Better but so jealous....

[TomThumb84]

Just now, Kodjias Wrist said:

As I have said in several posts this evening they are class to watch well run etc but haven't achieved the sole aim of almost every team in this league....to get promoted.

Its inevitable that they will, thats the difference. Primed for it.

Someone made the comment earlier about trajectory, we are on a conflicting one to them.

[Sniper]

34 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

I

I know and it looked it but why? Again our spending power is such that we shouldn’t be.

Fosu was £750k.

It's got to be a bad scouting network?

Players (or their wags) are not interested in anywhere but London? Definitely not Bristol.

Ivan Toney I think was touted at around 8 to 10 Million by Peterborough. Even with FFP was could have signed him, but it never seems to happen, we always seem to be the team that miss out. Canos, Pukki, Ollie Watkins something is not right!

I doubt that we will ever get promoted in my life time as we just can't get it right, sad but true

[Sheltons Army]

13 minutes ago, Maltshoveller said:

For every team with a smaller fan base above us

there is a bigger club with more fans below us

That’s the Bristol City attitude and ambition, for decades .... right there

[Dolman_Stand]

3 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

Its a fair point but the clubs you have quoted have had some bonkers owners making suicidal financial decisions. We don’t.

We aspire to be like Brentford, but lack the conviction to face the main things holding us back and addressing them, namely recruitment, allocation of responsibility and clarity and transparency of ambition.

Agreed, I think using the business model we are currently you are always going to hit  bit of a ceiling in this league unless it is carried out perfectly. Brentford seem to have it this way currently and we don't. I would say though that they probably have to go up this season as the new rules around Brexit may make it harder or certainly more expensive for them given they seem to sign a lot of players from abroad that probably wouldn't qualify for a work permit now.

[Cidre Monita]

1 minute ago, One Team said:

I have read a few comments (and I think I have caught myself saying this) that we are miles behind Brentford.

This conveys a point that we are on the same path, road or track and that over time we will get to where they are.

I think tonight really underlines that this point isn’t really accurate; at least in my view. We aren’t behind Brentford at all; we are on a completely different trajectory. 

We are not even close to replicating Brentford. Transfer policy and approach are not even close. In years gone by, we saw clubs go past us to the Prem. There are a lot of them. 49 clubs have got to the Prem, we are not one of them. In the past the apologists have called on parachute payments, cheating, bigger club, lucky, Warnock, you name it every excuse to defend our continued nonsense. Now if after these years in the Championship, we had progressed, why on earth are we looking at a team with our highest wage bill (higher than Brentford) highest cost to assemble (higher than Brentford) yet are looking at a squad where you cannot see anyone who is going to attract a big transfer fee. Meaning the assets on hand, after all this time, time when we should be rich in player depth and talent, yet we have replicated the total BS of the last 20 years of signing average players who are never going to play at a higher level and are at their limits. All you can see is our return back to a relegation battle, where you already know half the squad will not want to be around for. When we have had recent years success, the characteristic of the team was that it had many players with something to prove. 

We have had millions, had some great transfer income, but threw the plan out of the window, yet again, and reverted to type. We have wasted our greatest opportunity. The lack of any semblance of footballing philosophy, strategy or identity, whatever you want to call it, matched to a rigorous transfer policy backed by extensive scouting means we are sliding back to square one again, and hoping not worse. But if you employ people who do not know what they are doing, learning on the job, or worse making it up, you get what you deserve. That is the sad part. it is not about promotion, who really cares , it is more about looking at the club and believing what they are doing and enjoying the adventure. It is not about the owner spending more, in fact whenever we have had more money we get worse at what we do. The club needs to clear out the recruitment people and the main coaches , and set out a clear footballing philosophy, and stick with it, by employing much much higher quality  people to deploy it. 

Others feel we are doing great, and that is their view and they are entitled to it. But when a club like Brentford (no disrespect , more a comparison of resources/history) makes us look tinpot, you have to ask questions.

[Dullmoan Tone]

22 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Not sure why that is sad, but anyway Brentford are undoubtedly an outstanding team who would probably be doing better in the Prem than West Brom or Fulham, if they’d gone up.  Interesting comment about our best 11.  What would that be?  Something like:

Bentley

Kalas Mawson Baker

Sessegnon Williams Walsh Dasilva

Palmer (or Weimann)

Diedhiou Wells

I agree it would interesting to see what a line-up like that could have done.

What’s sad from my pov is it will perpetuate the view that we are doing ok and competing with teams like Brentford (who lets not forget have no parachute payments, only astute recruitment and selling to fund them); rather than addressing the frankly terrible performances (FA Cup aside - bizarrely).

Not sure why you think Walsh is in our best Championship 11 - but admire your optimism! Perhaps this says a lot - someone we haven’t seen for more than a year must be better than this current selection - that’s also perhaps sad !

[sludge]

16 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

Its a fair point but the clubs you have quoted have had some bonkers owners making suicidal financial decisions. We don’t.

We aspire to be like Brentford, but lack the conviction to face the main things holding us back and addressing them, namely recruitment, allocation of responsibility and clarity and transparency of ambition.

You make a fair point there. How many other clubs have had the consistency of ownership like we’ve had over the last 20 years. 
 

Everyone’s entitled to make mistakes but frustratingly our owner never seems to learn from his. 

[TomThumb84]

4 minutes ago, Psychopomp said:

We are not even close to replicating Brentford. Transfer policy and approach are not even close. In years gone by, we saw clubs go past us to the Prem. There are a lot of them. 49 clubs have got to the Prem, we are not one of them. In the past the apologists have called on parachute payments, cheating, bigger club, lucky, Warnock, you name it every excuse to defend our continued nonsense. Now if after these years in the Championship, we had progressed, why on earth are we looking at a team with our highest wage bill (higher than Brentford) highest cost to assemble (higher than Brentford) yet are looking at a squad where you cannot see anyone who is going to attract a big transfer fee. Meaning the assets on hand, after all this time, time when we should be rich in player depth and talent, yet we have replicated the total BS of the last 20 years of signing average players who are never going to play at a higher level and are at their limits. All you can see is our return back to a relegation battle, where you already know half the squad will not want to be around for. When we have had recent years success, the characteristic of the team was that it had many players with something to prove. 

We have had millions, had some great transfer income, but threw the plan out of the window, yet again, and reverted to type. We have wasted our greatest opportunity. The lack of any semblance of footballing philosophy, strategy or identity, whatever you want to call it, matched to a rigorous transfer policy backed by extensive scouting means we are sliding back to square one again, and hoping not worse. But if you employ people who do not know what they are doing, learning on the job, or worse making it up, you get what you deserve. That is the sad part. it is not about promotion, who really cares , it is more about looking at the club and believing what they are doing and enjoying the adventure. It is not about the owner spending more, in fact whenever we have had more money we get worse at what we do. The club needs to clear out the recruitment people and the main coaches , and set out a clear footballing philosophy, and stick with it, by employing much much higher quality  people to deploy it. 

Others feel we are doing great, and that is their view and they are entitled to it. But when a club like Brentford (no disrespect , more a comparison of resources/history) makes us look tinpot, you have to ask questions.

Very good post.

Sadly the rhetoric and hyperbole that spills out of our clubs masks the fact that we are on a downward trend and a bit confused.

I felt almost embarrassed tonight watching that and listening to Sky, as we were described and viewed as “plucky underdog” and, patronisingly “lots of positives”.

Hold on, weren’t we meant to be peppering the top of the league or at least top 6 this season, showing year on year progression? And now we are lucky we are gracing the same playing surface as Brentford??!!

[BS4 on Tour...]

54 minutes ago, Wiltshire robin said:

Another team with a much smaller fan base and potential that pass us by 

Exactly, Brentford will be the next Burnley or Bournemouth 

[Wiltshire robin]

2 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Exactly, Brentford will be the next Burnley or Bournemouth 

Add Oldham, Swindon , Charlton , Barnsley,Bradford , bolton and Wimbledon 

[Cidre Monita]

4 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

Very good post.

Sadly the rhetoric and hyperbole that spills out of our clubs masks the fact that we are on a downward trend and a bit confused.

I felt almost embarrassed tonight watching that and listening to Sky, as we were described and viewed as “plucky underdog” and, patronisingly “lots of positives”.

Hold on, weren’t we meant to be peppering the top of the league or at least top 6 this season, showing year on year progression? And now we are lucky we are gracing the same playing surface as Brentford??!!

We bought Wells, 29 going on 30 , not a hope of resale or ability to play in Prem. Brentford signed Toney. Already talked about as a 20M target for Arsenal. Just that transfer explains perfectly the differences in approach, and alarmingly, how far we have ventured away from the approach, the owner told us was key. But then everything he says needs a large pinch of salt . 

[Swede]

Envious yes. 

They have a clear pathway recruit the right players and have a dynamic coach that fits the system.

They are streets ahead of us and good luck to them. Its a sad indictment of where we are as a football club. They are gathering pace and forging ahead whereas we are stumbling around with no identity heading towards mid table obscurity, looking downward rather than upward with an inexperienced Head Coach way out of his depth and being run by a hierarchy who are fast losing touch with the fan base.

[TomThumb84]

9 minutes ago, Psychopomp said:

We bought Wells, 29 going on 30 , not a hope of resale or ability to play in Prem. Brentford signed Toney. Already talked about as a 20M target for Arsenal. Just that transfer explains perfectly the differences in approach, and alarmingly, how far we have ventured away from the approach, the owner told us was key. But then everything he says needs a large pinch of salt . 

I would say our current squad whilst being the most expensively assembled ever and with having a very high wage bill, it currently has a resale value the lowest we have probably seen since SOD left and before Cotts then put his Champions together.

Bentley, Semenyo and maybe Nagy will maybe sell for more than bought.

[cheesleywalksoncider]

12 minutes ago, Psychopomp said:

We are not even close to replicating Brentford. Transfer policy and approach are not even close. In years gone by, we saw clubs go past us to the Prem. There are a lot of them. 49 clubs have got to the Prem, we are not one of them. In the past the apologists have called on parachute payments, cheating, bigger club, lucky, Warnock, you name it every excuse to defend our continued nonsense. Now if after these years in the Championship, we had progressed, why on earth are we looking at a team with our highest wage bill (higher than Brentford) highest cost to assemble (higher than Brentford) yet are looking at a squad where you cannot see anyone who is going to attract a big transfer fee. Meaning the assets on hand, after all this time, time when we should be rich in player depth and talent, yet we have replicated the total BS of the last 20 years of signing average players who are never going to play at a higher level and are at their limits. All you can see is our return back to a relegation battle, where you already know half the squad will not want to be around for. When we have had recent years success, the characteristic of the team was that it had many players with something to prove. 

We have had millions, had some great transfer income, but threw the plan out of the window, yet again, and reverted to type. We have wasted our greatest opportunity. The lack of any semblance of footballing philosophy, strategy or identity, whatever you want to call it, matched to a rigorous transfer policy backed by extensive scouting means we are sliding back to square one again, and hoping not worse. But if you employ people who do not know what they are doing, learning on the job, or worse making it up, you get what you deserve. That is the sad part. it is not about promotion, who really cares , it is more about looking at the club and believing what they are doing and enjoying the adventure. It is not about the owner spending more, in fact whenever we have had more money we get worse at what we do. The club needs to clear out the recruitment people and the main coaches , and set out a clear footballing philosophy, and stick with it, by employing much much higher quality  people to deploy it. 

Others feel we are doing great, and that is their view and they are entitled to it. But when a club like Brentford (no disrespect , more a comparison of resources/history) makes us look tinpot, you have to ask questions.

Brilliant post. I appreciate that trying to get a team promoted from the Championship is not easy but we just keep making the same mistakes. Our wage bill has doubled in the last 5 years and we are going backwards so something isn’t working. If I was Steve Lansdown I would be looking at our peers such as Brentford and see what they are doing. Okay we may not be able to replicate it 100% but it seems a good starting point. Not at Ashton Gate we have the Del Amitri plan “nothing never happens no nothing at all - the needle returns to the start of the song - and we all sing along like before”

[One Team]

33 minutes ago, Psychopomp said:

We are not even close to replicating Brentford. Transfer policy and approach are not even close. In years gone by, we saw clubs go past us to the Prem. There are a lot of them. 49 clubs have got to the Prem, we are not one of them. In the past the apologists have called on parachute payments, cheating, bigger club, lucky, Warnock, you name it every excuse to defend our continued nonsense. Now if after these years in the Championship, we had progressed, why on earth are we looking at a team with our highest wage bill (higher than Brentford) highest cost to assemble (higher than Brentford) yet are looking at a squad where you cannot see anyone who is going to attract a big transfer fee. Meaning the assets on hand, after all this time, time when we should be rich in player depth and talent, yet we have replicated the total BS of the last 20 years of signing average players who are never going to play at a higher level and are at their limits. All you can see is our return back to a relegation battle, where you already know half the squad will not want to be around for. When we have had recent years success, the characteristic of the team was that it had many players with something to prove. 

We have had millions, had some great transfer income, but threw the plan out of the window, yet again, and reverted to type. We have wasted our greatest opportunity. The lack of any semblance of footballing philosophy, strategy or identity, whatever you want to call it, matched to a rigorous transfer policy backed by extensive scouting means we are sliding back to square one again, and hoping not worse. But if you employ people who do not know what they are doing, learning on the job, or worse making it up, you get what you deserve. That is the sad part. it is not about promotion, who really cares , it is more about looking at the club and believing what they are doing and enjoying the adventure. It is not about the owner spending more, in fact whenever we have had more money we get worse at what we do. The club needs to clear out the recruitment people and the main coaches , and set out a clear footballing philosophy, and stick with it, by employing much much higher quality  people to deploy it. 

Others feel we are doing great, and that is their view and they are entitled to it. But when a club like Brentford (no disrespect , more a comparison of resources/history) makes us look tinpot, you have to ask questions.

I wanted to stand up and applaud this after reading it!

Excellent post.

[RedNachos]

59 minutes ago, irishreds said:

Matthew Benham and his team are on a different level to Ashton and his growing empire.

It's the chairman's job to review and make the necessary changes.

I know Benham personally, very impressive, will do everything for the club and has the skills required to run a football club, cough, John Lansdown.

[Dr Balls]

11 minutes ago, RedNachos said:

I know Benham personally, very impressive, will do everything for the club and has the skills required to run a football club, cough, John Lansdown.

And that is the clear difference. Benham has a plan and has stuck to it. He’s also been somewhat ruthless with managers at times, such as ditching Warburton not long after he got them promoted. He supposedly uses a form of “moneyball” for recruitment, ditched their youth policy completely (too much competition in London) and it’s been working for them. A shiny new ground that they share with London Irish rugby and regularly pushing for promotion to the Premier League while making a profit out of their transfer dealings. It’s everything SL wants but can’t achieve with us.

Time to face facts. SL is more interested in the Bears, where he has listened to an expert back room team, who know the club and rugby, and appointed the best possible coach for what he wants to achieve. And by the looks of things they will.

We on the other hand have Mark Ashton and JL, who have shown little evidence that their appointments and strategy for City will achieve any tangible success, let alone promotion. Another season to write off at the halfway mark...

[Bodiesaffer]

51 minutes ago, sludge said:

You make a fair point there. How many other clubs have had the consistency of ownership like we’ve had over the last 20 years. 
 

Everyone’s entitled to make mistakes but frustratingly our owner never seems to learn from his. 

On the pitch yes, off it, he’s got it right. 

[RedNachos]

40 minutes ago, Psychopomp said:

We are not even close to replicating Brentford. Transfer policy and approach are not even close. In years gone by, we saw clubs go past us to the Prem. There are a lot of them. 49 clubs have got to the Prem, we are not one of them. In the past the apologists have called on parachute payments, cheating, bigger club, lucky, Warnock, you name it every excuse to defend our continued nonsense. Now if after these years in the Championship, we had progressed, why on earth are we looking at a team with our highest wage bill (higher than Brentford) highest cost to assemble (higher than Brentford) yet are looking at a squad where you cannot see anyone who is going to attract a big transfer fee. Meaning the assets on hand, after all this time, time when we should be rich in player depth and talent, yet we have replicated the total BS of the last 20 years of signing average players who are never going to play at a higher level and are at their limits. All you can see is our return back to a relegation battle, where you already know half the squad will not want to be around for. When we have had recent years success, the characteristic of the team was that it had many players with something to prove. 

We have had millions, had some great transfer income, but threw the plan out of the window, yet again, and reverted to type. We have wasted our greatest opportunity. The lack of any semblance of footballing philosophy, strategy or identity, whatever you want to call it, matched to a rigorous transfer policy backed by extensive scouting means we are sliding back to square one again, and hoping not worse. But if you employ people who do not know what they are doing, learning on the job, or worse making it up, you get what you deserve. That is the sad part. it is not about promotion, who really cares , it is more about looking at the club and believing what they are doing and enjoying the adventure. It is not about the owner spending more, in fact whenever we have had more money we get worse at what we do. The club needs to clear out the recruitment people and the main coaches , and set out a clear footballing philosophy, and stick with it, by employing much much higher quality  people to deploy it. 

Others feel we are doing great, and that is their view and they are entitled to it. But when a club like Brentford (no disrespect , more a comparison of resources/history) makes us look tinpot, you have to ask questions.

This is a brilliant post. Our board has no bollocks.

When we've been at our best was the cup run.

Cup run we had a philosophy of high pressing intensity football with Bobby Reid leading the line. We had belief, club spirit and a direction. The stand-outs then leave in Flint, Reid, Bryan. We don't recruit players who fit the philosophy of that season, we replace poorly, we sink. LJ goes as he doesn't have press-football players and is forced to play long ball. DH comes in, has no clue about any sense of philosophy in terms of recruitment. The summer was massive, the last chance to freely go abroad, we ****** it and signed a mismatch -

Unproven loan

Warnock midfielder

Fat ageing striker

Useless old midfielder

Short-pass BPD loan

Ageing slow defensive full-back

Creative low work-rate midfielder

No connection in terms of playing style, misfits and irregulars. No core tactical and philosophical connection. Then you leave a guy with no experience or managerial identity in charge, and we wonder where this is going...

The quote I can pull up from all this is 

'Paul and Keith are both very different guys, they bring something different each tactically'

Massive insight into the club with an overlooked clause. 

What do all the current great teams recently have in common.

Man City - tiki-taka, tiki-taka recruitment
Liverpool - High energy press - high energy press recruitment
Leicster - Quick ball movement - Quick players, sharp passers
West Ham - Playing of the big men - Pacy wingers, big midfielder + striker

I know I'm not the most popular fella on here at the moment given a certain post, but it all links:

Ashton OUT
JL OUT
Recruitment OUT
And its a shame after a decent performance but DH OUT

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Not sure why that is sad, but anyway Brentford are undoubtedly an outstanding team who would probably be doing better in the Prem than West Brom or Fulham, if they’d gone up.  Interesting comment about our best 11.  What would that be?  Something like:

Bentley

Kalas Mawson Baker

Sessegnon Williams Walsh Dasilva

Palmer (or Weimann)

Diedhiou Wells

I agree it would interesting to see what a line-up like that could have done.

I'd modify that lineup:

            Bentley 

    Kalas Mawson Baker

Sessegnon Williams Walsh DaSilva

    Weimann         Paterson

                Wells

Fluid! Balanced...and 6/11 injured with a 7th just returning.

[TomThumb84]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'd modify that lineup:

            Bentley 

    Kalas Mawson Baker

Sessegnon Williams Walsh DaSilva

    Weimann         Paterson

                Wells

Fluid! Balanced...and 6/11 injured with a 7th just returning.

So no Hunt, Semenyo, Vyner, Nagy or Diedhiou?

Are you saying your side is out best 11, or just picking a side with the most injured players in it to prove a hypothetical point that cannot be dis-proved?!?

[Mr Popodopolous]

18 minutes ago, TomThumb84 said:

So no Hunt, Semenyo, Vyner, Nagy or Diedhiou?

Are you saying your side is out best 11, or just picking a side with the most injured players in it to prove a hypothetical point that cannot be dis-proved?!?

Not sure I'd start Diedhiou tbh!

Hunt then, alright- Vyner- you can make a case for, he's certainly done better than expected and maybe wouldn't deserve dropping- Vyner-Kalas-Mawson. Nagy I generally think is decent- is it our best 11? It's a squad game, you can pick a variety of options- I'm not even sure 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 is my favourite but Weimann in a wide right- NOT WINGER- and Paterson wide left could offer some useful tactical balance.

[Red_Alligator]

2 hours ago, sludge said:

You make a fair point there. How many other clubs have had the consistency of ownership like we’ve had over the last 20 years. 
 

Everyone’s entitled to make mistakes but frustratingly our owner never seems to learn from his. 

I agree Sludge. As set-up's go, everything would seem to be there - thanks to SL's deep pockets. 

Except the team to get us to the top flight. The one thing that we all care about the most.

That's what cuts so deep - as Reading, Wigan, Hull, Bournemouth, Blackpool, Brighton, Huddersfield etc have managed to make it happen.

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Exactly, Brentford will be the next Burnley or Bournemouth 

They might well be, but Bournemouth did cheat FFP.

Burnley are a different case altogether. Very well run club and have been for years- though Parachute Payments did help post relegation in 2010, this absolutely helped. Full credit to them, very well run- but what Burnley did is they capitalised on strong momentum.

They beat a number of PL sides in 2008/09 Carabao Cup and ran Tottenham very close in the semi final- sounds familiar eh! The difference is, that they went up through the playoffs that same year.

This then set them up with PL cash, 4 years of Parachute Payments- and they went up in Year 4! Went straight back up in 2015/16, but a lot of good management on and off the pitch too- though their Eddie Howe experiment didn't work out.

Full credit to them, but they seized the momentum at the opportune time- struck when the iron was hot. This helped to set them up for years to come, especially as they only spent moderate amounts in the PL. Paid down debt, gradually improved over time.

Had they not struck when the iron was hot in 2008/09 though, one wonders how it might have panned out for them. Okay off the pitch of course, wouldn't expect anything else but on it?

By the very same token albeit with differences, had we capitalised on the momentum from our Cup run in 2017/18, how would we have panned out- indeed be panning out today? Well hopefully! Or even in 2007/08, had we won that final...?

[Fuber]

3 hours ago, Maltshoveller said:

For every team with a smaller fan base above us

there is a bigger club with more fans below us

Well we're certainly heading their direction (Derby, Wednesday), and not Brentford's, imo.

All comes down to Identity, Philosophy, however you word it.. Brentford have stuck to a strategy since Rosler (2012) and got better at it each year, essentially moneyball.

Now it's bearing consistent fruit. We lasted 3 years under 'the pillars' and then lobbed them out the window. No consistency, and since 2018 we're on a downward trajectory in terms of recruitment and performances. Only table position has saved us face.

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Fuber said:

Well we're certainly heading their direction (Derby, Wednesday), and not Brentford's, imo.

All comes down to Identity, Philosophy, however you word it.. Brentford have stuck to a strategy since Rosler (2012) and got better at it each year, essentially moneyball.

Now it's bearing consistent fruit. We lasted 3 years under 'the pillars' and then lobbed them out the window. No consistency, and since 2018 we're on a downward trajectory in terms of recruitment and performances. Only table position has saved us face.

We also have a metric shit ton of injuries and have for a while now- once these ease we will be able to have more options, play with more consistency and an ability to rotate more.

That said, on the recruitment front- think it's been mixed, but this summer with a lot out of contract and wages widely forecast to fall at Championship level, we have a chance to turn the tide. A window of opportunity.

We must seize it though- we possibly have a rare chance to reboot- this summer could determine our path for the next few years IMO, it's that important.

[pillred]

3 hours ago, Psychopomp said:

We are not even close to replicating Brentford. Transfer policy and approach are not even close. In years gone by, we saw clubs go past us to the Prem. There are a lot of them. 49 clubs have got to the Prem, we are not one of them. In the past the apologists have called on parachute payments, cheating, bigger club, lucky, Warnock, you name it every excuse to defend our continued nonsense. Now if after these years in the Championship, we had progressed, why on earth are we looking at a team with our highest wage bill (higher than Brentford) highest cost to assemble (higher than Brentford) yet are looking at a squad where you cannot see anyone who is going to attract a big transfer fee. Meaning the assets on hand, after all this time, time when we should be rich in player depth and talent, yet we have replicated the total BS of the last 20 years of signing average players who are never going to play at a higher level and are at their limits. All you can see is our return back to a relegation battle, where you already know half the squad will not want to be around for. When we have had recent years success, the characteristic of the team was that it had many players with something to prove. 

We have had millions, had some great transfer income, but threw the plan out of the window, yet again, and reverted to type. We have wasted our greatest opportunity. The lack of any semblance of footballing philosophy, strategy or identity, whatever you want to call it, matched to a rigorous transfer policy backed by extensive scouting means we are sliding back to square one again, and hoping not worse. But if you employ people who do not know what they are doing, learning on the job, or worse making it up, you get what you deserve. That is the sad part. it is not about promotion, who really cares , it is more about looking at the club and believing what they are doing and enjoying the adventure. It is not about the owner spending more, in fact whenever we have had more money we get worse at what we do. The club needs to clear out the recruitment people and the main coaches , and set out a clear footballing philosophy, and stick with it, by employing much much higher quality  people to deploy it. 

Others feel we are doing great, and that is their view and they are entitled to it. But when a club like Brentford (no disrespect , more a comparison of resources/history) makes us look tinpot, you have to ask questions.

In it's own way the saddest post of the night why I ask myself can me and you and  frankly most of us on here see it, I have been following and supporting city for over 55 years  I was 24 years old the last time we were in the top flight doing simple maths will tell you I am now 65 years old think about that for one minute, a lot on here say if we went up we would just come straight back down better to improve slowly until we are ready. as if we can just choose when we go up many of us have been there done that and bought a lifetime of t shirts hearing the same old promises every season, at the moment we are regressing and I am really beginning to think those few years in the top flight will be the only ones I ever see, watching teams like Brentford and all the other teams like Cardiff, Reading, pass us by frankly it's soul-destroying unless SL wakes up we will be playing in a half empty stadium within two years. 

[Fuber]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We also have a metric shit ton of injuries- once these ease we will be able to have more options, play with more consistency and an ability to rotate more.

That said, on the recruitment front- think it's been mixed, but this summer with a lot out of contract and wages widely forecast to fall, we have a chance to turn the tide. A window of opportunity.

I'd argue that comes under the Identity issue still tho Pop.

Less jobs for (Ashton's) the boys, and more jobs for actual achievements and people connected and with a passion for the club.

We never adequately replaced Rhys Carr, or that's what the surface evidence appears to show. Since he left we've been plagued by back pre seasons and fitness issues. Rolls having been at least present for similar blow ups at Watford and Arsenal before joining us. Mates with (you guessed it), Marky boy.

It's almost like a Mafia ring.

I can appreciate Ashton's negotiating. But not much else. A large portion of our lack of direction since his takeover as CEO can be laid at his feet. Only made worse with the farcical circumstances of Holden's appointment over the summer and communique from the club over the past 3 years.

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, pillred said:

In it's own way the saddest post of the night why I ask myself can me and you and  frankly most of us on here see it, I have been following and supporting city for over 55 years  I was 24 years old the last time we were in the top flight doing simple maths will tell you I am now 65 years old think about that for one minute, a lot on here say if we went up we would just come straight back down better to improve slowly until we are ready. as if we can just choose when we go up many of us have been there done that and bought a lifetime of t shirts hearing the same old promises every season, at the moment we are regressing and I am really beginning to think those few years in the top flight will be the only ones I ever see, watching teams like Brentford and all the other teams like Cardiff, Reading, pass us by frankly it's soul-destroying unless SL wakes up we will be playing in a half empty stadium within two years. 

These two spent quite heavily in days before FFP- our closest equivalent would have been if Lansdown rolled the dice for £20-25m in fees and wages, back in Jan 2008, when we were top 2 or in and around- that would have been an opportune time IMO. On the other hand, there is also an argument to suggest that our fairly controlled- alright lucky at times too especially away from home- style of play, was compromised by Adebola. Good player, good option but I enjoyed us more before Christmas that year! With our fairly controlled 4-4-1-1- Noble behind the striker. Carle I wonder if we played him in his best position- given Noble's patchy fitness at times, might a similar shape but with Carle in the Noble role have been an idea to have used more often?

[Mr Popodopolous]

17 minutes ago, Fuber said:

I'd argue that comes under the Identity issue still tho Pop.

Less jobs for (Ashton's) the boys, and more jobs for actual achievements and people connected and with a passion for the club.

We never adequately replaced Rhys Carr, or that's what the surface evidence appears to show. Since he left we've been plagued by back pre seasons and fitness issues. Rolls having been at least present for similar blow ups at Watford and Arsenal before joining us. Mates with (you guessed it), Marky boy.

It's almost like a Mafia ring.

I can appreciate Ashton's negotiating. But not much else. A large portion of our lack of direction since his takeover as CEO can be laid at his feet. Only made worse with the farcical circumstances of Holden's appointment over the summer and communique from the club over the past 3 years.

Yeah, read bits about this on here- will be honest and say I don't know so much about behind the scenes.

Rhys Carr? Know little about but a quick search tells me that he is at Sheffield United- a club who have done a lot right in recent years. If it's good enough for them...wasn't there someone who went to Southampton as well, thinking on the recruitment side? Again if he's good enough for them...Sam Stanton another that springs to mind, why did he leave- Ashton striking again? Rolls as you say has form, based on what you say and what I've read on here.

Yeah that 6 weeks really was ridiculous- actually think in the circs Holden hasn't done so badly, ie a lot of the shit notably injuries isn't his fault and yet we're still midtableish, and a couple of moderate Cup runs, will even be our best FA Cup run since 1974 if we win our next one- would be interesting to see what he could do with most of the squad fit. Although his whole "Put 3 or 4 up front" as his go to tactic when chasing the game grates! Tonight a bit more variety but the general "Stick on a load of strikers"- that kind of setup is usually just ineffective, possibly even counterproductive.

The whole 3-4 up front when behind aside, yeah would be interesting to see what he could do if not having to firefight, improvise with consistent and rolling injuries.