Racism in football

[Spud55]

17 minutes ago, TheReds said:

I disagree, to me the media do report it as football has a massive issue and not simply asking it as a question. It is like the Panorama, Dispatches type programmes, that will go out of their way to only find the people that fit what they want to tell, without a single person to add any balance. If they want to ask every single footballer, ex footballer, poll every fan etc then I would more than welcome it.

Regardless of what they report, the FA/EFL/Sky affiliating with BLM and endorsing taking the knee is doing more harm than good for racism/race relations imo. I really do not see how any of it is positive and what it is actually achieving, apart from more division in the whole of society.

Will agree to disagree as this isn't something that is a 5 minute discussion!

Can I ask how it does any harm? I cannot genuinely fathom a single reason to sensibly be against the taking of the knee and the fight for racial equality, I do not understand how anyone can be against it, indifferent I can get but how anyone can be bothered by people taking a knee to highlight a problem I cannot get me had around. 

[BS2 Red]

13 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

Can I ask how it does any harm? I cannot genuinely fathom a single reason to sensibly be against the taking of the knee and the fight for racial equality, I do not understand how anyone can be against it, indifferent I can get but how anyone can be bothered by people taking a knee to highlight a problem I cannot get me had around. 

There's a weird thought that by telling people not to be racist, they then become racist. That campaigning against racism makes people react by becoming racist.

I can't comprehend that somebody would be non-racist but suddenly turn into a racist because some footballers kneel before a game. More likely that some people that are quietly racist become loudly racist when they see it.

[Spud55]

5 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

There's a weird thought that by telling people not to be racist, they then become racist. That campaigning against racism makes people react by becoming racist.

I can't comprehend that somebody would be non-racist but suddenly turn into a racist because some footballers kneel before a game. More likely that some people that are quietly racist become loudly racist when they see it.

Fair point, however I would argue that exposing these people is not necessarily a bad thing, as if they are a racist they are a racist, allowing the rest of us to see them as they truly are. 

While they are quiet about it they are driving the issues without exposing themselves for what they truly are and opening themselves up to consequences as you can guarantee these "quiet" racists are the ones that mean that if I submitted my cv to multiple companies with my name and then a name such as Mohammed I would get more responses to the CV with my name on it. 

The more they are in the open the more they can be called on their shit. 

[MarcusX]

I personally think the Social Media issue goes deeper than just racism.

There is now a vile culture online to say the most offensive thing you can to someone. You see this on social media very publically but also in online gaming and other mediums. 

I've recently been playing Rocket League on Playstation and I use this as an example because it has an ingame text chat that can be used to communicate with the opposition mid game but apart from gamertag is completely anonymous. The abuse you see is disgusting, homophobic, racist, anti-semitic. You name it, it will be mentioned in a gaming session.

I don't think all of these trolls are actually racist. Most of these people wouldn't say boo to a goose in real life, and most likely don't even believe the things they are saying they just do it because they know it hurts and gets a reaction.

I'm not sure what the solution is beyond banning the social media accounts (and taking police action where possible) and maybe having more accountability or ID linked to an account. It's a cultural thing that really needs to be addressed.

[BS2 Red]

2 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

Fair point, however I would argue that exposing these people is not necessarily a bad thing, as if they are a racist they are a racist, allowing the rest of us to see them as they truly are. 

While they are quiet about it they are driving the issues without exposing themselves for what they truly are and opening themselves up to consequences as you can guarantee these "quiet" racists are the ones that mean that if I submitted my cv to multiple companies with my name and then a name such as Mohammed I would get more responses to the CV with my name on it. 

The more they are in the open the more they can be called on their shit. 

Sorry if my post wasn't very clear, I was agreeing with you. I don't think BLM turns people racist but it certainly exposes a lot of racists who were quiet about it before.

And before that gets jumped on by somebody else, that's not to say all criticism of BLM is racist.

[TheReds]

23 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

Can I ask how it does any harm? I cannot genuinely fathom a single reason to sensibly be against the taking of the knee and the fight for racial equality, I do not understand how anyone can be against it, indifferent I can get but how anyone can be bothered by people taking a knee to highlight a problem I cannot get me had around. 

Taking the knee is associated with BLM, many people despise BLM including many black people and what it represents as an organisation as it is political. People want to watch sport to get away from what is happening in the World and it is an escape for many. If you think they are fighting for racial equality then that is up to you, but many people do not see it that way at all.

 

[BS2 Red]

3 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Taking the knee is associated with BLM, many people despise BLM including many black people and what it represents as an organisation as it is political. People want to watch sport to get away from what is happening in the World and it is an escape for many. If you think they are fighting for racial equality then that is up to you, but many people do not see it that way at all.

 

People are wrong.

Taking the knee started long before the movement of BLM started. And the movement of BLM is not the same as the political group BLM.

And it is very rare that anybody can say why they dislike BLM the political group. All we ever get is some Fox News regurgitation about defunding the police, while ignoring what that actually means.

[TheReds]

Seems absolutely pointless trying to have any sensible discussion on the matter. Disagree with anything like taking the knee and then basically get called a racist, and I wonder why there is not serious discussions on the matter. No discussion and just call the opposition view racist. 

 

[BS2 Red]

1 minute ago, TheReds said:

Seems absolutely pointless trying to have any sensible discussion on the matter. Disagree with anything like taking the knee and then basically get called a racist, and I wonder why there is not serious discussions on the matter. No discussion and just call the opposition view racist. 

 

Nobody has done that.

[TheReds]

3 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

People are wrong.

Taking the knee started long before the movement of BLM started. And the movement of BLM is not the same as the political group BLM.

And it is very rare that anybody can say why they dislike BLM the political group. All we ever get is some Fox News regurgitation about defunding the police, while ignoring what that actually means.

Unless they think exactly like you, then they are right? Can you not accept other views?

Are the likes of Lyle Taylor, Micah Richards, Les Ferdinand racist or as you put it "wrong". Are they not allowed a different opinion to yours? 

 

[BS2 Red]

3 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Unless they think exactly like you, then they are right? Can you not accept other views?

Are the likes of Lyle Taylor, Micah Richards, Les Ferdinand racist or as you put it "wrong". Are they not allowed a different opinion to yours? 

 

You can have different opinions, but not different facts.

Taking the knee was done in the 1960s by Martin Luther King Jr. It was brought back by Colin Kaepernick several years before the BLM movement started.

People might associate taking the knee with BLM. But they are wrong, it's a separate thing. 
 

Edit:

And at no point has anybody said people are not allowed different opinions. Coupled with your "disagree and basically get called a racist", it appears it is you that is not listening to others.

[Spud55]

15 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Taking the knee is associated with BLM, many people despise BLM including many black people and what it represents as an organisation as it is political. People want to watch sport to get away from what is happening in the World and it is an escape for many. If you think they are fighting for racial equality then that is up to you, but many people do not see it that way at all.

 

Taking the knee is more associated with MLK and the civil rights movement as is the Black Lives Matter movement which is  separate from any organisation with the same name. 

If they are not standing for racial equality may I ask what they are actually standing for? 

[Tinmans Love Child]

14 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Taking the knee is associated with BLM, many people despise BLM including many black people and what it represents as an organisation as it is political. People want to watch sport to get away from what is happening in the World and it is an escape for many. If you think they are fighting for racial equality then that is up to you, but many people do not see it that way at all.

 

Personally, although I admire what the FA are trying to do, I think football should probably stay out of any sort of politics.  BLM is a noble cause but part of the problem they have had is that whilst the majority agree that racism is bad and we don’t want it anywhere in society, some of the actions taken in line with the BLM movement have not been well received.

However if it keeps the debate going and highlights shocking acts of racism then that can only be a good thing I guess?

[BS2 Red]

Micah Richards:

I have no idea why TheReds brought Micah into it.

Lyle Taylor is against it. Les Ferdinand doesn't seem pro or anti taking the knee, he just thinks it's diluted and will not help.

Black people have different opinions and don't agree with each other all the time. What a shock! 

[TheReds]

Taking the knee in the UK at football, according to the media was in support of the BLM movement. 

[Spud55]

2 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Personally, although I admire what the FA are trying to do, I think football should probably stay out of any sort of politics.  

Just want to pick up on this, I find this stance very strange personally as politics impacts on absolutely everything, the money I have in my pocket to spend on the football is politics, the way I am treated by the police at a football match is politics, the fact that I am even allowed to go to football is politics, other than sleeping politics plays a role in every aspect of our lives so I find it strange when people say anything should or even can stay out of politics. 

[Spud55]

3 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Taking the knee in the UK at football, according to the media was in support of the BLM movement. 

But the gesture of taking the knee far far predates the BLM movement as do the issues of racial inequality. 

And? What exactly is it about the BLM movement that is a movement pushing for racial equality (rooted in the civil rights struggles of people like MLK and Malcom X etc) that you don't think should be supported? 

[BS2 Red]

2 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Taking the knee in the UK at football, according to the media was in support of the BLM movement. 

The media say all sorts of things.

It started in UK football following the death of George Floyd. It's a mix of reaction to that, reaction to racism, BLM support and wanting to support Black colleagues.

The media just went for a simple "it's BLM!".

But BLM by itself doesn't necessarily mean anything political. Black Lives Matter started as a phrase to say that Black lives matter. There is now a political group using that name, I highly doubt many players are supporters of the political group.

[TheReds]

1 minute ago, Spud55 said:

Just want to pick up on this, I find this stance very strange personally as politics impacts on absolutely everything, the money I have in my pocket to spend on the football is politics, the way I am treated by the police at a football match is politics, the fact that I am even allowed to go to football is politics, other than sleeping politics plays a role in every aspect of our lives so I find it strange when people say anything should or even can stay out of politics. 

So you would be happy for the EDL/Labour/Tories to have a political message at a few games, names on shirts? I certainly wouldn't. Politics may affect every aspect of what we do as a nation, but we do not need it at any event we go to for enjoyment.

[big dosser]

makes i laugh on here talk about hypocrites

how many of you use the word pikey for a traveller or for are rivals is it not the same

how many of you have used the word gypsies in a spiteful way not the right way

is it not the same or is it fine because most travellers are not black

[BS2 Red]

3 minutes ago, TheReds said:

So you would be happy for the EDL/Labour/Tories to have a political message at a few games, names on shirts? I certainly wouldn't. Politics may affect every aspect of what we do as a nation, but we do not need it at any event we go to for enjoyment.

If a political group started using "Bristol City" as a name, do you think our club should have to change its name?

Taking the knee/Black lives matter doesn't mean any more than what it sounds like in the context of footballers.

Just because there is a group using it for political aims isn't a reason for the original meaning to be lost.

[Sturny]

2 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

Just want to pick up on this, I find this stance very strange personally as politics impacts on absolutely everything, the money I have in my pocket to spend on the football is politics, the way I am treated by the police at a football match is politics, the fact that I am even allowed to go to football is politics, other than sleeping politics plays a role in every aspect of our lives so I find it strange when people say anything should or even can stay out of politics. 

Agree with all of this, football will never be apolitical. Like most sports, football is weighted by local indentity so it's natural politics will be involved.  But sometimes I wish it wasn't, sometimes I use football as a real-life refuge from issues. At times I want to be naive and just watch football for what it is. 

[Spud55]

3 minutes ago, TheReds said:

So you would be happy for the EDL/Labour/Tories to have a political message at a few games, names on shirts? I certainly wouldn't. Politics may affect every aspect of what we do as a nation, but we do not need it at any event we go to for enjoyment.

But my point is it is there already, it governs almost every aspect of our lives, and frankly I couldn't care less if the Tories, Labour or monster raving loony party want to turn up at the football makes no bones to me, unless they decide to stop me having my pre match drink with my mates or suddenly make us even less enjoyable to watch, I go to the football to meet up with a few mates and watch a game of football that may or may not be total crap. 

[Tinmans Love Child]

7 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

Just want to pick up on this, I find this stance very strange personally as politics impacts on absolutely everything, the money I have in my pocket to spend on the football is politics, the way I am treated by the police at a football match is politics, the fact that I am even allowed to go to football is politics, other than sleeping politics plays a role in every aspect of our lives so I find it strange when people say anything should or even can stay out of politics. 

Fair enough, to clarify hopefully, the problem for me is that everyone has different political viewpoints, including footballers, so to instruct footballers to do something in line with a particular political viewpoint I.e. BLM when they might have a different view on it seems unfair, as if a player disagrees and doesn’t want to do it, they will no doubt be given grief.

Again, I appreciate what the FA are trying to do, but for me I’m not sure players should be the vehicle for it.  They are on the pitch to play football, not fight one particular cause or another.  If an individual wants to take the knee or another gesture than that’s up to them, but as a collective, I’m not sure.

[Spud55]

2 minutes ago, Sturny said:

Agree with all of this, football will never be apolitical. Like most sports, football is weighted by local indentity so it's natural politics will be involved.  But sometimes I wish it wasn't, sometimes I use football as a real-life refuge from issues. At times I want to be naive and just watch football for what it is. 

And for me at least it is, what the players do before kick off will not affect me or my enjoyment (or lack there of) of the game, unless one of the players comes charging up the back of the south stand and lands one on me. 

I would be far more bothered by that shite 7 nation army over one for the Bristol City before a match then I would be if all the players and staff held up a banner saying I'm a massive **** or took the knee or did anything. 

[BS2 Red]

4 minutes ago, big dosser said:

makes i laugh on here talk about hypocrites

how many of you use the word pikey for a traveller or for are rivals is it not the same

how many of you have used the word gypsies in a spiteful way not the right way

is it not the same or is it fine because most travellers are not black

You're right that people use those words as insults. It's wrong to do so and I never use them as insults.

It doesn't have to be a competition between Black rights and Traveller rights though. Any racism is wrong.

[Spud55]

2 minutes ago, Tinmans Love Child said:

Fair enough, to clarify hopefully, the problem for me is that everyone has different political viewpoints, including footballers, so to instruct footballers to do something in line with a particular political viewpoint I.e. BLM when they might have a different view on it seems unfair, as if a player disagrees and doesn’t want to do it, they will no doubt be given grief.

Again, I appreciate what the FA are trying to do, but for me I’m not sure players should be the vehicle for it.  They are on the pitch to play football, not fight one particular cause or another.  If an individual wants to take the knee or another gesture than that’s up to them, but as a collective, I’m not sure.

I don't think BLM as a movement is political, as I cant think racial equality is a political debate or choice, it should be a given. 

And I agree it should be up to an individual to either take the knee or not I don't think it should be forced, one of most interesting conversations about this subject was between Jason Bell and Osi Umenyiora on this subject (more to do with the US side obviously as they are ex NFL players)

[ZiderEyed]

Racism is a learned behaviour, and informed by race - a social construct.

So racism is societally constructed, and the levels and extent of racism depends upon the current culture of a society, the recent events in a society, and the material conditions of the people who are most likely to be racist and experience racism. The UK is led by a Prime Minister with a history of racist comments, has barely finished dealing with a highly nationalistic referendum on EU membership, and has a press that is owned and led by some very racist media magnates. 

Why are we surprised? It's not just social media and it's not just football. The UK has a problem with racism. Lots of countries do. 

[Tinmans Love Child]

1 minute ago, Spud55 said:

I don't think BLM as a movement is political, as I cant think racial equality is a political debate or choice, it should be a given. 

And I agree it should be up to an individual to either take the knee or not I don't think it should be forced, one of most interesting conversations about this subject was between Jason Bell and Osi Umenyiora on this subject (more to do with the US side obviously as they are ex NFL players)

I agree that racism in all its forms is not political, but BLM has been around a number of years as a political movement I believe.

[Sturny]

14 minutes ago, Spud55 said:

And for me at least it is, what the players do before kick off will not affect me or my enjoyment (or lack there of) of the game, unless one of the players comes charging up the back of the south stand and lands one on me. 

I would be far more bothered by that shite 7 nation army over one for the Bristol City before a match then I would be if all the players and staff held up a banner saying I'm a massive **** or took the knee or did anything. 

That's fair enough. I would say the same thing tbh if someone commented what I did at the end of the day. But football isn't just the 90 minutes is it? I just like to watch football and be naive/switch off from the outside world sometimes.