Sunderland fans loving POMO’s and USP’s

[Rob k]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

That was as I understood it too.  Think some fans were telling the fan to not be a knob.

It’s Absolutely not true - i was right next to it, probably the guy behind the bloke who was rowing. it was completely unwarranted from SC, he came back out to row and was pretty much told to do one. It was a long time ago now so can’t remember the exact exchange word for word but it was very unnecessary from a manager of a football club 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Rob k

[Tin Soldier]

2 hours ago, JBFC II said:

He lasted so long because we continued to improve under his management.

He took a relegation threatened side, that may well have gone down that season under Cotts, to a side on the cusp of the play offs. Nothing to do with his phrases or Brentisms

As a manager you NEVER throw your team under the bus (one of the 1st rules you learn), which Johnson did numerous times. Glad to see the back of him.

[Sheltons Army]

1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

To be fair, nobody in our history had had the spending power Cotts had with us. 
 

We could use the spending argument with Cotts and O’Driscoll as well. Footballs changed massively over the last 5 years, with transfer fees rising massively. That increase coincided with LJs reign, it’s not really a stick to beat him with

Really ?

Please tell all....

I thought it was a team put together with what he had , and some very astute signings that he  brought in by selling Baldock.....

Where was this unrivalled spending power ??

 

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

11 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

He was potentially taking us straight back down in Jan 2016-

Yes, potentially he was. Same as Lee was 12 months on in Jan 2017.

10 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We were in terrible form and the fans were not happy- 

Yes, and it was the same the following season, 2016/17, when we set a club record for consecutive league defeats (during which, Steve extended Lee's contract). 

Only we got to see how things go in 2016/17 when an owner stands shoulder to shoulder with his man and we didn't the season before (not that I am saying Cotts didn't deserve the sack for things we are not privy to. But I think he'd have kept us up with Lee Tomlin and the much improved squad in the second half of that season).

[Tin Soldier]

On the Mackams forum, I liked this one the best - 

“Would rather lick up someone’s cold spew than listen to the shite coming from his mouth. Thinks he knows it all but knows **** all.”

 

[Sheltons Army]

4 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

Yes, potentially he was. Same as Lee was 12 months on in Jan 2017.

Yes, and it was the same the following season, 2016/17, when we set a club record for consecutive league defeats (during which, Steve extended Lee's contract). 

Only we got to see how things go in 2016/17 when an owner stands shoulder to shoulder with his man and we didn't the season before (not that I am saying Cotts didn't deserve the sack for things we are not privy to. But I think he'd have kept us up with Lee Tomlin and the much improved squad in the second half of that season).

A lot of sense and good points in three paragraphs

Boooooooooooooom

[JBFC II]

12 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Really ?

Please tell all....

I thought it was a team put together with what he had , and some very astute signings that he  brought in by selling Baldock.....

Where was this unrivalled spending power ??

 

 

He had the finances to make a star studded league one side. 
 

Baldock was sold very close to deadline day iirc, we’d already spent a fair whack on some very good players before he left, so you can’t really use that as an excuse. If you were, you should then use that as the excuse for Johnson’s spending as well surely?

Look at what O’Driscoll had to work with, and then what Cotts had to work with. Was that fair?

[Cowshed]

3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Define achievements? He saved us from relegation and turned us into a solid Championship side, challenging in and around the play offs.

He got us our best cup run in 30 years, beating the biggest club in the country and going toe to toe with the best team in the world at the time over 2 legs. We played some of the best football I've ever seen from City, especially when you consider the level we were at (Cotts team was fantastic, but it was L1 football)

The end was shit, and it was probably the right time for him to go, but it's nonsense to say he didn't achieve anything here.

For months. Its an example how ill planned Mr Johnson football was. The transfer window saw him recruit players alongside others within his squad who could not progress that football. Not only did he not progress the high tempo game, he in months put it onto reverse. Bristol City went from a high possession, short passing, high tempo team to a low scoring , low possession side that played counter attacking football at home.

His biggest failing is frequently over looked. In 2016 he stated that his intent was to create a footballing identity that ran through the club. Mr Johnson frequently mentioned, this identity, the painstaking recruitment process that ensured the dna of the players fitted the project. Within a season of his tenure it was clear that he was talking bollocks. Despite years at the club and record resources he never put in place this identity. The team had no identity. The pathway from academy to XI was faltering. The developmental philosophy was unclear to non existent i.e. the academy and U teams were playing different formations and systems to the XI ,and it would have been impossible for them to develop players for an XI that went from long ball to short ball to high press to medium block to low block x seven formations over astonishingly short timescales. This was not storming and norming it was a man out of his depth.

To not put in the keystone behaviours of this fabled playing identity over a period of four years is a dismal achievement. He there damaged the potential of the FC. Nice bloke, don't think he is a bad man but for a supposedly modern coach and  the FC the above is a disgrace.  

Edited February 10, 2021 by Cowshed

[Sheltons Army]

4 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

He had the finances to make a star studded league one side. 
 

Baldock was sold very close to deadline day iirc, we’d already spent a fair whack on some very good players before he left, so you can’t really use that as an excuse. If you were, you should then use that as the excuse for Johnson’s spending as well surely?

Look at what O’Driscoll had to work with, and then what Cotts had to work with. Was that fair?

You obviously have looked at all the figures ??

If so - Id be interested in a bit more expansion & evidence Of his luxury spending 

 Baldock ...an ‘excuse’ ....... 

An ‘excuse’ for what ?

And - Do you not think they knew Baldock would move in that window ?

 

He built a team - Johnson collected the toy collection from Hamleys and Couldnt form a side in 4 1/2 years , save for 3 months when the side picked itself (And remarkably none pulled a hamstring)

Edited February 10, 2021 by Sheltons Army

[Red-Robbo]

Anyone else find these intense, circular battles over previous managers incredibly tedious.

 

 

[cityloyal473]

3 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Define achievements? He saved us from relegation and turned us into a solid Championship side, challenging in and around the play offs.

He got us our best cup run in 30 years, beating the biggest club in the country and going toe to toe with the best team in the world at the time over 2 legs. We played some of the best football I've ever seen from City, especially when you consider the level we were at (Cotts team was fantastic, but it was L1 football)

The end was shit, and it was probably the right time for him to go, but it's nonsense to say he didn't achieve anything here.

Defining achievements really is key here.  In the bigger context of things, these are not 'achievements' in my opinion.

What you've just described there is a couple of good nights out, not achievements.  There's plenty of non-Premier League clubs that have beaten Manu Utd - do you think they class them as achievements or special, one-off nights?

Challenging in and around the play-offs is not an achievement; getting to the play-offs and winning them is an achievement. 

Classing these as achievements is sadly reflective of where we as a fanbase are that people see them as that.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by cityloyal473

[Phileas Fogg]

23 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

He had the finances to make a star studded league one side. 
 

Baldock was sold very close to deadline day iirc, we’d already spent a fair whack on some very good players before he left, so you can’t really use that as an excuse. If you were, you should then use that as the excuse for Johnson’s spending as well surely?

Look at what O’Driscoll had to work with, and then what Cotts had to work with. Was that fair?

From what I remember - it was accepted that Baldock was going. Didn’t Cotterill only really spend a fee on Agard?

As for SO’D, at that time it was clear we had to cut the cloth. He inherited an expensive and ineffective squad with few assets to recoup money from. He did a LOT of crucial restructuring and made difficult decisions. He also bought in a number of players who we got extraordinary value for money from. He wasn’t popular here but deserves lots of credit imo.

He rubbed the board up the wrong way too because he said it as he saw it. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Phileas Fogg

[Numero Uno]

18 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

For months. Its an example how ill planned Mr Johnson football was. The transfer window saw him recruit players alongside others within his squad who could not progress that football. Not only did he not progress the high tempo game, he in months put it onto reverse. Bristol City went from a high possession, short passing, high tempo team to a low scoring , low possession side that played counter attacking football at home.

His biggest failing is frequently over looked. In 2016 he stated that his intent was to create a footballing identity that ran through the club. Mr Johnson frequently mentioned, this identity, the painstaking recruitment process that ensured the dna of the players fitted the project. Within a season of his tenure it was clear that he was talking bollocks. Despite years at the club and record resources he never put in place this identity. The team had no identity. The pathway from academy to XI was faltering. The developmental philosophy was unclear to non existent i.e. the academy and U teams were playing different formations and systems to the XI ,and it would have been impossible for them to develop players for an XI that went from long ball to short ball to high press to medium block to low block x seven formations over astonishingly short timescales. This was not storming and norming it was a man out of his depth.

To not put in the keystone behaviours of this fabled playing identity over a period of four years is a dismal achievement. He there damaged the potential of the FC. Nice bloke, don't think he is a bad man but for a supposedly modern coach and  the FC the above is a disgrace.  

It’s clear from your posts that you have an interest or involvement in coaching. At what age group would you start to play in a club identity (genuine not trick question)?

Personally I would say you teach lads to play all styles up to at least U14/15 then start to play club philosophy on the basis you get more rounded footballers plus you are only one sacking away from a total shift potentially.

[JBFC II]

14 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

You obviously have looked at all the figures ??

If so - Id be interested in a bit more expansion & evidence Of his luxury spending 

 Baldock ...an ‘excuse’ ....... 

An ‘excuse’ for what ?

And - Do you not think they knew Baldock would move in that window ?

 

He built a team - Johnson collected the toy collection from Hamleys and Couldnt form a side in 4 1/2 years , save for 3 months when the side picked itself (And remarkably none pulled a hamstring)

You don’t need to look at the figures. Cotterill brought in Wilbraham, Agard, Moore, Martin Paterson, Wade Elliott, Little, Freeman, Smith, Tavernier, Matt Smith, Saville and Todd Kane. They’re all very good players at league one level. It’s hardly as tho Cotts was given no budget then was it?

Johnson built a team in 2017, but they were torn apart because we had to sell to make ends meet. Johnson also built a squad with depth, something we didn’t have in the first half of that 15/16 season

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

To be fair, nobody in our history had had the spending power Cotts had with us. 
 

We could use the spending argument with Cotts and O’Driscoll as well. Footballs changed massively over the last 5 years, with transfer fees rising massively. That increase coincided with LJs reign, it’s not really a stick to beat him with

16 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Really ?

Please tell all....

I thought it was a team put together with what he had , and some very astute signings that he  brought in by selling Baldock.....

Where was this unrivalled spending power ??

 

 

Exactly.  @JBFC II - worth going back over the accounts, and look what Cotts achieved through “quality, not quantity” strategy.  He had a very similar budget to SOD.  He also signed players with longevity / improvement, that his successor benefitted from.  In fairness Cotts benefitted from SOD (Fielding, Pack, Flint, Williams) too.

Cotts spending power was peanuts compared to Johnson.

I don’t include the 14/15 season in my xls, but for info.

• Wages (inc NI, Pensions) £9.7m (SOD £9.6m)
• Amortisation £1.5m (SOD £1.1m)
• Other £5.5m (SOD £2.9m)
• Transfer Profit £1.4m (SOD £1.1m)

So, “To be fair, nobody in our history had had the spending power Cotts had with us” is factually incorrect.

Basically Cotts recruited efficiently.

Free transfers:

Little, Elliott, Ayling (£200k compo), Wilbraham

Swaps:

Smith for L.Kelly (plus £500k to Oldham)

Bought:

Agard (£800k), Freeman (£250k)

Sold: 

Baldock (£2m)

21 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

He had the finances to make a star studded league one side. 
 

Baldock was sold very close to deadline day iirc, we’d already spent a fair whack on some very good players before he left, so you can’t really use that as an excuse. If you were, you should then use that as the excuse for Johnson’s spending as well surely?

Look at what O’Driscoll had to work with, and then what Cotts had to work with. Was that fair?

Look at the numbers I’ve posted above!  As for Agard v Baldock.  Don’t you think that was canny, to get your target in ahead of selling the player going out.  Baldock was rumoured to be leaving most of the summer.

Nor do you buy the League One title.

Sheffield Utd on a bigger budget than us didn’t romp the league.

Swindon Town didn’t publish detailed accounts

Preston / MKD had about 80% of Cotts budget

Yeah, we were a big fish....but we executed perfectly.  Plus JPT revenues, FA Cup 4th round, revenues, whilst on reduced capacity, impacting revenues.  Cotts actually increased revenues by 55% over previous season, because he filled the ground every week.

I think it would almost be applicable to end this with “FACT”, but I won’t.

 

[italian dave]

28 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Anyone else find these intense, circular battles over previous managers incredibly tedious.

 

 

I guess it takes our collective mind off the current one

[Sheltons Army]

2 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

You don’t need to look at the figures. Cotterill brought in Wilbraham, Agard, Moore, Martin Paterson, Wade Elliott, Little, Freeman, Smith, Tavernier, Matt Smith, Saville and Todd Kane. They’re all very good players at league one level. It’s hardly as tho Cotts was given no budget then was it?

Johnson built a team in 2017, but they were torn apart because we had to sell to make ends meet. Johnson also built a squad with depth, something we didn’t have in the first half of that 15/16 season

I had a look myself - Gives a list of incomings and outgoings at least

 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bristol-city/transfers/verein/698/plus/1?saison_id=2014&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

It also includes the departures of players and loanees summer 14releasing funds

Baldock £2.25m

Little was a free transfer

Wilbraham a free transfer

Agard to replace Baldock £800k ish

and most of the rest you’ve highlighted Loans

Ayling , Smith Freeman & Co - Signed from L1 - Do you think they were on blockbusting wages do you ?

(Johnson trebled our wage bill btw) 
 

You said he benefited from unparalleled spending power - again I ask where is there the slightest evidence of this 

 

[Sheltons Army]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Exactly.  @JBFC II - worth going back over the accounts, and look what Cotts achieved through “quality, not quantity” strategy.  He had a very similar budget to SOD.  He also signed players with longevity / improvement, that his successor benefitted from.  In fairness Cotts benefitted from SOD (Fielding, Pack, Flint, Williams) too.

Cotts spending power was peanuts compared to Johnson.

I don’t include the 14/15 season in my xls, but for info.

• Wages (inc NI, Pensions) £9.7m (SOD £9.6m)
• Amortisation £1.5m (SOD £1.1m)
• Other £5.5m (SOD £2.9m)
• Transfer Profit £1.4m (SOD £1.1m)

So, “To be fair, nobody in our history had had the spending power Cotts had with us” is factually incorrect.

Basically Cotts recruited efficiently.

Free transfers:

Little, Elliott, Ayling (£200k compo), Wilbraham

Swaps:

Smith for L.Kelly (plus £500k to Oldham)

Bought:

Agard (£800k), Freeman (£250k)

Sold: 

Baldock (£2m)

Look at the numbers I’ve posted above!  As for Agard v Baldock.  Don’t you think that was canny, to get your target in ahead of selling the player going out.  Baldock was rumoured to be leaving most of the summer.

Nor do you buy the League One title.

Sheffield Utd on a bigger budget than us didn’t romp the league.

Swindon Town didn’t publish detailed accounts

Preston / MKD had about 80% of Cotts budget

Yeah, we were a big fish....but we executed perfectly.  Plus JPT revenues, FA Cup 4th round, revenues, whilst on reduced capacity, impacting revenues.  Cotts actually increased revenues by 55% over previous season, because he filled the ground every week.

I think it would almost be applicable to end this with “FACT”, but I won’t.

 

I Should have asked you in the first place Dave ! 

Knew you’d have a good records, and decent analysis of the picture

Nice one 

And a great post

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

I had a look myself - Gives a list of incomings and outgoings at least

 

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bristol-city/transfers/verein/698/plus/1?saison_id=2014&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

It also includes the departures of players and loanees summer 14releasing funds

Baldock £2.25m

Little was a free transfer

Wilbraham a free transfer

Agard to replace Baldock £800k ish

and most of the rest you’ve highlighted Loans

Ayling , Smith Freeman & Co - Signed from L1 - Do you think they were on blockbusting wages do you ?

(Johnson trebled our wage bill btw) 
 

You said he benefited from unparalleled spending power - again I ask where is there the slightest evidence of this 

 

It’s all in detail in my post above Shelts, backed up from the clubs annual accounts.

[MarcusX]

16 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

Defining achievements really is key here.  In the bigger context of things, these are not 'achievements' in my opinion.

What you've just described there is a couple of good nights out, not achievements.  There's plenty of non-Premier League clubs that have beaten Manu Utd - do you think they class them as achievements or special, one-off nights?

Challenging in and around the play-offs is not an achievement; getting to the play-offs and winning them is an achievement. 

Classing these as achievements is sadly reflective of where we as a fanbase are that people see them as that.

 

 

Achievements deserve context and perspective. Our achievements (and expectations) are different to other clubs.

Norwich for example would be expecting promotion this season. If they get it, is it an achivement or is it the expectation being met? If Wycombe were in amongst the playoffs all season but finished 8th, then went on to sustain their Championship status for 3-4 years I'd say that's an achievement.

Likewise, if Man City earn a Champions League spot but dont win the league, that wouldn't be seen as an achievement as such - but it would if West Ham or Everton made it.

At the point LJ came in we were on our way back to League 1. We are a mid-table Championship side - and that's because of the work LJ did here. We have no given right to expect a play off place and promotion.

We've finished higher than Lee's 8th place once in my lifetime. Not saying we shouldn't strive for better, but Bristol City fans need to apply some perspective and realise our relative place in the football league and punching above that consistently IS/WAS an achievement. He just didn't have enough to get us over the line.

[JBFC II]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Exactly.  @JBFC II - worth going back over the accounts, and look what Cotts achieved through “quality, not quantity” strategy.  He had a very similar budget to SOD.  He also signed players with longevity / improvement, that his successor benefitted from.  In fairness Cotts benefitted from SOD (Fielding, Pack, Flint, Williams) too.

Cotts spending power was peanuts compared to Johnson.

I don’t include the 14/15 season in my xls, but for info.

• Wages (inc NI, Pensions) £9.7m (SOD £9.6m)
• Amortisation £1.5m (SOD £1.1m)
• Other £5.5m (SOD £2.9m)
• Transfer Profit £1.4m (SOD £1.1m)

So, “To be fair, nobody in our history had had the spending power Cotts had with us” is factually incorrect.

Basically Cotts recruited efficiently.

Free transfers:

Little, Elliott, Ayling (£200k compo), Wilbraham

Swaps:

Smith for L.Kelly (plus £500k to Oldham)

Bought:

Agard (£800k), Freeman (£250k)

Sold: 

Baldock (£2m)

Look at the numbers I’ve posted above!  As for Agard v Baldock.  Don’t you think that was canny, to get your target in ahead of selling the player going out.  Baldock was rumoured to be leaving most of the summer.

Nor do you buy the League One title.

Sheffield Utd on a bigger budget than us didn’t romp the league.

Swindon Town didn’t publish detailed accounts

Preston / MKD had about 80% of Cotts budget

Yeah, we were a big fish....but we executed perfectly.  Plus JPT revenues, FA Cup 4th round, revenues, whilst on reduced capacity, impacting revenues.  Cotts actually increased revenues by 55% over previous season, because he filled the ground every week.

I think it would almost be applicable to end this with “FACT”, but I won’t.

 

Did Cotts have a similar budget to SOD? SOD had to sell and release a lot of big earners in order to get money in to build the club. He wasn’t provided the finances Cotts had in league one to build a side that would go on to win the title. Cotts was able to make a £2 million record signing (at the time), a luxury that no other manager had had in our history. That’s what I would describe as unparalleled spending power.

When SOD left, Cotts was able to bring in 4 loanees who helped the club to survival. I’ve seen a few posters point out the exact same thing happening with LJ, so surely we can use the same line of argument for Cotts when compared to SOD?

The stats are interesting, and the wage budget does say a lot. But that all came from a shift in direction under Johnson. We started to bring in younger players, develop them and sell them off for massive profits. This in turn allows for a larger wage budget as the transfer profits grew massively. Additionally, I’m sure if you compared the wage bill of the majority of clubs from 2015-19 you’d see a big increase in wages. That’s not something that is solely to do with Johnson, it’s something that happened in the world of football.

Cotts recruited very efficiently, I agree, but he was provided with the means to do so. No manager in our history had the sort of money he had to spend, especially at league one level. 
 

My point really is that if we’re going to use the ‘no manager in the history of the club had the money to spend that he had’ stick to beat LJ with. Why is Cotts exempt from that? Considering he also had more money to spend than any manager in our history, whilst breaking our transfer record and coming close to smashing even our present one in the summer of 2015. Yes he was treated unfairly in some ways, but he certainly had the biggest budget of any manager in our history

[B1ackbird]

I thought we were the third highest spenders in League one behind Sheffield United and Preston so we did well in winning the league quite easily. 

The surprising thing was how quickly the impetus that usually follows promotion dissappeared. 

 

[NickJ]

2 hours ago, JBFC II said:

To be fair, nobody in our history had had the spending power Cotts had with us. 
 

 

With all respect, that is absolute rubbish.

The sale of Baldock financed Cotts' signings, which he transformed into players worth several times their cost.

Johnson then benefitted from that, plus youngsters for whom the academy coaches not Johnson should be given credit, to sale for massive amounts in order to spunk on players like Engvall and others.

[Cowshed]

26 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

It’s clear from your posts that you have an interest or involvement in coaching. At what age group would you start to play in a club identity (genuine not trick question)?

Personally I would say you teach lads to play all styles up to at least U14/15 then start to play club philosophy on the basis you get more rounded footballers plus you are only one sacking away from a total shift potentially.

At U12 as was the intent of Mr Johnson.

If the club has a long term identity forming the technical (skills) base through play rather than intensive coaching can start at early ages. 

In regards to playing multiple styles that can lead to less rounded footballers. It leads to episodic coaching v periodized coaching and deeper learning. Models that increase the technical base and regularly stress players create more rounded players. A technical ball player has more opportunities to problem solve, the technical feeds the tactical, that well rounded. 

4-3-3 is a multitude of styles pivot, double pivot and is used world wide due to its flexibility =  It creates more rounded players. Its move one over, drop one to increase learning not throw it up in the air .. Humans learn more slowly without repetition. 

What Mr Johnson was doing does not mirror excellence in the UK or Europe. For a supposedly modern thinker and modern coach his methodology was utterly bewildering. His trips abroad studying ignored the models he visited. 

A club set up in the manner Mr Johnson was painting initially replaces head coach to head coach. The coach is selected to fit the identity - its principles and values remain intact.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Cowshed

[Portland Bill]

2 hours ago, Simon bristol said:

That promotion season was fantastic, but i dont think cotts has ever had much success at championship level? He was allowed to put together a dream team at league 1 level, but doing that at championship level takes serious money.

“Allowed”, or very good management to sign players that fitted into his plans, the plans of how he wanted us to play. The complete opposite of the manager who came in afterwards, who had no plan whatsoever. 

[IAmNick]

7 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

We've finished higher than Lee's 8th place once in my lifetime. Not saying we shouldn't strive for better, but Bristol City fans need to apply some perspective and realise our relative place in the football league and punching above that consistently IS/WAS an achievement. He just didn't have enough to get us over the line.

Not sure I'd agree.

In the last 20 years we've spent 12 of them in the Championship. 12 of the last 15 years in fact. I'd argue our current relative place IS the Championship.

Last time here we finished 4th, 10th, 10th, 15th, 20th, then 24th... So actually better than our current stint of 18th, 17th, 11th, 8th, 12th.

I think we are where we should be, and where our expenditure should have us - which makes me ask what the rest is adding (coaches, setup, world class recruitment) if we're just doing what's expected?

[Alan Dicks' Barmy Army]

I had forgotten the blind love in that a few posters had with Cotts

Amazing how some people can only see the good in one boss, and then only see the bad in another

[JBFC II]

Just now, NickJ said:

With all respect, that is absolute rubbish.

The sale of Baldock financed Cotts' signings, which he transformed into players worth several times their cost.

Johnson then benefitted from that, plus youngsters for whom the academy coaches not Johnson should be given credit, to sale for massive amounts in order to spunk on players like Engvall and others.

Very one eyed view of looking at things. 
 

Baldock was sold after we’d made all our signings, and even if we’d planned our signings around his sale then surely we should say the same about Johnson’s signings, which came off the back of major sales?

Its very easy to give Johnson 0 credit for the development of Bryan, Reid, Webster, Brownhill, Kelly etc but if you’re going to do that then you can’t really get involved in a discussion over LJ as it shows an agenda that’s not really worth arguing over

[italian dave]

Back to the staring point today for this thread, I just took a look at the Sunderland forum. I suspect that there have been some, including the OP, who simply don't like LJ and have been waiting for the opportunity, which inevitably comes after a poor performance and a disappointing result (think last Saturday on here). 

What's quoted above from the Sunderland fans is very selective. Here are three quotes from a single page elsewhere on the forum, all last week.

"I like the chap... I like the intent as well, young manager, obviously a student of the game, intelligent insight"

"Early days. I think he's still not getting the message across to some of our thicker players."

"He'll get us out of this league. Our best appointment since big Sam. He needs time to sort out the mess he's inherited but supporters will respond to how he wants to play, pressing and taking a risk to win games. I think he is without doubt getting the club going in the right direction."

Just for a bit of perspective and balance. 

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by italian dave

[Sheltons Army]

22 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Did Cotts have a similar budget to SOD? SOD had to sell and release a lot of big earners in order to get money in to build the club. He wasn’t provided the finances Cotts had in league one to build a side that would go on to win the title. Cotts was able to make a £2 million record signing (at the time), a luxury that no other manager had had in our history. That’s what I would describe as unparalleled spending power.

When SOD left, Cotts was able to bring in 4 loanees who helped the club to survival. I’ve seen a few posters point out the exact same thing happening with LJ, so surely we can use the same line of argument for Cotts when compared to SOD?

The stats are interesting, and the wage budget does say a lot. But that all came from a shift in direction under Johnson. We started to bring in younger players, develop them and sell them off for massive profits. This in turn allows for a larger wage budget as the transfer profits grew massively. Additionally, I’m sure if you compared the wage bill of the majority of clubs from 2015-19 you’d see a big increase in wages. That’s not something that is solely to do with Johnson, it’s something that happened in the world of football.

Cotts recruited very efficiently, I agree, but he was provided with the means to do so. No manager in our history had the sort of money he had to spend, especially at league one level. 
 

My point really is that if we’re going to use the ‘no manager in the history of the club had the money to spend that he had’ stick to beat LJ with. Why is Cotts exempt from that? Considering he also had more money to spend than any manager in our history, whilst breaking our transfer record and coming close to smashing even our present one in the summer of 2015. Yes he was treated unfairly in some ways, but he certainly had the biggest budget of any manager in our history

You’re still trying then 

Considering he also had more money to spend than any manager in our history

No manager in our history had the sort of money he had to spend, especially at league one level. 
 

it’s complete nonsense and fabrication

Just , merely , as an example You missed us buying Akinbiyi (£1.2m , Thorpe £1.35m and Soren Anderson £800k within 12 months in late 90s , then  

 

****

 My personal tip , and spoken as someone who wasn’t Cotts biggest fan some personality aspects , is to be extremely grateful for the fun and enjoyment he provided , rather rare & unique in all my years ,

rather than try to undermine what he achieved, with false claims

It may be a long wait for anything similar for you and many younger fans 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Sheltons Army