within 2 yards of him, I.e. just chancing his luck

Fisher....25 yard shot on the run, blocked 15 yards out.

Yup. I'm not questioning any of that or doubting that he played well but it's more a question of what is (and isn't) included in the video. Is it only where he has actually touched the ball? If so, presumably there is a lot of defensive work not shown because he hasn't actually touched the ball? 

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1 hour ago, Colemanballs said:

Yup. I'm not questioning any of that or doubting that he played well but it's more a question of what is (and isn't) included in the video. Is it only where he has actually touched the ball? If so, presumably there is a lot of defensive work not shown because he hasn't actually touched the ball? 

Yep, not my video.....created by someone else.  All I would say that James highlight reel showed many good things across a 90 minute match.  Some players would take 3 or 4 games to see that many good examples.

Hence why some of my pics cover things off the ball.  In my Adelakun thread, you will see Vyner supporting him in our own RB position, and not exposing Hunt for example.  87 minutes are off the ball.  I make no apologies for showing this again!

BCC966AE-73F3-4CE1-81BE-0BEEBC7C96E2.thumb.jpeg.8d889b7562742b391636c2464cff4298.jpeg

All little things.  Short of watching the whole game back and just following Vyner, which is what I’d do if someone paid me to do it, you have to go with general observations.  But across James’s video and my pics you get a pretty good appreciation for someone having a good game.

When I’m watching a game I’m scanning lots of things not just the player on the ball, I’m trying to look at shape, runs, etc.  Not efficiently on a tv screen as at the ground mind you.

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6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yes, Preston came out and out us under pressure for 15-20 minutes of the second half.

It’s a competitive league...never gonna boss the whole 90.  The fact that we restricted them to one looping header off the top of the crossbar that was never going in was a good sign...as was the ability to weather it and then retake control.

I agree with all that but as well as we defend on a fairly consistent basis I also think that continually surrendering possession and facing wave after wave of attacks requiring last ditch defending for 25 minute periods will cost you big time against the quality sides in the league (Preston were very low on quality imo).............it will be bang, bang and all of a sudden 1-1 and well in the game with the opposition starting to get frustrated is 3-1 down and good night. We need to find a way of at least taking some sting out of the inevitable periods when we are second best by having SOME possession during them and/or disrupting/managing the game, call it what you like!!

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38 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I agree with all that but as well as we defend on a fairly consistent basis I also think that continually surrendering possession and facing wave after wave of attacks requiring last ditch defending for 25 minute periods will cost you big time against the quality sides in the league (Preston were very low on quality imo).............it will be bang, bang and all of a sudden 1-1 and well in the game with the opposition starting to get frustrated is 3-1 down and good night. We need to find a way of at least taking some sting out of the inevitable periods when we are second best by having SOME possession during them and/or disrupting/managing the game, call it what you like!!

And I agree with you back.  We have to improve our ability at not letting it become wave after wave of attack.  I have little problem with a team constantly playing passes side to side 45-50 yards from our goal, with no penetration into our final third.....e.g. Derby.  It’s boring and frustrating admittedly!

image.jpeg.fc373ec1faae8db7fe0b94bc8b361d41.jpeg

When that happens, it’s about pouncing on the bad passes, mis-controls etc, e.g. the pressing triggers.

But as you say Preston did penetrate our final third, and although sometimes you can’t do a lot about it, it’s about limiting the number of times and the number of times in succession.

That is where we need to improve (as you say), big-

First half, Martin and Diedhiou dropped into our half beyond the centre circle.  Not only did it mean they could engage with Preston’s deeper midfielders (potentially snapping at their heels), but it gave a shorter pass out from defence.

I haven’t studied it back, but my gut feel was that they both hogged the halfway line more in the second half, giving more space to Preston in front of our banks of four, but also a longer and harder out-ball.  To my mind you either pass your way out, or you go long, but in behind and have runners willing to do that.  Fam and Martin can’t do that, so you need to play out, which requires one of them (at least ) to come a bit shorter.

I’m not sure why Adelakun and Palmer swapped sides.  My notes picked it up on 49 mins, and also the swap back on 57 mins.  Preston’s corner came in between those two times, so it wasn’t transitional from a corner.  My only thought was end of first half they’d had a bit of pressure on Rowe’s side, and therefore Holden thought Adelakun might be better support.  Whatever the reason we lost fluidity on either side. Perhaps that was part of the struggle too.

Would love to be able to watch the whole 90 back, but reliant on limited minutes of Wyscout per month, so use my minutes sparingly!

But I will say, when we play compact lengthways and across the pitch we are a better team....it’s my biggest bugbear and if it was putting a side together that would be the main thing I instilled.  We moan about fitness and fatigue, but being compact(er) than of late meant we could chase the second goal, and we ended the far stronger team (imho).  Introduction of Massengo helped too.  The pics below don’t need a brain surgeon to tell you where our probs chafe been (at a simplistic level) - too deep, too far apart.

24236981-B5A2-4C2A-9C46-ACE811D74758.jpeg.0b97633ddda7552530e89f69bcd3260a.jpeg
34ADB961-BF30-40BE-B6A4-88602382F9AE.jpeg.ab856dff48565b33e0e8f1ce02f2e83b.jpeg

I’d love to know what the pros picked up from Saturday?

 

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2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

I agree with all that but as well as we defend on a fairly consistent basis I also think that continually surrendering possession and facing wave after wave of attacks requiring last ditch defending for 25 minute periods will cost you big time against the quality sides in the league (Preston were very low on quality imo).............it will be bang, bang and all of a sudden 1-1 and well in the game with the opposition starting to get frustrated is 3-1 down and good night. We need to find a way of at least taking some sting out of the inevitable periods when we are second best by having SOME possession during them and/or disrupting/managing the game, call it what you like!!

The simplest solution and you've alluded to it, is to do what some of the best teams in the world do/have done - apply a dollop of shithousery.

Under continuous pressure - tactical fouls up the field, take a yellow for the team, when fouled get the physio on the pitch, etc etc. Just break up the game and the momentum. 

Things that PNE are good at when a goal in front...

 

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12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, not my video.....created by someone else.  All I would say that James highlight reel showed many good things across a 90 minute match.  Some players would take 3 or 4 games to see that many good examples.

Hence why some of my pics cover things off the ball.  In my Adelakun thread, you will see Vyner supporting him in our own RB position, and not exposing Hunt for example.  87 minutes are off the ball.  I make no apologies for showing this again!

BCC966AE-73F3-4CE1-81BE-0BEEBC7C96E2.thumb.jpeg.8d889b7562742b391636c2464cff4298.jpeg

All little things.  Short of watching the whole game back and just following Vyner, which is what I’d do if someone paid me to do it, you have to go with general observations.  But across James’s video and my pics you get a pretty good appreciation for someone having a good game.

When I’m watching a game I’m scanning lots of things not just the player on the ball, I’m trying to look at shape, runs, etc.  Not efficiently on a tv screen as at the ground mind you.

I'd seen the Cruyff quote before but hadn't fully appreciated it until now. Thanks. 

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