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Some good stuff in here!

When I started the thread I was really trying to gauge the thoughts of supporters about the entire way the football side is set up!

Accademy great, but is there a pathway to anything except the bench occasionally and a loan to Newport.

We have dozens of young players chomping at the bit, however two or three got five minute cameos and Bakinson became a starter for a while. I suppose what I’m saying ‘over a course of a season’ the two national team youth coach’s couldn’t persuade Dean to start more of them. What is the value of the academy and the two assistants. (The obvious comparison being the Brentford model. I believe they dumped their academy) 

Ashton and CEO of the FC, is a subject most are fed up with, so what do we do? Dump the role, bring in a director of football? Something else?

Dean Holden, if he is fired, to what extent do we reorganize the entire club? 

Should directors be on the board of Bristol Sport, Bristol Rugby and Bristol City, what are the conflicts of interest, if any?

 

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Given DH had to take the weekend to decide if he wanted to take the HC role when offered the position, does anyone else think there's a chance he might walk, given the right settlement? 

I do, genuinely feel sorry for the bloke if I'm honest.

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1 minute ago, Ska Junkie said:

Given DH had to take the weekend to decide if he wanted to take the HC role when offered the position, does anyone else think there's a chance he might walk, given the right settlement? 

I do, genuinely feel sorry for the bloke if I'm honest.

So do i. He should never of been put on this position in the first place.

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This Covid influenced season with our huge injury list is not a very fair backdrop to any balanced judgement of our head coach, CEO, owner, youth policy - or our club in general.  Everyone needs to calm down and see how things work out for the rest of the season and if we are actually going to be allowed to attend matches next season that will allow finances to start to be restored.  Our problems at left back gives competitors a weakness to exploit and we currently have no realistic answer.  There seems to be a curse on our left sided players - but these things will pass in time. They always do.  Patience is what we need.  Don't make Dean's job more difficult but give him wholehearted support - he needs it through this incredibly difficult passage of time.

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No @Harry

When you say Restricted', in what respect? If you mean budgetary, all managers/Head Coaches must work within parameters set by a club.

You cite Cook and he definitely has his attributes but I still wonder about Wigan administrators and the terms under which he was let go, ie released from his contract. Simon Jordan once held Steve Bruce to a notice period before relenting and Wigan admin saw Cook as an 'asset' ie would require compensation.

Maybe this was waived on proviso he wouldn't go straight into a new club. Cook I mean.

I also ask again, supposing we give him a 3 year deal, or deal until summer 2024 anyway, he gets carte blanche, signing to his requirements...and we're bottom 3rd, bottom 3 by Christmas.

We're then stuck somewhat.

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1 hour ago, Loosey Boy said:

Can you see this happening @Harry?

If DH were to be relieved of his duties (unlikely at this stage I would think?), I’d imagine that he would leave the club at the same time?

Obvious answer would be who the new manager/head coach would be, say we're in fantasy land and Allardyce ended up here or Dean Smith, they both know Dean well and could want him around. Comes back to the who you know in football.

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18 hours ago, CodeRed said:

So far Mark Ashton has - for all his talk of '20 years in this industry' and his contacts in football and 'planning ahead' and 'consulting throughout the football Industry' has .... after twice undergoing 6 week periods of extensive interviews.... appointed:. 

Steve Lansdown's mate, and Steve Lansdown's mate's mate.

He's a fraud .

I empathise, and would be delighted for mark ashton to walk away immediately, but the fact that hes appointing lansdowns mate tells the story. Hes paid a fortune to do what hes told by the owner.

if lansdown had said get eddie howe at any cost, then there’s a pretty good chance that would have happened.

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4 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Obvious answer would be who the new manager/head coach would be, say we're in fantasy land and Allardyce ended up here or Dean Smith, they both know Dean well and could want him around. Comes back to the who you know in football.

The difficult is that we’ve invested heavily in a new coaching structure.  It’s not just Dean H, it’s Simpson, Downing, Cisse.   If a new man wanted to bring in a new team then that’s significant upheaval and cost.  I can’t see, for instance, Eddie Howe coming in and taking over an existing coaching team.  Director of Football looks a good shout - Joe Jordan still around?

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1 minute ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

The difficult is that we’ve invested heavily in a new coaching structure.  It’s not just Dean H, it’s Simpson, Downing, Cisse.   If a new man wanted to bring in a new team then that’s significant upheaval and cost.  I can’t see, for instance, Eddie Howe coming in and taking over an existing coaching team.  Director of Football looks a good shout - Joe Jordan still around?

Yeah it was more just the question about Holden I was answering tbh

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18 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

This Covid influenced season with our huge injury list is not a very fair backdrop to any balanced judgement of our head coach, CEO, owner, youth policy - or our club in general.  Everyone needs to calm down and see how things work out for the rest of the season and if we are actually going to be allowed to attend matches next season that will allow finances to start to be restored.  Our problems at left back gives competitors a weakness to exploit and we currently have no realistic answer.  There seems to be a curse on our left sided players - but these things will pass in time. They always do.  Patience is what we need.  Don't make Dean's job more difficult but give him wholehearted support - he needs it through this incredibly difficult passage of time.

Patience is not what’s needed.  It’s clear, prompt analysis and decision making that’s needed.  You are allowing Covid to blinker what is happening.  That isn’t to say person x needs to be sacked either.  A decision could be “do nothing”.  But no business worth its salt sits there and says let’s sit back and review in the summer.  They are constantly planning, reviewing, auctioning, repeat, repeat.

3 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

The difficult is that we’ve invested heavily in a new coaching structure.  It’s not just Dean H, it’s Simpson, Downing, Cisse.   If a new man wanted to bring in a new team then that’s significant upheaval and cost.  I can’t see, for instance, Eddie Howe coming in and taking over an existing coaching team.  Director of Football looks a good shout - Joe Jordan still around?

Heavily invested?  How much do you think Simpson, Downing, and Cisse are on?  If you think Downing and Simpson are loads because we nabbed them from the FA, then might be worth remembering those roles were in effect part-time.

I don’t disagree there are costs to both elements of getting rid of and bringing in new coaches, but these aren’t as well paid as one might think.

Luke Williams u23 head-coach role was advertised at £35k per annum.  Yes, per annum.

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3 hours ago, Harry said:

Paul Cook in. 
Ashton out. 
Holden can stay as a coach if he wants. 
Tinnion to Head of Recruitment. Tinnion then also responsible for the whole scouting network, which needs to be extensive ‘on the ground’ scouting, combined with analytical. 

I wrote last summer on one of the new manager threads about Paul Cook’s recruitment history. It’s superb. He had a very good eye for a player, at the right time - early enough to be ‘gettable’ but not too late to be ‘too expensive’. 
Get him in. If he wants to appoint a chief scout whom he’s previously worked with and trusts, then let him. 
 

This is why Cook didn’t want the job last year. He’d be thrown under the bus. He’d have no control over ins and outs. So he won’t be able to be free to be the person that’s been successful. Our set up puts restrictions on these kind of managers. They are asked to be a coach, not a manager. Cook in, with full control, and we’ll see a turnaround. 

Agree with nearly everything you have said.

The only exception is the academy. I have a a different view in so much I don’t think it’s as good as the the hype. And I would go the Brentford route and scrap it. 

Easy to test do we have 3 regular starters in the team - No. So not working.  Give it 2 more games and not even Seymenyo will be starting. 

We bought both Bakinson and Massengo so not true academy anyway.

Vyner is way past the age of what I would call academy and the sort of player we could have signed for very little.

Edwards looks like someone who could come through but it’s early days.

With the impact on the market of covid with transfer values plummeting and also wages dropping. I think we can get free transfers that could hold down a regular first team that are better what we are bringing through the academy.

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38 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

No @Harry

When you say Restricted', in what respect? If you mean budgetary, all managers/Head Coaches must work within parameters set by a club.

You cite Cook and he definitely has his attributes but I still wonder about Wigan administrators and the terms under which he was let go, ie released from his contract. Simon Jordan once held Steve Bruce to a notice period before relenting and Wigan admin saw Cook as an 'asset' ie would require compensation.

Maybe this was waived on proviso he wouldn't go straight into a new club. Cook I mean.

I also ask again, supposing we give him a 3 year deal, or deal until summer 2024 anyway, he gets carte blanche, signing to his requirements...and we're bottom 3rd, bottom 3 by Christmas.

We're then stuck somewhat.

I think you know exactly what I mean when I say “restricted in his recruitment”, if you read my last 5 years of posts on the subject. 
And if you sign another manager, the one inevitability is that at some point you’ll have to sack him. So you’re not stuck, you’re just back to a situation of looking for a new manager again. 
But you’ll never find a good manager prepared to work under Ashton’s current control. 

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41 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

This Covid influenced season with our huge injury list is not a very fair backdrop to any balanced judgement of our head coach, CEO, owner, youth policy - or our club in general.  Everyone needs to calm down and see how things work out for the rest of the season and if we are actually going to be allowed to attend matches next season that will allow finances to start to be restored.  Our problems at left back gives competitors a weakness to exploit and we currently have no realistic answer.  There seems to be a curse on our left sided players - but these things will pass in time. They always do.  Patience is what we need.  Don't make Dean's job more difficult but give him wholehearted support - he needs it through this incredibly difficult passage of time.

Unfortunately we seem to be dropping like stone, can't score and and can't stop teams(very average teams)  from scoring and dominating us. I'm very concerned and not confident we won't avoid being dragged into the relegation scrap. We are very easy to beat and I'm not convinced we can beat anybody currently, so 'calming down' is completely the wrong reaction. We are in a downward spiral that looks out of control.

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8 minutes ago, Better Red said:

Agree with nearly everything you have said.

The only exception is the academy. I have a a different view in so much I don’t think it’s as good as the the hype. And I would go the Brentford route and scrap it. 

Easy to test do we have 3 regular starters in the team - No. So not working.  Give it 2 more games and not even Seymenyo will be starting. 

We bought both Bakinson and Massengo so not true academy anyway.

Vyner is way past the age of what I would call academy and the sort of player we could have signed for very little.

Edwards looks like someone who could come through but it’s early days.

With the impact on the market of covid with transfer values plummeting and also wages dropping. I think we can get free transfers that could hold down a regular first team that are better what we are bringing through the academy.

Theoretically yes, you could go the few transfer route rather than academy. 
Brentford only scrapped theirs due to their location. They realised they couldn’t attract the best local youngsters because they all went to Chelsea etc. We don’t have that problem. We should be in position to get the very best of kids in a 50 mile radius with little or no competition.  

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1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said:

Given DH had to take the weekend to decide if he wanted to take the HC role when offered the position, does anyone else think there's a chance he might walk, given the right settlement? 

I do, genuinely feel sorry for the bloke if I'm honest.

Yes maybe. He's not got the ego or arrogance of LJ to keep him from walking despite horrendous form.

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We've got this structure in place so say to reduce the impact of the head coach leaving. But by doing so we have inadvertently moved the problem upwards to Ashton's role. He wont be leaving anytime soon because the whole structure of the club and our recruitment depends on him, cushty or what

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52 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Unfortunately we seem to be dropping like stone, can't score and and can't stop teams(very average teams)  from scoring and dominating us. I'm very concerned and not confident we won't avoid being dragged into the relegation scrap. We are very easy to beat and I'm not convinced we can beat anybody currently, so 'calming down' is completely the wrong reaction. We are in a downward spiral that looks out of control.

It is certainly very frustrating for us as fans but must also be very hard for the reduced squad, who have to play more games without a rest - often carrying niggling injuries and abnormal fatigue.  Their training is still somewhat restricted and we are missing at least a dozen players, who would expect to be first choice starters or close.  I highlighted left back because all are injured and all those who could be reasonably pressed into emergency service are injured.  This is a crisis and the pressure will not let up.  Other clubs may suffer similarly throughout this season, but our problems are here and now and unlikely to go anytime soon.  Everything is being tested to destruction - and much of this pressure is due to issues surrounding the pandemic.  We are all on the same time and the staff must be really hoping for support from the fans rather than even more pressure.  If the spiral is out of control, it is because we did not have a squad with six or seven left backs - and if we had that luxury, the fans would have been up in arms in criticism.  Dean and Mark are is a no win situation right now.  And no wins are what we are having to put up with.

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

I think you know exactly what I mean when I say “restricted in his recruitment”, if you read my last 5 years of posts on the subject. 
And if you sign another manager, the one inevitability is that at some point you’ll have to sack him. So you’re not stuck, you’re just back to a situation of looking for a new manager again. 
But you’ll never find a good manager prepared to work under Ashton’s current control. 

Okay, that makes sense. Certainly the case that budgetary limits are reasonable and to be expected however.

Here's a hypothetical scenario. We sign Cook, he signs lots of high energy players or players for a specific style. It goes South as no guarantees in football, then new manager has more of a tiki taka mindset or I don't know, more deep lying defence playing counter attacking football.

If we recruit players, managers and have an Academy setup working to a specific blueprint, football ethos- perhaps even formation, the equation becomes more positive. Do we have that though?

Ie

"Our club philosophy will be 4-3-3

"We will seek to pass and move, with good shape and high energy out of possession.

"Not possession for the sake of possession but we will aim for positivity and security/stability through this shape. Nonetheless, possession will be an important factor in the tactics/gameplan.

"We will recruit or seek to recruit players suitable for such a style and Managers/Head Coaches who are comfortable with, used to, such a style.

"Inbound Players ideally will be under 30."

That's just a quick hypothetical starting point on the last bit, definitely more parameters needed but 30 and upwards for outfield players, exception not rule. Short term deals between windows more understandable if injuries etc.

Playing side aside. Decent managers working in our setup? I'm unsure. UK, perhaps not, might foreign managers be more amenable. Director of Football, input into Recruitment, Parameters for Recruitment etc more common for longer elsewhere.

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Patience is not what’s needed.  It’s clear, prompt analysis and decision making that’s needed.  You are allowing Covid to blinker what is happening.  That isn’t to say person x needs to be sacked either.  A decision could be “do nothing”.  But no business worth its salt sits there and says let’s sit back and review in the summer.  They are constantly planning, reviewing, auctioning, repeat, repeat.

Heavily invested?  How much do you think Simpson, Downing, and Cisse are on?  If you think Downing and Simpson are loads because we nabbed them from the FA, then might be worth remembering those roles were in effect part-time.

I don’t disagree there are costs to both elements of getting rid of and bringing in new coaches, but these aren’t as well paid as one might think.

Luke Williams u23 head-coach role was advertised at £35k per annum.  Yes, per annum.

It rather reminds me of a chess match where the king is surrounded and only able to make very limited moves - none of which hold out the promise of salvation.  All the thinking and reviewing in the world will not fix the injury list.  We can and should try to see if there are ways to improve this in future, but nothing will help us in the next few games unless we meet teams that are similarly stricken.  It is not like a horse race where there is a degree of science behind the handicapping. We are currently unfairly handicapped against most of our competitors.  This may average itself out over time, but right now it is a massive cause for concern.  All we can do is to be as supportive as possible because that will help more than getting on the backs of the players and staff.

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5 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

it is because we did not have a squad with six or seven left backs -

We did have part of a transfer window. Our training is no more restricted than anyone else's. We do have a bad injury situation, although many other teams have bad injury situations, maybe not as bad as ours though. I still don't see us beating anyone as we currently are and so many times when we have won have been victories by backs to the wall methods, even at the start of the season. We look weak, defend too deep, relying on last ditch blocks particularly by Kalas or terrific saves by DB on a regular basis. I hate to think what position we'd have been in if DB hadn't been in such great form.

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20 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

It is certainly very frustrating for us as fans but must also be very hard for the reduced squad, who have to play more games without a rest - often carrying niggling injuries and abnormal fatigue.  Their training is still somewhat restricted and we are missing at least a dozen players, who would expect to be first choice starters or close.  I highlighted left back because all are injured and all those who could be reasonably pressed into emergency service are injured.  This is a crisis and the pressure will not let up.  Other clubs may suffer similarly throughout this season, but our problems are here and now and unlikely to go anytime soon.  Everything is being tested to destruction - and much of this pressure is due to issues surrounding the pandemic.  We are all on the same time and the staff must be really hoping for support from the fans rather than even more pressure.  If the spiral is out of control, it is because we did not have a squad with six or seven left backs - and if we had that luxury, the fans would have been up in arms in criticism.  Dean and Mark are is a no win situation right now.  And no wins are what we are having to put up with.

Every other club are dealing with fatigue and a heavy congested season. 
Can you name these 12 first teamers or close to that are injured at the moment please? 
Can you explain why we’ve looked like a rabbit in headlights every game? The subs have been shocking. If Martin was fit yesterday we would of no doubt ended up with 4 strikers again yesterday. 
Or even better, how many games this season you seen that we’ve looked like we’ve deserved to win convincingly over 90 minutes? 

One final question, where did you buy these blinkers / rose tinted glasses from? 

Edited by RedorDead BCFC
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