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Independent review of BCFC training sessions


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12 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Yes you can, it’s happening at other clubs too.  Southampton have been decimated by injury, and even Liverpool have had serious problems, for instance.  Rather than look for silly conspiracy theories, how about understanding how difficult it is for sportspeople during the pandemic?

Southampton are missing 9, Liverpool 6. Whilst both playing more games than us due to the Cup.

We are missing; DaSilva, Rowe, Pring, Baker, Sess, Williams, Walsh, Lansbury, Adelukun, ODowda, Weimann, Martin (11) - whilst only just having Pato return, and with long lay offs for Mawson too. None of these injuries are for a week or so, all are long term.

Can you name any clubs WORSE than us?

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43 minutes ago, Selred said:

Southampton are missing 9, Liverpool 6. Whilst both playing more games than us due to the Cup.

We are missing; DaSilva, Rowe, Pring, Baker, Sess, Williams, Walsh, Lansbury, Adelukun, ODowda, Weimann, Martin (11) - whilst only just having Pato return, and with long lay offs for Mawson too. None of these injuries are for a week or so, all are long term.

Can you name any clubs WORSE than us?

Yes agreed, we’ve been very unlucky.

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1 minute ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Yes agreed, we’ve been very unlucky.

Louis Carey was unlucky to drop a BBQ on his foot. Constant muscle injuries, in a world where we have conditioning experts to stop this happening, isn't due to luck.

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7 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Yes agreed, we’ve been very unlucky.

You have to look in a bit more depth than simply counting numbers as a comparison. Missing 9 is not as bad if 5 of them are muscle strains with players scheduled to be back in a fortnight. BCFC - missing 11 for 8 weeks plus seems to be the norm. We don't do strains - we do ruptures and tears. If you did a chart of players "working days" missed I think we would annihilate everyone out of sight................you don't need to invent a conspiracy theory to say to yourself as a club "let's get someone in to have a look at this and just make sure nothing is going wrong at our end".

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4 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

I have to say it's reached the point where you are literally burying your head in the sand. I really think that. It's not about conspiracy theories, its about the following:

We had a clear mis-diagnosis of injury with Paterson

We had the non-diagnosis of a season ender with Adelakun

We had rehabilitation issues with one of our new signings which he has gone to the media about and which was confirmed in interview by the Manager

We had a player who CLEARLY wasn't remotely fit to play on Saturday who is now out for months

Add in the fact that we never pick up 2-3 week hamstring injuries and strains, no every single injury we get is a rupture/tear or whatever and is literally months rather than weeks out and even you must accept that some sort of root and branch investigation is in order?  In fact that's another thing that Dean Holden has confirmed in interview.

If you are ‘literally burying your head in the sand’ you should know that that is very dangerous. 

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31 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

You have to look in a bit more depth than simply counting numbers as a comparison. Missing 9 is not as bad if 5 of them are muscle strains with players scheduled to be back in a fortnight. BCFC - missing 11 for 8 weeks plus seems to be the norm. We don't do strains - we do ruptures and tears. If you did a chart of players "working days" missed I think we would annihilate everyone out of sight................you don't need to invent a conspiracy theory to say to yourself as a club "let's get someone in to have a look at this and just make sure nothing is going wrong at our end".

Plus a lot of Liverpool’s injuries were ‘in game impact’ injuries rather than ‘muscular training’ injuries. 

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Bristol City Injuries Of Yore

I mentioned in a thread the other week of the 13 months we once went without using a substitute. I'm sure some clever soul out there will know how many of those games we finished with fewer than 11 men? Not many I reckon.

Thereafter, in my memory, there were only two types of injury at AG;

The Merrington (later The Cheesley)

Your bones aren't where they should be and there's no tissue to prevent them rubbing together - that's why it hurts so much and you can barely walk. You not be playing 'for a while', if ever.

The Edwards

Rob is unable to join in games today as: he has stomach ache* / his cuticle is inflamed* / he has a cold sore* / he slept badly and has developed a stiff neck* (*delete as appropriate.) Thankfully, we didn't have too many Robs on the books.

Anything in-between saw Uncle Les bring out his miracle embrocation, fill a bath full of cold or tepid ( we couldn't afford the heating) water, and flex his manipulative fingers. That tweak, niggle' or pull lasted no more than a week (doubtless the sight of our physio dragging one leg miles behind the other induced the fear of God into those who felt need of his treatment room.) When it came Buster's turn I think no player dare tell him they were injured. Even Baird played on post Buster slapping him on the back telling him he was OK - the broken rib sticking in his lung to be sorted post match.

Could be my memory plays tricks but either players in the olden days were far physically superior and robust, else the risk averse world in which we now find ourselves isn't condusive to football.

Good news for you all is I've developed 'touchscreen finger' - City's medics tell me I could be back on the forum by the middle of next season, setbacks not withstanding.

 

 

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8 hours ago, bcfcnick said:

I wonder if training sessions are a bit too physical.  When Dean was first appointed he said he wanted to see a more competitive spirit in training.  It was words to the effect of 'not scraps exactly but a bit of argy-bargy.'   

All good intentioned  of course and probably he was aiming to get rid of the 'too soft' reputation etc but with the amount of games in a limited time span this season, then the players need to be protected. I think they should do the reverse  and ease off the physical exertion element in training. 

There are other ways of getting that squad competitive spirit and bonding without pushing the players to the max in training in the current context.

I couldn't agree more. I submitted a post a few weeks ago, having watched a YouTube video of training at Failand, expressing my surprise at the intensity of training, including "first teamers", when matches were coming every 3/4 days. In my view the emphasis should be on rest and recuperation, and perhaps it is no coincidence then  that we have all these injuries with this training regime.

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12 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

I have to say it's reached the point where you are literally burying your head in the sand. I really think that. It's not about conspiracy theories, its about the following:

We had a clear mis-diagnosis of injury with Paterson

We had the non-diagnosis of a season ender with Adelakun

We had rehabilitation issues with one of our new signings which he has gone to the media about and which was confirmed in interview by the Manager

We had a player who CLEARLY wasn't remotely fit to play on Saturday who is now out for months

Add in the fact that we never pick up 2-3 week hamstring injuries and strains, no every single injury we get is a rupture/tear or whatever and is literally months rather than weeks out and even you must accept that some sort of root and branch investigation is in order?  In fact that's another thing that Dean Holden has confirmed in interview.

I suspect a certain poster (not you Robbored) will probably attack this post of mine as well, but here goes!

Im not one for conspiracy theories.  I’ve posted my thoughts on the injuries and the medical staff in previous weeks and in fairness I’ve given them the benefit of the doubt.  We aren’t close to individuals and their exact roles and if I was to guess at root cause, it would be that whatever plan we put in place pre-season, possibly coupled with the return to play last season after lockdown, where the players did a mini-pre-season) might have been wrongly conceived, e.g. getting the players fit for a condensed season wasn’t quite “calibrated” properly.  I can only compare it to a finely tuned racing car that breaks down.  Some of our injuries have happened in abnormal scenarios, e.g. Callum O’Dowda’s hamstring was not whilst heavily exerting himself, he even said he was jogging and it just went.  That doesn’t happen normally in the 75th minute of a game.  So sounds like brought upon by fatigue, but the more worrying thing for me is that the player hasn’t felt it “getting worse”, so it’s ended up tearing rather than just a tweak / tightening.  That really worries me, because if the medical science / data isn’t picking up fatigue abd the player isn’t recognising it either, then it’s hardly a surprise when an injury does happen, it’s gonna be a bad one.  That’s where I’m a bit dumbfounded.

Now, of course you could argue that’s incompetence, perhaps it is, but it’s not an area I’ve got much knowledge in, other than being injury prone myself, so I can’t really lay blame.  It’s not been great by any stretch of the imagination though, and questions need to be asked, and as others have suggested, it’s pretty pointless “marking our own homework”.

Anyway, back on track, we’ve heard of more and more injuries appearing to be “minor” but turning out to be anything but minor at a later point.

Ive noted that Holden mentioned on a couple occasions that they’ve sought a second opinion from a different specialist.  What I don’t know is if the first opinion is in-house or external, nor the second one too.  But there does seem to be some mis-diagnosis along the way.

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21 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Bristol City Injuries Of Yore

I mentioned in a thread the other week of the 13 months we once went without using a substitute. I'm sure some clever soul out there will know how many of those games we finished with fewer than 11 men? Not many I reckon.

Thereafter, in my memory, there were only two types of injury at AG;

The Merrington (later The Cheesley)

Your bones aren't where they should be and there's no tissue to prevent them rubbing together - that's why it hurts so much and you can barely walk. You not be playing 'for a while', if ever.

The Edwards

Rob is unable to join in games today as: he has stomach ache* / his cuticle is inflamed* / he has a cold sore* / he slept badly and has developed a stiff neck* (*delete as appropriate.) Thankfully, we didn't have too many Robs on the books.

Anything in-between saw Uncle Les bring out his miracle embrocation, fill a bath full of cold or tepid ( we couldn't afford the heating) water, and flex his manipulative fingers. That tweak, niggle' or pull lasted no more than a week (doubtless the sight of our physio dragging one leg miles behind the other induced the fear of God into those who felt need of his treatment room.) When it came Buster's turn I think no player dare tell him they were injured. Even Baird played on post Buster slapping him on the back telling him he was OK - the broken rib sticking in his lung to be sorted post match.

Could be my memory plays tricks but either players in the olden days were far physically superior and robust, else the risk averse world in which we now find ourselves isn't condusive to football.

Good news for you all is I've developed 'touchscreen finger' - City's medics tell me I could be back on the forum by the middle of next season, setbacks not withstanding.

 

 

We got Merrington from Burnley,  he was injured all season and never actually played a game for us, if my memory serves me correctly.

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22 hours ago, Selred said:

Southampton are missing 9, Liverpool 6. Whilst both playing more games than us due to the Cup.

We are missing; DaSilva, Rowe, Pring, Baker, Sess, Williams, Walsh, Lansbury, Adelukun, ODowda, Weimann, Martin (11) - whilst only just having Pato return, and with long lay offs for Mawson too. None of these injuries are for a week or so, all are long term.

Can you name any clubs WORSE than us?

I make that 12.

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14 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I suspect a certain poster (not you Robbored) will probably attack this post of mine as well, but here goes!

Im not one for conspiracy theories.  I’ve posted my thoughts on the injuries and the medical staff in previous weeks and in fairness I’ve given them the benefit of the doubt.  We aren’t close to individuals and their exact roles and if I was to guess at root cause, it would be that whatever plan we put in place pre-season, possibly coupled with the return to play last season after lockdown, where the players did a mini-pre-season) might have been wrongly conceived, e.g. getting the players fit for a condensed season wasn’t quite “calibrated” properly.  I can only compare it to a finely tuned racing car that breaks down.  Some of our injuries have happened in abnormal scenarios, e.g. Callum O’Dowda’s hamstring was not whilst heavily exerting himself, he even said he was jogging and it just went.  That doesn’t happen normally in the 75th minute of a game.  So sounds like brought upon by fatigue, but the more worrying thing for me is that the player hasn’t felt it “getting worse”, so it’s ended up tearing rather than just a tweak / tightening.  That really worries me, because if the medical science / data isn’t picking up fatigue abd the player isn’t recognising it either, then it’s hardly a surprise when an injury does happen, it’s gonna be a bad one.  That’s where I’m a bit dumbfounded.

Now, of course you could argue that’s incompetence, perhaps it is, but it’s not an area I’ve got much knowledge in, other than being injury prone myself, so I can’t really lay blame.  It’s not been great by any stretch of the imagination though, and questions need to be asked, and as others have suggested, it’s pretty pointless “marking our own homework”.

Anyway, back on track, we’ve heard of more and more injuries appearing to be “minor” but turning out to be anything but minor at a later point.

Ive noted that Holden mentioned on a couple occasions that they’ve sought a second opinion from a different specialist.  What I don’t know is if the first opinion is in-house or external, nor the second one too.  But there does seem to be some mis-diagnosis along the way.

Many of these injuries undergo some early scanning (often MRI) to accurately assess the degree of damage. I am not clear if that’s happening or not, but as long as the scans are accurately reported then there shouldn’t be too much doubt. The next question going back from that is whether or not the injuries are being correctly diagnosed in the first place, and then having the correct investigations. And unless someone has inside knowledge on the workings of the BCFC medical/physio/fitness team, the rest is speculation based on a very long injury list, injuries mainly picked up in training rather than in games, and a bit of hearsay on social media, which as we all know may not be 100% factually accurate...

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On 04/02/2021 at 07:59, Harry said:

I’ve only just realised that we only had 8 on the bench last night. 
So presume that means Lansbury was also injured? Otherwise, why not fill the bench? 
 

Has anything been said by the club on this? Or are we into more deception?? 

 

Dislocated his wrist signing the loan agreement.

 

Seriously, I don't think it's a "conspiracy theory" to examine quite why we pick up so many injuries in training. Having it looked at by an external sports injury expert brought in for just such a study would be illuminating. 

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21 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

Dislocated his wrist signing the loan agreement.

 

Seriously, I don't think it's a "conspiracy theory" to examine quite why we pick up so many injuries in training. Having it looked at by an external sports injury expert brought in for just such a study would be illuminating. 

...........and put the issue to bed once and for all. What is the club scared of? It might prove they have been doing everything correctly all along and we really have been the subject of incredibly bad luck.

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1 hour ago, kingswood red said:

We got Merrington from Burnley,  he was injured all season and never actually played a game for us, if my memory serves me correctly.

That's right, hence his testimonial.

Good player and coach, though we only saw the latter. There was rumour we signed him knowing he had serious issues with his tendons (unlike City that...) and believe his leg majorly gave way in one of his first training sessions. Suffice to say it was a career ending injury straight off, not as with our present mob of a 'tight calf' turning into a career threatening injury.

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16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I suspect a certain poster (not you Robbored) will probably attack this post of mine as well, but here goes!

Im not one for conspiracy theories.  I’ve posted my thoughts on the injuries and the medical staff in previous weeks and in fairness I’ve given them the benefit of the doubt.  We aren’t close to individuals and their exact roles and if I was to guess at root cause, it would be that whatever plan we put in place pre-season, possibly coupled with the return to play last season after lockdown, where the players did a mini-pre-season) might have been wrongly conceived, e.g. getting the players fit for a condensed season wasn’t quite “calibrated” properly.  I can only compare it to a finely tuned racing car that breaks down.  Some of our injuries have happened in abnormal scenarios, e.g. Callum O’Dowda’s hamstring was not whilst heavily exerting himself, he even said he was jogging and it just went.  That doesn’t happen normally in the 75th minute of a game.  So sounds like brought upon by fatigue, but the more worrying thing for me is that the player hasn’t felt it “getting worse”, so it’s ended up tearing rather than just a tweak / tightening.  That really worries me, because if the medical science / data isn’t picking up fatigue abd the player isn’t recognising it either, then it’s hardly a surprise when an injury does happen, it’s gonna be a bad one.  That’s where I’m a bit dumbfounded.

Now, of course you could argue that’s incompetence, perhaps it is, but it’s not an area I’ve got much knowledge in, other than being injury prone myself, so I can’t really lay blame.  It’s not been great by any stretch of the imagination though, and questions need to be asked, and as others have suggested, it’s pretty pointless “marking our own homework”.

Anyway, back on track, we’ve heard of more and more injuries appearing to be “minor” but turning out to be anything but minor at a later point.

Ive noted that Holden mentioned on a couple occasions that they’ve sought a second opinion from a different specialist.  What I don’t know is if the first opinion is in-house or external, nor the second one too.  But there does seem to be some mis-diagnosis along the way.

And that’s this season. 
I haven’t done the sort of analysis above for earlier seasons, but my memory is that this has been going on for several seasons. Not just numbers of injuries, but ones that begin as ‘out for the next game’ turning into weeks or months, barely seeing new players before they are out injured.

I’m with you; getting some kind of external audit can’t be a bad thing surely. Someone with the knowledge who can go through the records (assuming we keep them!) of all our injuries and reviewing what happened. It’s not about conspiracy theories, it’s about learning and just maybe improving how we manage in future. 

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5 minutes ago, italian dave said:

And that’s this season. 
I haven’t done the sort of analysis above for earlier seasons, but my memory is that this has been going on for several seasons. Not just numbers of injuries, but ones that begin as ‘out for the next game’ turning into weeks or months, barely seeing new players before they are out injured.

I’m with you; getting some kind of external audit can’t be a bad thing surely. Someone with the knowledge who can go through the records (assuming we keep them!) of all our injuries and reviewing what happened. It’s not about conspiracy theories, it’s about learning and just maybe improving how we manage in future. 

It amazes me that people have such a problem with this when it is such an obvious thing to undertake for a sports related business relying on it's prime assets, many valued at upwards of £1m, to be fit. People who think the club should just put it in the "we've been rather unlucky" file are every bit as bad as those who have made their mind up already that everyone is guilty as charged. Just do an independent investigation and get whatever conclusion they come back with out into the open. We are owned by a billionaire and yet the club is so amateur in the way it goes about things at times it defies belief.

If National Express bought a huge fleet of new coaches at £250K per pop and they kept breaking down and requiring major repairs every single time would they be putting it down to "a bit of rough luck old chap"?

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