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Which players are good enough for a top six team?


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44 minutes ago, SuperRed said:

Does anyone else feel Kalas is massively overrated? In my view he is not worth the £8 million he cost and I can see why none of the other clubs he was on loan at signed him. He was made to look much better than he is by Webster. He’s not great on the ball, he’s not dominant in the air, he’s not that quick, and the amount of last ditch tackles / slides he makes suggests he is often caught out of position. 

Did Webster make him look better, or do the players around him now/team performances drag him down? Chocolate midfield in front of him that offer no protection, we have no fit LB, Hunt is hit and miss for me at RB.

I agree I havent seen enough to warrant the £8m as he's not consistent enough, but the team around him isn't helping. I don't think he'd go much higher than this level, but on his day he's one of the better defenders we've had.

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6 minutes ago, Trueredsupporter said:

Bentley didnt get in Brentfords team. He wouldnt get in Norwichs. Foster at Watford? mmm no. Bournemouth? No again. that leaves two? dunno if he would get their teams either.

You mean except the 2 consecutive seasons where he played 45 Championship games and the third season where he played 33?

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20 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

You mean except the 2 consecutive seasons where he played 45 Championship games and the third season where he played 33?

Bentley had been dropped from the team when City bought him. His replacement Raya Martin is in their team now. As somebody who suggested City buy Bentley as it could advance the football Lee Johnson was playing (temporarily) I have no doubt Raya is better with a ball at his feet. His distribution is superb. Bentleys distribution is very good but not that good. In a team where the Keeper will make 40+ passes a game that ability is essential.

 

Edited by Cowshed
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The best 180 players (30 per squad) don't all play for the top 6.

Taken as an overall comparison our squad is better than most teams above us including Swansea, Stoke, Middlesbrough, Reading, Blackburn and even Watfords isn't great with their aging strikeforce.

Of the teams below us, Forest have a good squad but cant say many others have better than us.

As a sum of our part we are underperforming big time but to throw a few names out Bentley, Kalas, Mawson, Hunt, Dasilva, Baker, Nagy, Williams, Paterson, Palmer, Odowda, Weimann, Martin, Diedhiou, Wells, Lansbury, these are rock solid top half Championship performers at we should be doing better.

On paper our defence is fantastic.

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There's two aspects to this IMO.

Which players individually...and then an ability to equal, let alone exceed the sum of the parts.

Bentley the obvious stand out- I do consider that e.g. Nagy and Massengo would look better at Brentford in their midfield 3 than with us but this might be a minority view. The former, is there a huge difference between him and say Jensen- the latter very much has time on his side. Mawson though technically not ours, surely would attract interest.

We'll have to see over a consistent run what our midfield can do- Lansbury, Williams have played just once for us- let's wait and see how they knit together and this is where the sum of parts bit comes in- I think we are performance wise less than the sum of our parts, overall- certainly of late. Could a fit and in form DaSilva get consideration for top 6? Wells in the middle not wide- maybe but certainly don't see the best of him IMO.

1 hour ago, SuperRed said:

Does anyone else feel Kalas is massively overrated? In my view he is not worth the £8 million he cost and I can see why none of the other clubs he was on loan at signed him. He was made to look much better than he is by Webster. He’s not great on the ball, he’s not dominant in the air, he’s not that quick, and the amount of last ditch tackles / slides he makes suggests he is often caught out of position. 

I'd suggest he has more technical ability than he's shown here- he periodically showed at Fulham and he periodically will show it at International level. I don't agree, play him in a better footballing side and his level might rise- Leeds and Swansea were mooted to be interested in him the summer we signed him. Last ditch tackles/slides could mean caught out of position but could also mean a side that is badly structured, questionable midfield protection etc. Maybe a bit of both.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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11 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Bentley had been dropped from the team when City bought him. His replacement Raya Martin is in their team now. As somebody who suggested City buy Bentley as it could advance the football Lee Johnson was playing (temporarily) I have no doubt Raya is better with a ball at his feet. His distribution is superb. Bentleys distribution is very good but not that good. In a team where the Keeper will make 40+ passes a game that ability is essential.

 

Bentley was injured, not dropped.

"Aside from cup appearances and two league starts, Daniels was again backup to Daniel Bentley for the majority of the 2018–19 season, until a season-ending shoulder injury suffered by Bentley in March 2019 allowed Daniels a run in the team in league matches and he finished the season with 19 appearances in all competitions"

https://www.football.london/brentford-fc/brentford-injury-update-daniel-bentley-15956181

Edited by MarcusX
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I think we've got a squad with plenty of talented individuals, many of whom would look better under a better coach/manager with better players around them. Kalas on his day is a warrior, the same applies with Fam. Bentley's a good shot-stopper at this level, Williams should be a good signing for us, and Nagy is the one who I think could play higher. Mawson's class but he's not our player. 

This squad is underachieving, IMO. Wells is a prime example of that - scored goals for fun when played centrally at QPR, comes here, stuck largely out wide and is a shadow of the player he was elsewhere. A fully-fit Lansbury might be another example, judging on Holden playing him in DM when he's better further forward. 

Edited by tin
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3 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Bentley was injured, not dropped.

"Aside from cup appearances and two league starts, Daniels was again backup to Daniel Bentley for the majority of the 2018–19 season, until a season-ending shoulder injury suffered by Bentley in March 2019 allowed Daniels a run in the team in league matches and he finished the season with 19 appearances in all competitions"

https://www.football.london/brentford-fc/brentford-injury-update-daniel-bentley-15956181

He was in and out. He had after a series of errors had also been dropped. With Raya Martin coming he would have been second maybe third choice. Its a why I posted about Bentley being an improvement here with his feet v other options that could be available. Tim Krul wasnt playing either at the same point.

Modern keeping means two thirds of the game is played with the feet, in a team like Brentford its more, Raya Martin has skills that exceed Bentleys in that area and hasn't made the mistakes in other parts of his game Bentley did.

Bristol City did very well in signing Bentley but looking at what Brentford had ready to replace him its clear why he was sold. 

 

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In the Premier League every player in a top 6 team must be an excellent player to hold down a regular place. That doesn’t apply in the lower leagues. A top 6 team in the Championship could easily have 5 or 6 excellent players and the rest just good team players. The managers who achieved promotion since I started watching football, starting with Fred Ford all achieved it with a mix of good and average players. The key was getting the correct mix of skills and having a balanced team. Plus, of course, having a good manager / coach. 
 

As has been said by eg @MATT BCFC and others some of the current City players would be better in a better team and would be good enough for a top 6 Championship team, if we had a good coach and the team was balanced. How many would be good enough to play in the Premier League is another matter that’s unlikely to worry us in the near future 

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8 minutes ago, SBB said:

I’m not too interested in which individuals could play in better teams. I’m convinced our squad is easily good enough for top 6.... unfortunately our coaching set-up isn’t. 

Anyone who saw how we played at the beginning of the season would have to agree with this.    Since then every half decent opposing manager has identified our weaknesses (not that hard to do). 

 

 Our coaching staff have no Plan B and the players forgot what Plan A was anyway.

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33 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Fams hero worshipped at norwich ok.

When they go up, you really think they will be excited about signing fam on a free transfer?

If the boot was on the other foot,i very much doubt that we would be excited, signing someone who scores 1 in 3 at this level.

 

Put it this way - I’m not excited about signing him on a free transfer with big wages in the summer

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3 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

Oh come on!

Would he be regularly picked for his country - ok, maybe not the strongest country in Europe, but a reasonably strong side - if he wasn’t a very good player?  He has the ability, it just needs someone to bring the best out of him and him to deliver consistently.  I stand by my call though: he could play in the Prem one day.

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Hardly anybody would’ve said Korey Smith this time last season. Many didn’t rate Brownhill which I always thought was madness. 

I think a few of our players could hold their own in the division above, so could get into certain top 6 champ clubs providing they fit the style of play. 

Bentley & Dasilva are out on their own as players we own who I think would be able to make the step up. 

Kalas possibly could do, he has played a couple at the level above & been promoted twice. 

I’m intrigued to see where Diedhiou ends up, under the right manager in the right system he could flourish. If he ends up at Boro in the summer I think he’ll do very well under Warnock. 

Not sure you get the levels of consistency out of the rest to play at the level above or even maintain a play off push. 

Edited by Carey 6
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7 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Would he be regularly picked for his country - ok, maybe not the strongest country in Europe, but a reasonably strong side - if he wasn’t a very good player?  He has the ability, it just needs someone to bring the best out of him and him to deliver consistently.  I stand by my call though: he could play in the Prem one day.

O’Dowda in the prem is a bit of a stretch, especially when he’s not even proved himself to be one of the better players in mid-table champ team. 

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At the risk of inviting a shed load of criticisms. I think that our squad is massively overrated (either that or it is massively underperforming). We don’t agree to much on this forum but one of the most common views expressed is ‘our squad is extremely talented and better than other squads in our league but....’

I think it is very common for other club forums to have an inflated view of their own club capabilities. A similar common quote on this forum is ‘One for the future’ where a prospect isn’t ready/hasn’t made it into the first team. Yet that future never comes as the prospect disappears on loan, never to fulfil that promise.

I actually think that most professional players have the technical ability to have a career at a higher level than the one that they achieve. The missing ingredient is having the confidence to succeed and having a team around you that provide an environment where you can succeed. This is the role of the manager/coach.

The one exception to this is the rare player who is a ‘self starter’ and has the grit and determination to succeed , dragging other players up to his level. We have had a few of them over time. Can you imagine the changing room scenes after the Cardiff match * (*insert one of many matches this season), if Gerry Gow had been on the field?

Sure, I would be pleased with Bentley  in goal, and would settle for Kalas and Mawson in front of him. I would settle for (a motivated) Diedhiou, but on the bench. Other than that I would settle for 8 x Gerry Gow in the other positions for a top six finish. OK we might not make that top six place, but at least we will have shown some passion in trying to get there!

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56 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Fams done a good job for us, but is he anywhere in pukkis leauge?

If we are going to use top 6 players as yardsticks in this division, we wont measure up.

 

Diedhiou at Norwich is definitely a bit of a stretch- question whether he fits their style of play as well.

Pukki is clearly a superior player, but with signings you never know- when Norwich signed him on a free, would there have been a lot of hype? Doubtful.

Would people on here have deemed him "a Top 6 player"- I very much doubt it. Certainly wouldn't if we transport back to summer 2018, have been a player that would have enthused many on here IMO.

@Harry You have quite strong views on recruitment- had we signed e.g. Pukki on a free, in Summer 2018 would you have been especially enthused- indeed suppose a secondary q might be, would we have setup in a way to get the best etc?

Still have a feeling the reaction on here (not saying you, talking more widely) might have been a bit lukewarm, middling.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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4 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

O’Dowda certainly.  For all his regular ritual slaughter on OTIB, he is a very gifted player who could easily play at a higher level.  

If he's fit and more importantly confident, he's good enough.

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Bentley

Kalas

Mawson

Nagy

Pato

Diedhiou

 

Obviously it’s depending on players around them. Pato is very good but will need a system that works for him. Nagy would be a class player with the right players alongside him.

Edited by Fammyfan
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It’s a very simplistic way of looking at things.  If you put Mawson, Nagy, Dasilva, Kalas, Bentley,  Semenyo and a few others in a top 6 outfit with a good manager and structure, they wouldn’t look out of place at all.

Its very naive to see how we are playing now and just conclude all the players aren’t good enough for a top six side 

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1 minute ago, Fammyfan said:

Bentley

Kalas

Mawson

Nagy

Pato

Diedhiou

Top 4 yes. Pato no, to lazy. Diedhiou could but there's to much onus on him doing it by himself. He needs wingers and a partner to drag defenders about and creat space plus set up chances. Also midfielders to to the same.

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