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18 minutes ago, spudski said:

When we bought him, I remember LJ saying something along the lines of being a great defensive midfielder, and just what we needed to close out games.

Well from day one... he's never looked like a DM that could play well in the Championship. 

Imo... he's like Nagy in many ways. Better when going forward and with space. Both see a pass and better facing the opposition and going at them. Both drive well into the box as well when given opportunity.

Both Nagy and Massengo have been played not using their best assets imo...Nagy has of late, and Massengo shows when allowed.

Cisse was a DM of note... neither not these two are.

His mother was saying on Twitter that he plays attacking midfield in international matches, looked ok today in the attacking half.  If he's allowed to get more match-time we'll have a jewel on our hands in a year or so, the sort of player that if we did manage to get promoted, say, next season would not look out of place in the Prem, not many of the others you could say that about apart from Bentley and Kalas .

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15 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Despite the criticism from the usual quarters, I think we have the right Management team for these youngsters. 

People just need to understand that HNM or any of the kids are going to have games where they look out of their depth, only the truly exceptional players look good consistently from a young age.

Exactly right. Young players, especially if in and out of the time but even who play regularly, will have peaks and troughs.

I personally was worried Massengo had regressed or stagnated this season but a) Today was a welcome improvement and b) Only 19- peaks and troughs!

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23 minutes ago, spudski said:

When we bought him, I remember LJ saying something along the lines of being a great defensive midfielder, and just what we needed to close out games.

Well from day one... he's never looked like a DM that could play well in the Championship. 

Imo... he's like Nagy in many ways. Better when going forward and with space. Both see a pass and better facing the opposition and going at them. Both drive well into the box as well when given opportunity.

Both Nagy and Massengo have been played not using their best assets imo...Nagy has of late, and Massengo shows when allowed.

Cisse was a DM of note... neither not these two are.

Odd, isn’t it?

It’s City ‘thing’.

Buy a player for £££’s then play him out of position or shackle him to such a degree their natural talent is wasted.

HNM referred to his strongest position pushing forward in an attacking midfield role.... let him prove that. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Odd, isn’t it?

It’s City ‘thing’.

Buy a player for £££’s then play him out of position or shackle him to such a degree their natural talent is wasted.

....Or moan that he was a waste of  money and will never make it...

HNM referred to his strongest position pushing forward in an attacking midfield role.... let him prove that. 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Odd, isn’t it?

It’s City ‘thing’.

Buy a player for £££’s then play him out of position or shackle him to such a degree their natural talent is wasted.

HNM referred to his strongest position pushing forward in an attacking midfield role.... let him prove that. 

 

 

It very much is a City a thing 

Look for players with potential and under valued....then look at their attributes and often think that what they have can be coached into the position or type of player we want.

It was definitely an LJ thing.

Players come in...and first month we see the player that City first saw. Then we try and make them fit our system....rather than playing to their strengths.  Look at our players...then look at how that statement fits with many of them.

Brentford buy players that fit their system. We buy players with talent, and try to make them fit our system, regardless of whether they can or not.

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

When we bought him, I remember LJ saying something along the lines of being a great defensive midfielder, and just what we needed to close out games.

Well from day one... he's never looked like a DM that could play well in the Championship. 

Imo... he's like Nagy in many ways. Better when going forward and with space. Both see a pass and better facing the opposition and going at them. Both drive well into the box as well when given opportunity.

Both Nagy and Massengo have been played not using their best assets imo...Nagy has of late, and Massengo shows when allowed.

Cisse was a DM of note... neither not these two are.

⬇️⬇️⬇️

37 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

His mother was saying on Twitter that he plays attacking midfield in international matches, looked ok today in the attacking half.  If he's allowed to get more match-time we'll have a jewel on our hands in a year or so, the sort of player that if we did manage to get promoted, say, next season would not look out of place in the Prem, not many of the others you could say that about apart from Bentley and Kalas .

⬇️⬇️⬇️

32 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Odd, isn’t it?

It’s City ‘thing’.

Buy a player for £££’s then play him out of position or shackle him to such a degree their natural talent is wasted.

HNM referred to his strongest position pushing forward in an attacking midfield role.... let him prove that. 

 

 

⬇️⬇️⬇️

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

It very much is a City a thing 

Look for players with potential and under valued....then look at their attributes and often think that what they have can be coached into the position or type of player we want.

It was definitely an LJ thing.

Players come in...and first month we see the player that City first saw. Then we try and make them fit our system....rather than playing to their strengths.  Look at our players...then look at how that statement fits with many of them.

Brentford buy players that fit their system. We buy players with talent, and try to make them fit our system, regardless of whether they can or not.

Great succession of posts folks.  The issue is....

 

 

....Johnson trying to turn midfielders into an image of him.  Not saying LJ was a bad player (I barely saw him play), but in management (outside the world of football) bad managers promote people they themselves in.  Why on earth would you make him a DM, or a sideways crab midfielder.

As you’ve all said in different ways, he wasn’t a DM at Monaco or France u19s....why would LJ think of turning him into one.

Thise opening 5/6 matches were a breath of fresh....that since then looked stifled.

I think the same with Fam too.  I’ve been as critical of Fam as anyone, but I always caveat it with he’s not a target man.  Today and last week he looked so much more like the Angers Fam, and the one in the first 2/3 months here.

Back to HNM....if LJ had signed his guilty pleasure, Barry Bannan, he’d want him to play like he did.

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

⬇️⬇️⬇️

⬇️⬇️⬇️

⬇️⬇️⬇️

Great succession of posts folks.  The issue is....

 

 

....Johnson trying to turn midfielders into an image of him.  Not saying LJ was a bad player (I barely saw him play), but in management (outside the world of football) bad managers promote people they themselves in.  Why on earth would you make him a DM, or a sideways crab midfielder.

As you’ve all said in different ways, he wasn’t a DM at Monaco or France u19s....why would LJ think of turning him into one.

Thise opening 5/6 matches were a breath of fresh....that since then looked stifled.

I think the same with Fam too.  I’ve been as critical of Fam as anyone, but I always caveat it with he’s not a target man.  Today and last week he looked so much more like the Angers Fam, and the one in the first 2/3 months here.

Back to HNM....if LJ had signed his guilty pleasure, Barry Bannan, he’d want him to play like he did.

That's exactly how I see it Dave...a lot of talented square pegs being rammed screaming into round holes so to speak.

We've got some talented players stuffed by systems.

I'd love us to be disciplined defensively, but told to be expressive and fearless going forward...as long as they track back as quickly as if we were attacking.

We look so scared going forward into the final third sometimes.

Play with fear...but be disciplined.

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As above.

Start with the ‘shape(s)’ then buy players to fill the positions.

Pre KO, I thought for the first time today since Cotts left - with the possible exception of that purple patch with LJ - we had the making of a team ‘shape’ with the correct skill sets in the right positions. Wasn’t perfect by any means, but better.

Just worry - as with LJ - the only time we get a semblance of shape and patterns of play is when we have an injury crisis I.e. the coaches stumble on an answer rather than plan for it.

 

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2 hours ago, TomThumb84 said:

May have been said elsewhere, but I thought he looked sharp, quick-footed and physically stronger today.

There is a very good player in there, as always, it’s how his development and confidence is managed that will decide if we see the full potential.

He’s a fantastic talent. People keep forgetting how young he is. Pretty sure he will beat our transfer received record when he moves on. 

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48 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

I think he plays as a '10'.

According to Transfermrkt he has played 90% of his career thus far as a DM.

But most of the highlights I've seen of him for Monaco and the French age groups, he's played as an AM/CM and sometimes as a 10. Which is what  his mother (and his dad in the past) has said.

He can turn and hold off players easily, his body position in receiving a pass is a cut above all other players we have (maybe Nagy on a par), and he is very forward thinking if allowed to be. He is KP with tons more energy and strength on the ball.

He could play as a DM - but that is a waste of his talent imo.

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I would love to know, when Holden managed to get the job, in his head, what his 1-11 was and how we would set up.

He clearly had a vision of a 5-3-2 (3-5-2) attacking, free-flowing, footballing unit, but with who?

Clearly Walsh and Williams were two of the midfield 3, Paterson as the “Number 10”?.

Palmer or even Massengo (as alluded to, justifiably, on this thread) if invested in correctly would have claim to that surely.

Wells and Martin were clearly his front two of choice, was that a reason for Fam stalling on a contract? Or the fact he would not sign one meant he went with Wells and Martin?

Mainly rhetorical questions and injuries have made a massive impact, but I think most successful managers have a preferred system and personnel that obviously they deviate from, but try to get close to over planning a season.

I guess my point is, it was clear to all that Dean had a specific way he wanted to play, how many of the side now know they were second fiddle and/or squad members at the start of the season, and whats the impact of that? Could be positive as they have a point to prove?

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2 hours ago, Bassomylord said:

Said time and time again we won't see it here. Well down the pecking order and with players to return he looks destined to be a few minutes here and there sub if even in the squad at all.

All these injuries gave him a chance to impress like Nagy has but he still has hardly had an opportunity.

May prove to be an excellent player in the future but not with us as will almost certainly leave when contract is close to expiring.

Stop this trolling please. Underneath all this rubbish you post there might just be a decent observer of the game, and the talent that play it. Why Oh! why do you continue down this path of making outrageous posts...do you crave attention? 

Massengo is a city player, and a unique talent, his development under this club has been good, don't understand what you are saying, neither I suspect do you.

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3 hours ago, Bassomylord said:

Said time and time again we won't see it here. Well down the pecking order and with players to return he looks destined to be a few minutes here and there sub if even in the squad at all.

All these injuries gave him a chance to impress like Nagy has but he still has hardly had an opportunity.

May prove to be an excellent player in the future but not with us as will almost certainly leave when contract is close to expiring.

Isn't he Ashtons love child though ?

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2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Despite the criticism from the usual quarters, I think we have the right Management team for these youngsters. 

People just need to understand that HNM or any of the kids are going to have games where they look out of their depth, only the truly exceptional players look good consistently from a young age.

I don’t expect consistency from him, or any of our young players. I guess the point I wanted to make was that today we saw what he is capable of, and we haven’t seen that often due to him not being played to his strengths. 

Edit; I probably should have read to the end of the thread before responding as so many of you said what I meant, only you put it better.

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2 hours ago, RedRock said:

Odd, isn’t it?

It’s City ‘thing’.

Buy a player for £££’s then play him out of position or shackle him to such a degree their natural talent is wasted.

HNM referred to his strongest position pushing forward in an attacking midfield role.... let him prove that. 

 

 

Wasn't that his position on the left for his previous club? The guy's 19 so what. He looks stronger now, he's very mobile and today he got forward and even belted one but straight at their keeper. I want him to get the ball in midfield and run at the opposition, do one two's and shoot for goal when he gets near their pen. He could be the missing link going forward. Bit like Vyner in defensive midfield. 

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1 hour ago, TomThumb84 said:

I would love to know, when Holden managed to get the job, in his head, what his 1-11 was and how we would set up.

He clearly had a vision of a 5-3-2 (3-5-2) attacking, free-flowing, footballing unit, but with who?

Clearly Walsh and Williams were two of the midfield 3, Paterson as the “Number 10”?.

Palmer or even Massengo (as alluded to, justifiably, on this thread) if invested in correctly would have claim to that surely.

Wells and Martin were clearly his front two of choice, was that a reason for Fam stalling on a contract? Or the fact he would not sign one meant he went with Wells and Martin?

Mainly rhetorical questions and injuries have made a massive impact, but I think most successful managers have a preferred system and personnel that obviously they deviate from, but try to get close to over planning a season.

I guess my point is, it was clear to all that Dean had a specific way he wanted to play, how many of the side now know they were second fiddle and/or squad members at the start of the season, and whats the impact of that? Could be positive as they have a point to prove?

I suspect most managers have a system and 1-11 in their head in pre-season.  Most don’t get half way into September before it’s in shreds!!!

The point you make re Fam is a good one.

He returned late from Senegal and had to quarantine (assume with club’s blessing), so was way behind the rest of the squad going into the season.  Started on the bench, didn’t really make an impact when he came on, and was behind Semenyo too for a period.  As you say it helped Holden form an opinion that Martin and Wells is his best pairing.

At that point, he might rightly question signing a new deal.  Today for the first time all season I reckon he might re-sign.  Gut feel, nothing more.

But your point could apply to Walsh.  Despite platitudes from Holden, he’s down the pecking order when he returns, maybe not as far had everyone been fit.  And he might question whether signing a new deal is in his best interests.

1 hour ago, Blackbird1 said:

Stop this trolling please. Underneath all this rubbish you post there might just be a decent observer of the game, and the talent that play it. Why Oh! why do you continue down this path of making outrageous posts...do you crave attention? 

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

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4 hours ago, spudski said:

When we bought him, I remember LJ saying something along the lines of being a great defensive midfielder, and just what we needed to close out games.

Well from day one... he's never looked like a DM that could play well in the Championship. 

Imo... he's like Nagy in many ways. Better when going forward and with space. Both see a pass and better facing the opposition and going at them. Both drive well into the box as well when given opportunity.

Both Nagy and Massengo have been played not using their best assets imo...Nagy has of late, and Massengo shows when allowed.

Cisse was a DM of note... neither not these two are.

Very strange that Massengo plays as an attacking midfielder rather than a defensive one for France U23s.
I'm not even sure if Monaco ever saw him as a defensive midfielder, either.
Play him further forward and more centrally, and I'm sure he will flourish.

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23 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

Thought he was brilliant when he came on. Granted he was up against tiring PNE players but that Fisher couldn’t live with him. 

Should have seen red for the first challenge for sure.

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