Alfie Mawson

[Silvio Dante]

20 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Did it originate in the Atheltic?.......if so .how did they get hold of a second division player whinging about the treatment he’s been receiving.

Load of shit stirring nonsense imo.

I’m going to say this slowly.

In this country, there is this thing called the media. Now, the media know that they get most sales through big clubs, but also, every now and again, know it’s good to engage with teams at lower levels.

Now, players also have things called agents. These people look out for their players best interests (mostly), and will approach the media if need be to give them stories.

You then have players. When a player gets an injury, it damages his future value, earning potential and the agents income. If that injury is caused by mismanagement, then the player is understandably a bit miffed.

So, putting that together.

You have an injured player. Who is a bit miffed. You have an agent. Who is also a bit miffed due to potential loss of future earnings. You have the media. Who know any story will pique the interest of fans of the club it is about (proven by this story) and generate income. The player speaks to the agent who speaks to the media.

And that’s “how they got hold of a second division player who’s whinging”.

Your more pertinent question should be, if there’s not some truth, why hasn’t Holden denied it in strong terms or Williams said he’s been misquoted?

(FWIW Mawsons recovery vs Williams and the medical team doing well in the former may have as much to do with the injury type as opposed to anything else)

[BigTone]

40 minutes ago, Southport Red said:

I think the theory about the Medical Team Tone (which I know you haven't been involved in) is that loan players with injuries go back to their parent clubs to rehabilitate anget back to fitness, the ones we have here seem not to (Mawson vs Williams/Walsh being the most-quoted examples

Maybe so but I think the problem with Walsh is that he is just not good enough or just wants out. Mawson has come back sooner than expected so fair play to those involved. William's, none of us really know and in all honesty why should we.

[tin]

28 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Did it originate in the Atheltic?.......if so .how did they get hold of a second division player whinging about the treatment he’s been receiving.

Load of shit stirring nonsense imo.

Yes, it did. As I've said to you previously, that's the country's best selection of sports hacks. GMG followed that up like any local reporter should - and corroborated it with more than one source. Those sources would've then been checked by his editor, James Piercy. The club would've also been offered the chance to reply - a chance they didn't take. It's safe to assume the story is fair and accurate, IMO.

None so blind etc...

[BigTone]

2 minutes ago, tin said:

Yes, it did. As I've said to you previously, that's the country's best selection of sports hacks. GMG followed that up like any local reporter should - and corroborated it with more than one source. Those sources would've then been checked by his editor, James Piercy. The club would've also been offered the chance to reply - a chance they didn't take. It's safe to assume the story is fair and accurate, IMO.

None so blind etc...

As those who believe what you have just written.

You've made assumptions that you just cannot substantiate.

Why support the club if all you want to do is beat all and sundry involved with your big conspiracy stick.

[Numero Uno]

3 minutes ago, BigTone said:

As those who believe what you have just written.

You've made assumptions that you just cannot substantiate.

Why support the club if all you want to do is beat all and sundry involved with your big conspiracy stick.

I totally agree with your last statement as a general rule but I do think this particular "conspiracy" has more legs than most you come across on here or elsewhere. Holden even mentioned it in a recent interview and certainly did not DENY there was an issue, he was careful in his wording although did say we were beyond the point where everything, injury and rehabilitation wise, can be put down to bad luck and I believe suggested that the issue is something that is being "looked at". However he also said what I would expect him to say in that his priority has to be getting results with the players that are available.

[Nogbad the Bad]

5 minutes ago, BigTone said:

As those who believe what you have just written.

You've made assumptions that you just cannot substantiate.

Why support the club if all you want to do is beat all and sundry involved with your big conspiracy stick.

 

11 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Maybe so but I think the problem with Walsh is that he is just not good enough or just wants out. Mawson has come back sooner than expected so fair play to those involved. William's, none of us really know and in all honesty why should we.

Yet you seem to have your own conspiracy theory about Walsh, Tone - that 'he just wants out'.

Nothing to back that up., all we know is that, no doubt to the huge frustration of all involved, he remains injured.

Whether he's good enough, from what we've seen here and at Coventry, is of course a matter of opinion.

I happen to think he almost certainly is, and so does Holden unless he was fibbing when he made a big thing that he planned for Walsh to play a big part  for us this season.

 

[BigTone]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

I totally agree with your last statement as a general rule but I do think this particular "conspiracy" has more legs than most you come across on here or elsewhere. Holden even mentioned it in a recent interview and certainly did not DENY there was an issue, he was careful in his wording although did say we were beyond the point where everything, injury and rehabilitation wise, can be put down to bad luck and I believe suggested that the issue is something that is being "looked at". However he also said what I would expect him to say in that his priority has to be getting results with the players that are available.

He could mean the mental health well being of the players as much as anything hence any careful wording. Let's face it as an example most of us are feeling the downside of a pandemic just now without other normal everyday problems. Footballers are humans just like us all.

[BigTone]

1 minute ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

 

Yet you seem to have your own conspiracy theory about Walsh, Tone - that 'he just wants out'.

Nothing to back that up., all we know is that, no doubt to the huge frustration of all involved, he remains injured.

Whether he's good enough, from what we've seen here and at Coventry, is of course a matter of opinion.

I happen to think he almost certainly is, and so does Holden unless he was fibbing when he made a big thing that he planned for Walsh to play a big part  for us this season.

 

No Noggers no conspiracy but I just don't think he's good enough if I'm honest. How many games has he played for us since he signed.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, BigTone said:

He could mean the mental health well being of the players as much as anything hence any careful wording. Let's face it as an example most of us are feeling the downside of a pandemic just now without other normal everyday problems. Footballers are humans just like us all.

What I took from the Holden interview, whatever he may have subtly meant, is that the point has finally been reached where the club are finally doing what many feel they should have done a long time back and looking into WHY we have the injury issues we do appear to have. That part of his interview seemed clear.

[Numero Uno]

1 minute ago, BigTone said:

No Noggers no conspiracy but I just don't think he's good enough if I'm honest. How many games has he played for us since he signed.

I think people should get ready to be disappointed IF and when Walsh plays for us because he has literally been built up by far too many people to be some Midfield General in waiting when literally NONE of us actually know if he will even cut it at Championship level let alone get us dominating games week-in and week-out............all on the back of a good three quarters of a season in League 1.

[BigTone]

6 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

What I took from the Holden interview, whatever he may have subtly meant, is that the point has finally been reached where the club are finally doing what many feel they should have done a long time back and looking into WHY we have the injury issues we do appear to have. That part of his interview seemed clear.

As I said on another post / thread that perhaps the players conditioning is a problem. Anyway, who knows ? Sure it will even out over time. 

[BigTone]

5 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I think people should get ready to be disappointed IF and when Walsh plays for us because he has literally been built up by far too many people to be some Midfield General in waiting when literally NONE of us actually know if he will even cut it at Championship level let alone get us dominating games week-in and week-out............all on the back of a good three quarters of a season in League 1.

Pretty much how I see it

[tin]

22 minutes ago, BigTone said:

As those who believe what you have just written.

You've made assumptions that you just cannot substantiate.

Why support the club if all you want to do is beat all and sundry involved with your big conspiracy stick.

Have I been asked to substantiate anything? No. I've worked in the media for many years now. I outlined a process I know inside out. I'd be very surprised if the Post didn't follow that before publishing that story. 

As for your final line, I don't have a big conspiracy stick but neither do I have blind faith in those running the club. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

2 minutes ago, BigTone said:

No Noggers no conspiracy but I just don't think he's good enough if I'm honest. How many games has he played for us since he signed.

Since signing for City he's made 19 apps. for us - plus 34 out on loan - according to wiki. So 53 appearances overall.

After a very successful loan last season it's very likely he'd have been a regular this season, along with Williams, but for injury.

That seemed to be what Holden had in mind so it's fair to say that those at the club do rate him as good enough.

 

 

[Robbored]

51 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’m going to say this slowly.

In this country, there is this thing called the media. Now, the media know that they get most sales through big clubs, but also, every now and again, know it’s good to engage with teams at lower levels.

Now, players also have things called agents. These people look out for their players best interests (mostly), and will approach the media if need be to give them stories.

You then have players. When a player gets an injury, it damages his future value, earning potential and the agents income. If that injury is caused by mismanagement, then the player is understandably a bit miffed.

So, putting that together.

You have an injured player. Who is a bit miffed. You have an agent. Who is also a bit miffed due to potential loss of future earnings. You have the media. Who know any story will pique the interest of fans of the club it is about (proven by this story) and generate income. The player speaks to the agent who speaks to the media.

And that’s “how they got hold of a second division player who’s whinging”.

Your more pertinent question should be, if there’s not some truth, why hasn’t Holden denied it in strong terms or Williams said he’s been misquoted?

(FWIW Mawsons recovery vs Williams and the medical team doing well in the former may have as much to do with the injury type as opposed to anything else)

Hmmm.......I really can’t remember being so patronised on otib.......it’s a first I think Silvio.....

[Numero Uno]

4 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

Since signing for City he's made 19 apps. for us - plus 34 out on loan - according to wiki. So 53 appearances overall.

After a very successful loan last season it's very likely he'd have been a regular this season, along with Williams, but for injury.

That seemed to be what Holden had in mind so it's fair to say that those at the club do rate him as good enough.

 

 

Nothing wrong with Holden and the other coaches thinking the kid is good enough and he's seen far more of him than any of us have but that has been taken by some fans as absolutely nailed on and that Liam Walsh will literally be the answer from day 1...............everyone knows what our fans are like.

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, tin said:

Have I been asked to substantiate anything? No. I've worked in the media for many years now. I outlined a process I know inside out. I'd be very surprised if the Post didn't follow that before publishing that story. 

As for your final line, I don't have a big conspiracy stick but neither do I have blind faith in those running the club. 

I think the clincher for me on that is that the club could easily have barred Gregor had he written something patently untrue or libellous. This isn’t an opinion piece, it’s flat out saying players are unhappy about the medical/recovery care. That would be enough to make him persona non grata unless it had some truth in it. Clubs have barred journos before for less.

[Silvio Dante]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Hmmm.......I really can’t remember being so patronised on otib.......it’s a first I think Silvio.....

Just a bit of your own medicine old chap

[BigTone]

18 minutes ago, tin said:

Have I been asked to substantiate anything? No. I've worked in the media for many years now. I outlined a process I know inside out. I'd be very surprised if the Post didn't follow that before publishing that story. 

As for your final line, I don't have a big conspiracy stick but neither do I have blind faith in those running the club. 

Neither do I have blind faith but given your experience I am surprised that you would state a process that should be followed was actually followed unless you can substantiate it was. You are surprised and nothing more which adds diddly squat to the argument really. In saying that it's your opinion and I respect that fully.

[BigTone]

14 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think the clincher for me on that is that the club could easily have barred Gregor had he written something patently untrue or libellous. This isn’t an opinion piece, it’s flat out saying players are unhappy about the medical/recovery care. That would be enough to make him persona non grata unless it had some truth in it. Clubs have barred journos before for less.

Are you ITK as to the clubs position re Gregor or just speculating ?

[Robbored]

23 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

What I took from the Holden interview, whatever he may have subtly meant, is that the point has finally been reached where the club are finally doing what many feel they should have done a long time back and looking into WHY we have the injury issues we do appear to have. That part of his interview seemed clear.

Put yourself in Deano position and a local hack writes a story essentially saying that the medical/physio departments are crap based on one unsubstantiated rumour from an unhappy player who can’t get fit....

Deano did the right thing and spoke with Williams but what the outcome of that discussion was we don’t know.

He also said in his presser that the club would look into why there are so many injuries - another correct decision.

What he didn’t do was either agree or deny that the medical/physio departments are to blame - another correct decision.

With no clear or combination of reasons as why the injury list is so long Deano obviously has no obvious evidence as to the causes and quite rightly ‘sat on the fence’ 

The injury issues will be looked into and hopefully conclusions will be  reached. However I doubt we fans will get to know what those conclusions are.

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Did it originate in the Atheltic?.......if so .how did they get hold of a second division player whinging about the treatment he’s been receiving.

Load of shit stirring nonsense imo.

I’ve told you in several posts it did....am I making it up?  6th Jan.  I posted the Athletic article on here before Gregor wrote his story.

The rest is as @Silvio Dante posts.

 

[Nogbad the Bad]

40 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I think people should get ready to be disappointed IF and when Walsh plays for us because he has literally been built up by far too many people to be some Midfield General in waiting when literally NONE of us actually know if he will even cut it at Championship level let alone get us dominating games week-in and week-out............all on the back of a good three quarters of a season in League 1.

I can't remember anyone saying that. I've seen several posters saying 'he's not the Messiah', when nobody has said he would be.

Nobody I've seen has said he would get us dominating games week in week out either - that would be a ridiculous expectation to put on one player.

He showed he had matured in to a consistent player with regular games at Coventry, at a level below, and if he could take that sort of form and consistency into Championship football he would definitely be an asset to us.

Many of us remain keen to see if he could do just that because we're lacking creative, combative players in midfield, and he's shown real potential to be one.

That seems to be the general view of those of us who continue to view him in a positive light - the pressure to be 'our saviour' is coming from those who don't imo.

 

 

[Numero Uno]

Just now, Robbored said:

Put yourself in Deano position and a local hack writes a story essentially saying that the medical/physio departments are crap based on one unsubstantiated rumour from an unhappy player who can’t get fit....

Deano did the right thing and spoke with Williams but what the outcome of that discussion was we don’t know.

He also said in his presser that the club would look into why there are so many injuries - another correct decision.

What he didn’t do was either agree or deny that the medical/physio departments are to blame - another correct decision.

With no clear or combination of reasons as why the injury list is so long Deano obviously has no obvious evidence as to the causes and quite rightly ‘sat on the fence’ 

The injury issues will be looked into and hopefully conclusions will be  reached. However I doubt we fans will get to know what those conclusions are.

 

Cant argue with much of that EXCEPT to say, in my opinion only of course, these injuries should have been looked into by the club a long time ago............this isn't a new phenomenon and as I said previously if the "investigation" conclusion is that we are literally suffering from bad luck despite having done everything correctly to industry standards and followed all normal protocols then we can at least put the issue to bed.

[Numero Uno]

2 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I can't remember anyone saying that. I've seen several posters saying 'he's not the Messiah', when nobody has said he would be.

Nobody I've seen has said he would get us dominating games week in week out either - that would be a ridiculous expectation to put on one player.

He showed he had matured in to a consistent player with regular games at Coventry, at a level below, and if he could take that sort of form and consistency into Championship football he would definitely not be an asset to us.

Many of us remain keen to see if he could do just that because we're lacking creative, combative players in midfield, and he's shown real potential to be one.

That seems to be the general view of those of us who continue to view him in a positive light - the pressure to be 'our saviour' is coming from those who don't imo.

 

 

I've read loads of posts along the lines of "when Walsh and Williams are back it will all be fine"............the truth is we don't know yet. It might!! I would find it strange if anyone has an agenda against Liam Walsh tbh......downright bizarre in fact.

[Silvio Dante]

13 minutes ago, BigTone said:

Are you ITK as to the clubs position re Gregor or just speculating ?

Well. 
 

I’m ITK that they haven’t barred him

I’m ITK that he wrote an article, if untrue, would give justifiable cause to bar him.

I’m not sure what part of that is speculation...?

[Coppello]

Given our medical record this season, I got a bit twitchy when I saw this thread was 'hot'!

[BigTone]

22 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Well. 
 

I’m ITK that they haven’t barred him

I’m ITK that he wrote an article, if untrue, would give justifiable cause to bar him.

I’m not sure what part of that is speculation...?

So you are enough ITK to know that words haven't been exchanged between the two ?

[Silvio Dante]

5 minutes ago, BigTone said:

So you are enough ITK to know that words haven't been exchanged?

Unlike yourself Tone, I’m going to avoid speculating.

What I will say is this. 
 

-We have a CEO who is intensely protective over his (and the clubs, but more his) media profile. 
 

-The story as written indicates that long term associates of said CEO aren’t exactly doing a bang up job.

-Said CEO has a history of trying to bring the media to heel and banning papers for unfavourable stories (see https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/sport/3995357.oliver-phillips-reflects-on-the-departure-of-mark-ashton-from-watford/)

-The original source (The Athletic) had no reason to makeup an article. It wasn’t even a main story, and we’re not a core market

- As @tin points out, in order to avoid legal cases, journalists have to source and double source. Gregor has not printed a correction to his story.

- And, again, neither Williams or Holden have denied the story and Gregor has not been banned - despite the CEO having form for doing so

Tone, you’re an intelligent bloke and not a troll. This isn’t “not supporting the club” or speculation-  this is examining evidence and coming to a reasonable conclusion. 
 

If you want more ITK, I’d think @Harrymay be your man. But I don’t think he’d conclude differently 

 

[BigTone]

14 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Unlike yourself Tone, I’m going to avoid speculating.

What I will say is this. 
 

-We have a CEO who is intensely protective over his (and the clubs, but more his) media profile. 
 

-The story as written indicates that long term associates of said CEO aren’t exactly doing a bang up job.

-Said CEO has a history of trying to bring the media to heel and banning papers for unfavourable stories (see https://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/sport/3995357.oliver-phillips-reflects-on-the-departure-of-mark-ashton-from-watford/)

-The original source (The Athletic) had no reason to makeup an article. It wasn’t even a main story, and we’re not a core market

- As @tin points out, in order to avoid legal cases, journalists have to source and double source. Gregor has not printed a correction to his story.

- And, again, neither Williams or Holden have denied the story and Gregor has not been banned - despite the CEO having form for doing so

Tone, you’re an intelligent bloke and not a troll. This isn’t “not supporting the club” or speculation-  this is examining evidence and coming to a reasonable conclusion. 
 

If you want more ITK, I’d think @Harrymay be your man. But I don’t think he’d conclude differently 

 

So in short your answer is no then.

With all due respect to Harry he is no more ITK than the rest of us as much as you might think otherwise IMO.

Why don't we just drop all the speculative shite and get behind the team and club instead of trying to find an outside agenda all the time in order to beat all concerned with a big stick.

I just want our club to succeed without everyone trying to pull it down at every opportunity.