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Racism in football


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3 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

What is taking the knee achieving, maybe it’s like a red rag to a bull to the people posting these comments, could it be doing more harm than good?

How is upsetting racists doing more harm than good?

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17 minutes ago, phantom said:

Let's get this straight now, as you are drifting into pointing the finger at others and getting very close to incorrect and personally offensive remarks. 

Just to clarify your point you are stating that there is a racism problem in the UK based on these footballers getting abused? 

I am not basing it solely on footballers getting abused, obviously. I’m not an idiot. I’m basing it on listening to black people tell me about it  

Why did you ask for evidence of problem? Surely it’s because you don’t think a problem exists 

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11 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

What is taking the knee achieving, maybe it’s like a red rag to a bull to the people posting these comments, could it be doing more harm than good?

How could it be doing harm? Non racists should at worst ignore it and at best embrace a defiant statement

A man kneeling down does not offend me. The fact he feels the need to kneel does offend me 

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4 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

How could it be doing harm? Non racists should at worst ignore it and at best embrace a defiant statement

A man kneeling down does not offend me. The fact he feels the need to kneel does offend me 

It was just a question, maybe it, for the want of a better word, taunts them, who knows.

Also, do you think it is actually achieving anything now?  It’s certainly not stopping abuse on SM.

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10 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

I am not basing it solely on footballers getting abused, obviously. I’m not an idiot. I’m basing it on listening to black people tell me about it  

Why did you ask for evidence of problem? Surely it’s because you don’t think a problem exists 

Because you implied racism is a problem in the UK, yet cannot back up that claim with anything other than a very small number of footballers being targeted on twitter. 

If that's your definition of saying others have a problem I'm afraid you are a long way away from the truth 

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2 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

It was just a question, maybe it, for the want of a better word, taunts them, who knows.

Also, do you think it is actually achieving anything now?  It’s certainly not stopping abuse on SM.

I don’t know what it’s achieving but it’s a defiant statement that it won’t be accepted which is better than nothing.  

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The problem is racism will always be part of society.  Its just racists have platforms afforded them that mean they can make more noise than is proportionate to their number.  The hate for clicks lot have got it spot on, for every racist comment there are ~250x comments speaking out against it, this is paradoxical in that racism makes twitter, insta etc more money however it also reflects that racism is a small part of society.  I think a little more policing on the part of twitter and etc and by the actual police and it would be quickly stamped out. 

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Just now, phantom said:

Because you implied racism is a problem in the UK, yet cannot back up that claim with anything other than a very small number of footballers being targeted on twitter. 

If that's your definition of saying others have a problem I'm afraid you are a long way away from the truth 

How big do you think it has to get to make it a problem?  How do you want me to back up my claim? I have black family members who face racism about once a week at best or once a month at worst.  

Are you happy with once per month or is that too much? 

Dont tell me what the truth is.  Go and ask people how often they face racism and let them tell you the truth.  

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1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

How big do you think it has to get to make it a problem?  How do you want me to back up my claim? I have black family members who face racism about once a week at best or once a month at worst.  

Are you happy with once per month or is that too much? 

Dont tell me what the truth is.  Go and ask people how often they face racism and let them tell you the truth.  

I've many black and multi cultural friends and colleagues they don't have any problems and never had.

You are claiming it's a UK wide problem on the basis of a few tweets and a family chat. I was simply asking you to back up your claim

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26 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

How is upsetting racists doing more harm than good?

I read it as he meant that it puts the idea into peoples minds.

I'd bet that the kind of people tweeting this nonsense are clearly not the brightest to start with, and in their pea brains probably assume some kind of self satisfaction from posting it?

Like any crime, paying a price is the only way these idiots will learn 

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7 minutes ago, phantom said:

I've many black and multi cultural friends and colleagues they don't have any problems and never had.

You are claiming it's a UK wide problem on the basis of a few tweets and a family chat. I was simply asking you to back up your claim

I’m glad they don’t face racism.  If I’ve got people telling me they do then that’s going to shape my view massively.  Same as you say there isn’t a problem because of what you are told.  

 

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1 hour ago, phantom said:

You are claiming it's a UK wide problem on the basis of a few tweets and a family chat. I was simply asking you to back up your claim

84% of BAME Britons think the UK is still very or somewhat racist. Yougov survey June 2020.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/06/26/nine-ten-bame-britons-think-racism-exists-same-lev

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3 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

What is taking the knee achieving, maybe it’s like a red rag to a bull to the people posting these comments, could it be doing more harm than good?

I'm not sure if taking the knee is a good thing.  I get the impression that if the stadiums were full of fans a fair few would be opposed to it, and not necessarily becuase they're racist.  A lot of fans like football becuase of its no political simplicity 22 men kicking a ball into the net or not, and go home it's excapism for many. Problem is those that don't to think about it are going to get labeled racist of they disagree with it.  Personally I'm indifferent to it, like many things it's had its meaning twisted, originally it was a guy giving a big **** you to the US national anthum becuase of structural racism in the USA, fair enough.  Its meaning has been pivoted to mean somthing else solidarity which some might not understand.  

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3 hours ago, The Humble Realist said:

Why dont all footballers and all football clubs/organisations come off all social media and encourage fans to do the same for at least the rest of 2021 . Then state theyll only return if these social media companies make significant changes for 2022

Would have a huge impact potentially.

What changes do you want them to make?

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26 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

What changes do you want them to make?

It's up to them what they choose to do. 

Some things they could consider are

Something around blocking the account /deletion 

Something around blocking the IP address

Lobby governments to bring in harsh penalties and then work with governments to help with the process 

Ask people to provide details/Id if they want to use the service 

 

If it was easy we wouldn't be in this position but i feel if ALL of the clubs , players and fans said theyd delete their accounts and not rejoin until 2022 at the earliest some very quick action would be taken by the social.media companies 

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4 hours ago, phantom said:

True, but then the vile racists win and the vast majority of people who use social media correctly get punished. 

Ban them from accessing any social media, convict them and name and shame them

I think do both of these things. The racists dont win if all of football /sport/society stars boycotting the platform where they are being vile ....

Hopefully it would drive action so that within 12 months banning them and charging them would be easier because social media companies get the message that it's not acceptable. 

Literally imagine the impact if all of football and possibly sport came off Instagram, twitter, facebook ...every club, every player,  every journalist and many many fans ....

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Racism/discrimination exist everywhere, it always has and always will sadly.

I have no idea if the percentage of racists in a given area is up, down or no change at all.

The difference is that this percentage now have what appears to be an almost anonymous medium to spout their horrible, abusive bile.

I have no idea how you police such forums.

Im glad we live in a country which legislates against and pursues such acts, as tough as any other country.

Sad stuff.

 

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1 hour ago, 054123 said:

I have no idea how you police such forums.

I've a feeling it's more the platforms don't want to 

OTIB has the ability to trace ISPs so can track what area people are posting from.

OTIB can also block a specific ISP from ever being able to access this site too (only used when banned users keep re-adding new accounts)

Now look at a company the size of Twitter, not a chance that they wouldn't have greater abilities to pinpoint who posts. 

I'm guessing this is how the most recent abusers have been found 

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I apologise if this has already been posted but all online platforms can filter out the abuse and ban the users but they choose not to, so have ago Facebook ,Twitter  , Instagram etc because they can write programs (or whatever they are called these days) and remove this from being out there I assume this is for Money reasons so just fine the £1 mill for every offence the problem goes away.

then you have to stop the parents moulding their children into mini me's (no answer to this).

@phantom beat me to it'

Edited by reddoh
wife came in talking to me didn't hit post
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The trouble with racism is that the media and many other people want to blame everyone for it. Is there racism in the UK, definitely, is there racism in every country in the World, definitely. Granted it is all on different scales etc. The issue I have is no matter how disgusting it is, we have the media/individuals that want to simply blanket call everyone racist. Football fans in general are not racist, there have been 4 players mentioned in this thread who have had tweets, that is from how many millions of fans watch the Sport? Yes, one tweet is too many, but it surely has to be taken in context when it comes to reporting that we are somewhat a hugely racist country - which I do not believe for one bit. I have black family and friends and none of them have mentioned any racism at all, maybe they are just lucky? But none of them see some criticism as racism, and criticism seems to now be labelled as racism at every opportunity. We need to stop the narrative that racism is absolutely everywhere as it is creating a victim mentality imo and doesn't do anyone any favours longterm.

None of my black family members I have spoken to agree with BLM or taking the knee, and it seems pretty obvious to me that all it is achieving is the complete opposite of what it is supposed to achieve. It is creating bigger division with football fans, as some see it as solidarity against racism as many have posted on here, and others just see it as political and it represents the BLM organisation on the whole which many people despise - and just because they hold that opinion it does not mean they are racist either.

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53 minutes ago, TheReds said:

The trouble with racism is that the media and many other people want to blame everyone for it. Is there racism in the UK, definitely, is there racism in every country in the World, definitely. Granted it is all on different scales etc. The issue I have is no matter how disgusting it is, we have the media/individuals that want to simply blanket call everyone racist. Football fans in general are not racist, there have been 4 players mentioned in this thread who have had tweets, that is from how many millions of fans watch the Sport? Yes, one tweet is too many, but it surely has to be taken in context when it comes to reporting that we are somewhat a hugely racist country - which I do not believe for one bit. I have black family and friends and none of them have mentioned any racism at all, maybe they are just lucky? But none of them see some criticism as racism, and criticism seems to now be labelled as racism at every opportunity. We need to stop the narrative that racism is absolutely everywhere as it is creating a victim mentality imo and doesn't do anyone any favours longterm.

None of my black family members I have spoken to agree with BLM or taking the knee, and it seems pretty obvious to me that all it is achieving is the complete opposite of what it is supposed to achieve. It is creating bigger division with football fans, as some see it as solidarity against racism as many have posted on here, and others just see it as political and it represents the BLM organisation on the whole which many people despise - and just because they hold that opinion it does not mean they are racist either.

out of interest what do they see the solution as being and is it a quick fix or a long term solution?

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9 hours ago, TheReds said:

The trouble with racism is that the media and many other people want to blame everyone for it. Is there racism in the UK, definitely, is there racism in every country in the World, definitely. Granted it is all on different scales etc. The issue I have is no matter how disgusting it is, we have the media/individuals that want to simply blanket call everyone racist.

That just doesn't happen. I have never seen any media outlet call everyone racist.

No doubt there are a few cranks on social media that have blanketed everyone as racist, but it overwhelmingly doesn't happen.

What does happen is racist people claim the media/people are calling everyone racist. That is then spread around until ordinary and decent people start believing it.

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8 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

That just doesn't happen. I have never seen any media outlet call everyone racist.

No doubt there are a few cranks on social media that have blanketed everyone as racist, but it overwhelmingly doesn't happen.

What does happen is racist people claim the media/people are calling everyone racist. That is then spread around until ordinary and decent people start believing it.

Ok, so the everyone part was a bit extreme, but I thought it was fairly obvious what I thought or was trying to say. So in your opinion are the media reporting it fairly and in context, and just blaming or focusing on the 4 racist people out of the many millions of football fans which is how many zeros of a single percent of the fans, or are they reporting it as football has a really massive issue? Rather than society has an issue? 

At least the media part seems to be the only bit you disagreed with!

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20 minutes ago, TheReds said:

Ok, so the everyone part was a bit extreme, but I thought it was fairly obvious what I thought or was trying to say. So in your opinion are the media reporting it fairly and in context, and just blaming or focusing on the 4 racist people out of the many millions of football fans which is how many zeros of a single percent of the fans, or are they reporting it as football has a really massive issue? Rather than society has an issue? 

At least the media part seems to be the only bit you disagreed with!

The media are reporting on the story. There's racist abuse of a player or players, the media report that and ask if football has a problem. They'll talk to "experts", ex-players and then ask if football can do more.

The media is rarely very nuanced in their reporting of any story. It's all about the number of viewers/clicks.

But I don't see them accusing all football fans of having a problem. And I'm far angrier about the racism existing than I am about hamfisted media reporting. 

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9 hours ago, reddoh said:

out of interest what do they see the solution as being and is it a quick fix or a long term solution?

None of the ones I have spoken to about it see a solution to racism in general, racists will be racists no matter what. There are obviously ways that social media can deal with the problem on there as it has given a platform to racists to spout off, but until you punish them properly it will just carry on, but it will be by the very very tiny minority and I think that also has to be said. I grew up in the 70s when it was obviously more in the open then, and was probably more accepted as the norm to refer to black people as certain names, that has obviously changed a lot. I think as a society we have came on massively, and education at an early age of what is right and what is wrong is huge. Plenty of young kids know what they cannot say as it is drummed into them from an early age. My mixed race nephew was called the n word a few weeks ago on an online game by a 10 year old girl at his school - what hope has that girl got for the future though, I expect her parents obviously see that as fine so I do not know where you go with that to be honest?

There is also a fine line of what is and what isn't classed as racist, and many people think differently of where the line is. I am not a fan of others just calling people racist for criticising someone who is black, whether that is Raheem Sterling, Meghan Markel, MPs etc and I think that is the road we are on at the moment. If hundreds of people called Rashford crap on the weekend on social media then many will call it racist abuse, yet if the same comments were against Kane then it seems to be fine. In my opinion we are creating a huge victim mentality, and the likes of BLM/media/some Politicians are driving this and creating huge division. Just because a black person doesn't get a job it doesn't mean it is because of the colour of their skin, just because a black person is stopped whilst driving it doesn't mean it is automatically racist - are there racist stops and bias in job interviews, yes of course there will be, but it will be the tiny, tiny minority. 

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37 minutes ago, BS2 Red said:

The media are reporting on the story. There's racist abuse of a player or players, the media report that and ask if football has a problem. They'll talk to "experts", ex-players and then ask if football can do more.

The media is rarely very nuanced in their reporting of any story. It's all about the number of viewers/clicks.

But I don't see them accusing all football fans of having a problem. And I'm far angrier about the racism existing than I am about hamfisted media reporting. 

I disagree, to me the media do report it as football has a massive issue and not simply asking it as a question. It is like the Panorama, Dispatches type programmes, that will go out of their way to only find the people that fit what they want to tell, without a single person to add any balance. If they want to ask every single footballer, ex footballer, poll every fan etc then I would more than welcome it.

Regardless of what they report, the FA/EFL/Sky affiliating with BLM and endorsing taking the knee is doing more harm than good for racism/race relations imo. I really do not see how any of it is positive and what it is actually achieving, apart from more division in the whole of society.

Will agree to disagree as this isn't something that is a 5 minute discussion!

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