OK So Who?

[Sir Geoff]

36 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I agree with much of this - but the problem remains that key players are very tired and returning players have to get minutes in order to regain match fitness.  All this has to be performed with a residual squad that lacks left footed players and traditional strong players. We look weak and do not currently have the player resources to compete in every match.  If players like Bakinson, who is very promising, are overplayed - then there is a risk to their progress.  Tired players carrying knocks are more likely to get injuries, as we recently saw with Rowe. Pace and strength are not available in sufficient measure right now.

This just winds me up. Bakinson is 22. Phil Foden is 20, Marcus Rashford 23. Has Rashfords progress been risked by playing so many games ? Foden has played approaching 100 games has his progress been risked ?

At what age is it ok to play more than a handful of games at a time ??

[Phileas Fogg]

54 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I agree with much of this - but the problem remains that key players are very tired and returning players have to get minutes in order to regain match fitness.  All this has to be performed with a residual squad that lacks left footed players and traditional strong players. We look weak and do not currently have the player resources to compete in every match.  If players like Bakinson, who is very promising, are overplayed - then there is a risk to their progress.  Tired players carrying knocks are more likely to get injuries, as we recently saw with Rowe. Pace and strength are not available in sufficient measure right now.

What would you deem as an unacceptable performance in terms of league finish and at what point would you want to see Holden and/or Ashton go? 

[BS4 on Tour...]

On 07/02/2021 at 01:01, Mr Popodopolous said:

@Taz @Roger Red Hat

Would I want Campbell? No. However at least he has worked his way up, or might have started doing so anyway unlike the (relatively speaking) Silver Spoon brigade of Arteta, Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney and maybe Vieira though not so sure on his career appointments thusfar. Early career trajectory?? Well and truly underqualified, though I suppose Derby job sounds more attractive on paper than in reality right now in Rooney's case.

Solskjaer too maybe, though at least he did manage Molde and Cardiff- still clubs that just appoint former heroes or what not, deserve all they get when inevitably proven out of their depth, or at least proven out of their depth at that early stage.

Campbell otoh, was handed not one but two Hospital Passes at Macclesfield and Southend. They didn't go so well but he got stuck in, he kept Macclesfield up I think?

I don’t agree with all that - Arteta was a coach / assistant manager for three years before he got the Arsenal job. And Campbell did less than a year at both Macclesfield and Southend - he even backed a HMRC winding up order against Macclesfield and tried to get nearly £200k out of them after he had left - and as a player he signed a five year contract at Notts County before walking out on the club three days after making his debut, saying he ‘felt a mug’ and was ‘embarrassed’ - leading to a superb banner held up by the County fans at their next games proclaiming “We had Sol but he’s not a soldier” - so, a pretty questionable attitude all round from Mr Campbell in my opinion ...

[Bat Fastard]

46 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

What would you deem as an unacceptable performance in terms of league finish and at what point would you want to see Holden and/or Ashton go? 

I would hope that he would be given enough time to compete with a much fuller squad and in more normal circumstances.  He has a good and experienced crew to help him push on towards better results if he can get some of his key players back on the pitch.  I always feel uncomfortable when people on here start braying about sacking everyone as soon as we have a difficult spell irrespective of the reasons.  If, heaven forbid, we lost another half a dozen experienced players, would the level of anger rise further and would that be tempered by a degree of understanding from the fans?  Nothing about the current situation is ideal and I doubt if changes in management would help very much at this stage - unless they can discover the kinds of players that we need from our reduced squad.  Every change of management leads to changes in staff, player and backroom people - the cost can be huge, time is wasted and there is no guarantee of success.  I still recall the last time we picked an experienced winning manager in Tony Pulis. How did that end up?

[Sheltons Army]

25 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I would hope that he would be given enough time to compete with a much fuller squad and in more normal circumstances. .....

......  I still recall the last time we picked an experienced winning manager in Tony Pulis. How did that end up?

Pushing aside those ‘hope’ beads , that keep appearing

 

The last experienced and winning manager we had was actually some bloke called Cotterill

The one before that a certain Mr Johnson , not the one who talks a good game , the one who had multiple promotions and even a bit of International football on his CV

 

Could you just pop the parasols over there , the passengers will be out soon to have a look at the icebergs....

[Bristol Oil Services]

15 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I would hope that he would be given enough time to compete with a much fuller squad and in more normal circumstances.  He has a good and experienced crew to help him push on towards better results if he can get some of his key players back on the pitch.  I always feel uncomfortable when people on here start braying about sacking everyone as soon as we have a difficult spell irrespective of the reasons.  If, heaven forbid, we lost another half a dozen experienced players, would the level of anger rise further and would that be tempered by a degree of understanding from the fans?  Nothing about the current situation is ideal and I doubt if changes in management would help very much at this stage - unless they can discover the kinds of players that we need from our reduced squad.  Every change of management leads to changes in staff, player and backroom people - the cost can be huge, time is wasted and there is no guarantee of success.  I still recall the last time we picked an experienced winning manager in Tony Pulis. How did that end up?

I wish football was as kind and gentle and nice and forgiving as you are. But as we know, it's nothing of the sort. Nice, decent, well meaning sorts like yourself get walked all over in professional football. 

I know you will be happy enough whether we are trundling along 10th in the Championship, L1 or even L2 - as long as you have a club to follow - but Steve Lansdown needs a promotion from this division. At some point.

The man's forked out £200,000,000 plus now. He was embarrassed in 2013 when we were relegated with a fat wage bill. He needs tangible success now, not more humiliation.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I don’t agree with all that - Arteta was a coach / assistant manager for three years before he got the Arsenal job. And Campbell did less than a year at both Macclesfield and Southend - he even backed a HMRC winding up order against Macclesfield and tried to get nearly £200k out of them after he had left - and as a player he signed a five year contract at Notts County before walking out on the club three days after making his debut, saying he ‘felt a mug’ and was ‘embarrassed’ - leading to a superb banner held up by the County fans at their next games proclaiming “We had Sol but he’s not a soldier” - so, a pretty questionable attitude all round from Mr Campbell in my opinion ...

Not a great fan of Campbell tbh, reasons you state a part of that one- wasn't fully aware of Arteta's backstory but coaching/assistant managing will help- seem to recall he did some with Guardiola.

Clearly has a questionable attitude but he got stuck in and kept Macclesfield up- not a cushy start by any means.

Would have to check but was he sacked by both or did he walk? Quick search of the League Table from that time suggests he took over bottom, 7 points from safety having played a game more than the team closest out of the drop- 9 points if we're talking all games being equal etc.

[Phileas Fogg]

27 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I would hope that he would be given enough time to compete with a much fuller squad and in more normal circumstances.  He has a good and experienced crew to help him push on towards better results if he can get some of his key players back on the pitch.  I always feel uncomfortable when people on here start braying about sacking everyone as soon as we have a difficult spell irrespective of the reasons.  If, heaven forbid, we lost another half a dozen experienced players, would the level of anger rise further and would that be tempered by a degree of understanding from the fans?  Nothing about the current situation is ideal and I doubt if changes in management would help very much at this stage - unless they can discover the kinds of players that we need from our reduced squad.  Every change of management leads to changes in staff, player and backroom people - the cost can be huge, time is wasted and there is no guarantee of success.  I still recall the last time we picked an experienced winning manager in Tony Pulis. How did that end up?

Thanks for your answer. With respect, lots of waffle but what I was after was something measurable and I feel like you didn’t really answer the question.

What would be an unacceptable league finish in your view?

At what point should Holden and/or Ashton go? 

[Bat Fastard]

2 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

I wish football was as kind and gentle and nice and forgiving as you are. But as we know, it's nothing of the sort. Nice, decent, well meaning sorts like yourself get walked all over in professional football. 

I know you will be happy enough whether we are trundling along 10th in the Championship, L1 or even L2 - as long as you have a club to follow - but Steve Lansdown needs a promotion from this division. At some point.

The man's forked out £200,000,000 plus now. He was embarrassed in 2013 when we were relegated with a fat wage bill. He needs tangible success now, not more humiliation.

Then right now he needs to magic up a number of miracle cures for the stricken squad members.  I was a huge fan of both GJ and Cotts but they went the way of all managers eventually.  By recruiting rookie managers, we must expect to give them time to learn on the job,

[Red-Robbo]

17 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I would hope that he would be given enough time to compete with a much fuller squad and in more normal circumstances.  He has a good and experienced crew to help him push on towards better results if he can get some of his key players back on the pitch.  I always feel uncomfortable when people on here start braying about sacking everyone as soon as we have a difficult spell irrespective of the reasons.  If, heaven forbid, we lost another half a dozen experienced players, would the level of anger rise further and would that be tempered by a degree of understanding from the fans?  Nothing about the current situation is ideal and I doubt if changes in management would help very much at this stage - unless they can discover the kinds of players that we need from our reduced squad.  Every change of management leads to changes in staff, player and backroom people - the cost can be huge, time is wasted and there is no guarantee of success.  I still recall the last time we picked an experienced winning manager in Tony Pulis. How did that end up?

 

TBH apart from Weimann , DaSilva and Baker,  he has the majority of the first XI he'd pick available. No manager goes through a truncated season like this with two games a week the norm, without losing some key players. It's how you react and reorganise that shows your mettle. 

We know there is some talent here, but how he sends them out is not playing to those strengths. The coaching is so poor that we struggle to defend routine set pieces, and just can't seem to do the very basics. The players are going backwards ability-wise.

So it's about more than the results: it's about the extremely poor quality of football played, and the underachievement of inheriting a decent squad and slowly making them look L1 standard.

Johnson had us hovering just below the Top 6 with occasional forays in. Holden's trajectory is downwards and the brief Indian Summer in September was us playing teams that had brought in a lot of players in the close season and hadn't yet gelled.

We had the opportunity to build on Johnson's legacy and push on for glory, but by picking a rookie (and a rookie who hadn't even looked that good when he was in temporary charge before being appointed) we effectively signalled we weren't interested on building on anyone's legacy. 

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not a great fan of Campbell tbh, reasons you state a part of that one- wasn't fully aware of Arteta's backstory but coaching/assistant managing will help- seem to recall he did some with Guardiola.

Clearly has a questionable attitude but he got stuck in and kept Macclesfield up- not a cushy start by any means.

Campbell is quite an odd guy. Similar to David James in some ways. Wouldn’t want either as manager.

I feel like it’s the right time for us to have an authoritative manager to give us a lift. We’ve had a ‘project’ type since 2016. This doesn’t mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater - we can still focus on bringing on young players. I just feel like we need a manager who commands respect and I don’t feel Holden does.

We needed that in 05’ with GJ and 14’ with SC. Both times we levelled up as a club.

Paul Cook would be shrewd I think. Seems a logical choice. Doesn’t seem the type to tolerate our current structure though.

[Bat Fastard]

3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Thanks for your answer. With respect, lots of waffle but what I was after was something measurable and I feel like you didn’t really answer the question.

What would be an unacceptable league finish in your view?

At what point should Holden and/or Ashton go? 

I would accept whatever is dictated by the points.  Sometimes we have luck with things like injuries and sometimes not.  We cannot control everything and Dean cannot do much about his star players being unavailable.

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Bat Fastard said:

I would accept whatever is dictated by the points.  Sometimes we have luck with things like injuries and sometimes not.  We cannot control everything and Dean cannot do much about his star players being unavailable.

Still no answer! Two simple questions and not one simple answer.

What about if we got relegated, would you accept that? Should Holden stay regardless? 

[Sheltons Army]

1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Still no answer! Two simple questions and not one simple answer.

What about if we got relegated, would you accept that? Should Holden stay regardless? 

I think you’re going to be here a long time

 

[Bat Fastard]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Still no answer! Two simple questions and not one simple answer.

What about if we got relegated, would you accept that? Should Holden stay regardless? 

It has bugger all to do with what I would accept.  If we lost another dozen players in the next week and had to play the youth team - would you accept that or call for heads to roll?

[Taz]

3 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I would accept whatever is dictated by the points.  Sometimes we have luck with things like injuries and sometimes not.  We cannot control everything and Dean cannot do much about his star players being unavailable.

Do you get a sore bum from sitting up on that fence? 

Get your point about giving them time as a rookie manager, but there comes a time when they need to learn that bad (often repeated) mistakes sometimes - actually usually - end up with the sack.

Let them learn on the job somewhere else, it's about time we had someone in who will grab them by the scruff of the neck, get them playing decent football, and FIND A FORMATION THAT THEY PREFER AND STICK TO IT.

[Phileas Fogg]

5 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

I think you’re going to be here a long time

 

I’ve tried before when we had the managerial vacancy, never had any straight answers. I’ll try again in another six months! 

[Phileas Fogg]

4 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

It has bugger all to do with what I would accept.  If we lost another dozen players in the next week and had to play the youth team - would you accept that or call for heads to roll?

Obviously that’s an exceptional and unrealistic circumstance. I’m just asking you what you’d deem unacceptable which weirdly you’re refusing to answer.

It’s far too simplistic to suggest the only reason we aren’t performing well is due to injuries anyway.

[Sheltons Army]

7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Still no answer! Two simple questions and not one simple answer.

What about if we got relegated, would you accept that? Should Holden stay regardless? 

Putting it more bluntly - I think you’d get something semi interesting and an answer out of , even the renowned forum troll,  by this point 

[Sheltons Army]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I’ve tried before when we had the managerial vacancy, never had any straight answers. I’ll try again in another six months! 

[Phileas Fogg]

2 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Putting it more bluntly - I think you’d get something semi interesting and an answer out of , even the renowned forum troll,  by this point 

Haha, RR definitely adds more value that’s for sure. I don’t mind people holding the opposite view, but if they feel qualified to lecture people (but refuse to back up their opinions with tangibles) then it’s just silly. That’s what @Bat Fastard always does - tries to drown people in waffle but little substance. 

[KegCity]

9 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Campbell is quite an odd guy. Similar to David James in some ways. Wouldn’t want either as manager.

I feel like it’s the right time for us to have an authoritative manager to give us a lift. We’ve had a ‘project’ type since 2016. This doesn’t mean throwing the baby out with the bathwater - we can still focus on bringing on young players. I just feel like we need a manager who commands respect and I don’t feel Holden does.

We needed that in 05’ with GJ and 14’ with SC. Both times we levelled up as a club.

Paul Cook would be shrewd I think. Seems a logical choice. Doesn’t seem the type to tolerate our current structure though.

Completely agree which is why it's so frustrating to hear that he wasn't interested in the club after having talks with Lansdown and Ashton. Think we'll struggle to attract the type of manager we need without a restructure of the club, and if that doesn't happen when Holden eventually leaves I'm not convinced it'll happen until we face relegation.

To me it feels like we're at a similar crossroads to we were in 2014 as you say, wholesale change is needed to get out of the cycle the club is currently in. Paul Cook is certainly in the right mould for what we need, but I wonder if that ship has sailed after he turned us down/lost interest in the summer?

[Phileas Fogg]

Just now, KegCity said:

Completely agree which is why it's so frustrating to hear that he wasn't interested in the club after having talks with Lansdown and Ashton. Think we'll struggle to attract the type of manager we need without a restructure of the club, and if that doesn't happen when Holden eventually leaves I'm not convinced it'll happen until we face relegation.

To me it feels like we're at a similar crossroads to we were in 2014 as you say, wholesale change is needed to get out of the cycle the club is currently in. Paul Cook is certainly in the right mould for what we need, but I wonder if that ship has sailed after he turned us down/lost interest in the summer?

I think it probably has. It feels like we need a big personality to galvanise the fans who has a commanding aura with players. 

Doesn’t necessarily have to be a screamer and shouter.. but someone with charisma and experience. 

It depends on the club’s expectations. If we’re serious about getting to the prem the we’ve got to be prepared to spend on the right manager. If we’re content to tread water then that’s different. The club made it clear expectations haven’t changed with the Holden appointment.

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Obviously that’s an exceptional and unrealistic circumstance. I’m just asking you what you’d deem unacceptable which weirdly you’re refusing to answer.

It’s far too simplistic to suggest the only reason we aren’t performing well is due to injuries anyway.

Maybe so, but no natural left footer for that position is a Sitting Duck for any halfway competent opposition manager- combine that with Wells in a wide area and even in normal times the latter is an area to exploit- put the two together...

...Then throw in the age of Mariappa- aging defenders tend to have issues. Him being right sided- this is a more recent issue but even Wells wide left can unbalance a side with a normal LB.

That aside, it wouldn't surprise me if we have the highest injuries in the division, in terms of games in which players unavailable for us through injury this season-I saw some stats for Liverpool and ours are worse than theirs for sure.

Campbell got stuck in and actually got a bit of success relative to Macclesfield's position. Strange that people are so quick to dismiss that aspect of it...otoh he was rather arrogant on taking the job, read some of his bombastic pronouncements.

[Phileas Fogg]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Maybe so, but no natural left footer for that position is a Sitting Duck for any halfway competent opposition manager- combine that with Wells in a wide area and even in normal times the latter is an area to exploit- put the two together...

...Then throw in the age of Mariappa- aging defenders tend to have issues. Him being right sided- this is a more recent issue but even Wells wide left can unbalance a side with a normal LB.

That aside, it wouldn't surprise me if we have the highest injuries in the division, in terms of games in which players unavailable for us through injury this season-I saw some stats for Liverpool and ours are worse than theirs for sure.

Campbell got stuck in and actually got a bit of success relative to Macclesfield's position. Strange that people are so quick to dismiss that aspect of it...

He might do well, he’s got the pedigree and knowledge. Just strikes me as an odd man - have a look at his Instagram!

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Phileas Fogg said:

He might do well, he’s got the pedigree and knowledge. Just strikes me as an odd man - have a look at his Instagram!

Wouldn't be my choice ie Campbell as I say, might have a look later.

[Sheltons Army]

9 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think it probably has. It feels like we need a big personality to galvanise the fans who has a commanding aura with players. 

Doesn’t necessarily have to be a screamer and shouter.. but someone with charisma and experience. 

It depends on the club’s expectations. If we’re serious about getting to the prem the we’ve got to be prepared to spend on the right manager. If we’re content to tread water then that’s different. The club made it clear expectations haven’t changed with the Holden appointment.

Interesting two words you use there

Ones , I totally agree with

Cotterrill had a presence, and a charisma , for the players at least , and many of our fans (Imwasnt too wild about him on a personality basis but that’s doesn’t matter one iota)

Gary Johnson another - Was always impressed with his straightforward interviews and humour but when I got to hear him speak first hand and met him , he was definitely somebody who had a presence and left me thinking ‘I’d want to play for you’

John Ward didn’t have that aura but was an exceptional gentleman with a good work ethic and a good coach

And if you want to talk auras - Joe Jordan ..... a playing CV to salivate over , first in all the runs they did , a real physical presence with an amazing ‘aura’ - the players totally respected him , and were petrified of him too

[Superjack]

23 hours ago, marmite said:

We haven't had a "fit" for this club since SC. Those names listed wouldn't get my hopes up but neither did SC when he first came here so who knows. SL has taken his eyes off the football for the rugby and it's showing. Where is JL? He is the chairman but he's more obscure than Keith Dawe was. MA has suddenly acquired a football club but has no idea how to make it work. Sack Ashton and bring back SC and give him LJs budget. At least it would be entertaining.

 

Sadly, he wouldn't come. And I don't blame him.

[Phileas Fogg]

8 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Interesting two words you use there

Ones , I totally agree with

Cotterrill had a presence, and a charisma , for the players at least , and many of our fans (Imwasnt too wild about him on a personality basis but that’s doesn’t matter one iota)

Gary Johnson another - Was always impressed with his straightforward interviews and humour but when I got to hear him speak first hand and met him , he was definitely somebody who had a presence and left me thinking ‘I’d want to play for you’

John Ward didn’t have that aura but was an exceptional gentleman with a good work ethic and a good coach

And if you want to talk auras - Joe Jordan ..... a playing CV to salivate over , first in all the runs they did , a real physical presence with an amazing ‘aura’ - the players totally respected him , and were petrified of him too

Agreed. Didn’t watch us under Ward or Jordan.

Gary J probably my favourite manager I’ve watched us under - definite aura and charisma.

Cotterill too and his record speaks for itself.

I think there’s a time and a place for a ‘project’ type manager or head coach, but that’s really not what we need at the moment in my view. We need someone with either top playing pedigree who can hit the ground running and command respect (ie Keane at Sunderland or Gerrard at Rangers) or an experienced head who’s in his managerial prime and knows how to get teams promoted (ie Cotterill, Gary Johnson when they arrived).

The big question is who we can attract with so much apparent involvement from the likes of MA.

[Bat Fastard]

52 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Obviously that’s an exceptional and unrealistic circumstance. I’m just asking you what you’d deem unacceptable which weirdly you’re refusing to answer.

It’s far too simplistic to suggest the only reason we aren’t performing well is due to injuries anyway.

I think that we are in a pretty dire situation for players right now. It would have been seen as unrealistic by some on here if you had said that all our left footed players would be out with long term injuries.  Fate owes us nothing and I will continue to support the club as I have done for well over 50 years. Events beyond our obvious control include injuries, covid and the luck of other teams in avoiding problems and having more luck.  I will be glad when the season is over and we can hopefully get along to AG next season.  I fully expect that to be in the Championship.  Whatever happens I will support the team and the manager of the day. If I don't like it then I will feel honour bound to lump it.