Sunderland fans loving POMO’s and USP’s

[Red7]

28 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Of course it always ends in tears. My wife was recently reminding me that at the end I was calling for TC to go.

Can't believe you wanted to get rid of TC.

Surely you can't mean Top Cat:

Top Cat!
The most effectual!
Top Cat!
Who's intellectual!
Close friends get to call him "T.C.,"
Providing it's with dignity!

Top Cat!
The indisputable leader of the gang.
He's the boss, he's a VIP, he's a championship.
He's the most tip top,
Top Cat.

 

[TedsHeadIs Red]

44 minutes ago, Red7 said:

Can't believe you wanted to get rid of TC.

Surely you can't mean Top Cat:

Top Cat!
The most effectual!
Top Cat!
Who's intellectual!
Close friends get to call him "T.C.,"
Providing it's with dignity!

Top Cat!
The indisputable leader of the gang.
He's the boss, he's a VIP, he's a championship.
He's the most tip top,
Top Cat.

 

?

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, SecretSam said:

Sorry, but those accounts are for the whole club, are they? Not just playing staff.  

And for a realistic comparison, you'd need to benchmark them against what other teams in the same league were spending. Year-on-year comparisons aren't valid as the spending needed to be competitive in the Championship has risen ahead of inflation.

Being facetious....worth going and having a look how competitive Millwall, Blackburn, Preston, Barnsley, Brentford are on fractions of our budget / costs.  It’s almost immaterial whether you take players wages or not, we are still vastly higher....even when just looking at the football club.

Here’s the same picture (above) with the football side separated.

If you take:

Millwall - Income £18.4m / Costs £23.4m (staff costs £16.9m) / Transfer Profit (£5.4m)

If you compare that to just our football side, they have bigger revenues (£2.2m more), smaller overall costs (£26.4m less) and smaller wage bill (£10.5m less).

Brentford - Income £17.8m / Costs £35.3m (staff costs £16.9m) / Transfer Profit (£27.2m)

So you can be competitive on a fraction of the costs City are.  I’d suggest we’ve got a bit carried away!

 

[Kid in the Riot]

I should stay away from this thread but couldn't resist posting this from a Sunderland fan I know 

Quote

 

I reckon City should have stuck with Lee Johnson instead of chopping and changing all the time. Since arriving at Sunderland he has been a breath of fresh air and the team are definitely playing better football. At times against Doncaster we were really good. The mid-week game against Lincoln in the cup semi-final was a bit dour but we still came through. What I like about LJ is that he very quickly spots the strengths and weaknesses of players, a bit like Big Sam did when he became our Manager. If we can avoid too many injuries I fancy us to get promoted this season. Also cause for optimism is the fact that we now have a new owner, so hopefully some more investment on the way. The last owner Stuart Donald did do a good job in clearing all the debts and getting the club back on a sound financial footing but he didn't have the resources to go further.

Shame we can't go to Wembley to watch the Papa Johns Final but I fancy we can beat Tranmere having watched them against Oxford on Tuesday.

 

 

[SecretSam]

1 hour ago, Red7 said:

Can't believe you wanted to get rid of TC.

Surely you can't mean Top Cat:

Top Cat!
The most effectual!
Top Cat!
Who's intellectual!
Close friends get to call him "T.C.,"
Providing it's with dignity!

Top Cat!
The indisputable leader of the gang.
He's the boss, he's a VIP, he's a championship.
He's the most tip top,
Top Cat.

I never knew the words to that before...:D

[Red Exile]

3 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

I never knew the words to that before...:D

I have to confess I did!

Sad I know...

For the record in my original post wasn't referring to Top Cat btw.

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Red Exile

[SecretSam]

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Being facetious....worth going and having a look how competitive Millwall, Blackburn, Preston, Barnsley, Brentford are on fractions of our budget / costs.  It’s almost immaterial whether you take players wages or not, we are still vastly higher....even when just looking at the football club.

Here’s the same picture (above) with the football side separated.

If you take:

Millwall - Income £18.4m / Costs £23.4m (staff costs £16.9m) / Transfer Profit (£5.4m)

If you compare that to just our football side, they have bigger revenues (£2.2m more), smaller overall costs (£26.4m less) and smaller wage bill (£10.5m less).

Brentford - Income £17.8m / Costs £35.3m (staff costs £16.9m) / Transfer Profit (£27.2m)

So you can be competitive on a fraction of the costs City are.  I’d suggest we’ve got a bit carried away!

 

OK, fair enough. One thought that does occur: do we have to overpay on wages because of where we are? London, midlands or north west clubs all have other clubs near. We don't, so if you settle here, there's more of a risk of upheaval? Just a thought.

Edited February 19, 2021 by SecretSam

[SecretSam]

5 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I have to confess I did!

Sad I know...

For the record in my original post wasn't referring to Top Cat btw.

 

But I wonder how many of us now have that song in our heads....

[Bristol Oil Services]

11 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I should stay away from this thread but couldn't resist posting this from a Sunderland fan I know 

 

We needed a "breath of fresh air," remember, and a freshing up after 4 years - that was the considered opinion of the owner. As well as the baying crowd.

And LJ, too, perhaps, needed a refresh, and a reboot. To "go again."

We were 12th, going down the table, and backwards, playing tedious low-shoot/chance football, and playing blokes like Afobe wide left. We were well on the way towards the shite we've seen this season when Lee was fired, with quite a few fewer injuries.

We needed a break from him, and he needed a break from us/here.

SL got that bit right! Now he has a second go at getting LJ's replacement and the fabled "breath of fresh air" right.

This season has made it too easy to forget how poor we were under Lee by the end, and the direction of travel of this club under the Ashton/Johnson partnership. 

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

OK, fair enough. One thought that does occur: do we have to overpay on wages because of where we are? London, midlands or north west clubs all have other clubs near. We don't, so if you settle here, there's more of a risk of upheaval? Just a thought.

My gut feel is that’s much more of a consideration in the leagues below us, where wages are much lower.

[SecretSam]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My gut feel is that’s much more of a consideration in the leagues below us, where wages are much lower.

Possibly. How the hell do Exeter or Carlisle recruit???

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, SecretSam said:

Possibly. How the hell do Exeter or Carlisle recruit???

The Devon clubs have traditionally seen a lot of players doing the rounds.

Worth getting hold of Ben Smith’s autobiography.  It’s a real eye opener for how players in Lg1/2 and Conference “live”, the Merry go-round of renting other players houses, desperate for a pro contract so they get paid over the summer etc.

[LondonBristolian]

36 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

We needed a "breath of fresh air," remember, and a freshing up after 4 years - that was the considered opinion of the owner. As well as the baying crowd.

And LJ, too, perhaps, needed a refresh, and a reboot. To "go again."

We were 12th, going down the table, and backwards, playing tedious low-shoot/chance football, and playing blokes like Afobe wide left. We were well on the way towards the shite we've seen this season when Lee was fired, with quite a few fewer injuries.

We needed a break from him, and he needed a break from us/here.

SL got that bit right! Now he has a second go at getting LJ's replacement and the fabled "breath of fresh air" right.

This season has made it too easy to forget how poor we were under Lee by the end, and the direction of travel of this club under the Ashton/Johnson partnership. 

I think the problem is that people are naturally very selective with what they remember about managers. It's selective to ignore the utterly superb job Steve Cotterill did in League One, and the brilliant football we made, but it's equally selective to ignore the fact he was doing a very good job of taking us back there when he got sacked. Meanwhile Lee Johnson did a good job in parts - the League Cup run, turning a relegation threatened side into promotion challengers - but we had the dire losing streak in his second season and, as you say, we went through several awful spells in his last season. We were dreadful in January and February and then abysmal when we came back after the restart. There's no doubt at all that it was time for Johnson to go but we were very decent for spells under him. There is no doubt that we were brilliant in 2014/2015 underr Cotterill but we were dreadful in 15/16 and would have been relegated without a change of manager.

People seem to feel the need to set up this slightly bizarre Cotterill fan vs Johnson fan rivalry where they wholly praise one and wholly trash the other but, with both managers, it was way more complex than that. 

[Robbored]

I went on to the Sunderland forum to give them some insight into what they could expect from LJ as a gesture of goodwill amongst football fans - what an ignorant bunch! 

 

[Red7]

58 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I have to confess I did!

Sad I know...

For the record in my original post wasn't referring to Top Cat btw.

 

I know, mate.
It just came into my head for some reason - started drinking early today
Had to copy and paste the words, mind. Far too long ago to remember.

[Red Exile]

29 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think the problem is that people are naturally very selective with what they remember about managers. It's selective to ignore the utterly superb job Steve Cotterill did in League One, and the brilliant football we made, but it's equally selective to ignore the fact he was doing a very good job of taking us back there when he got sacked. Meanwhile Lee Johnson did a good job in parts - the League Cup run, turning a relegation threatened side into promotion challengers - but we had the dire losing streak in his second season and, as you say, we went through several awful spells in his last season. We were dreadful in January and February and then abysmal when we came back after the restart. There's no doubt at all that it was time for Johnson to go but we were very decent for spells under him. There is no doubt that we were brilliant in 2014/2015 underr Cotterill but we were dreadful in 15/16 and would have been relegated without a change of manager.

People seem to feel the need to set up this slightly bizarre Cotterill fan vs Johnson fan rivalry where they wholly praise one and wholly trash the other but, with both managers, it was way more complex than that. 

I agree....but over time matches...even seasons...blur into each other, what's remembered are the truly stand out moments. With Steve Cotterill there are many of these, and because he left so soon after all of those really very few poor ones. By complete contrast I associate LJ with outstaying his welcome!

That said if I had to pick a handful of my finest ever City moments they would include Korey's winner...but I associate that match with Korey and Joe Bryan far more than LJ. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Red Exile

[LondonBristolian]

23 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

I agree....but over time matches...even seasons...blur into each other, what's remembered are the truly stand out moments. With Steve Cotterill there are many of these, and because he left so soon after all of those really very few poor ones. By complete contrast I associate LJ with outstaying his welcome!

That said if I had to pick a handful of my finest ever City moments they would include Korey's winner...but I associate that match with Korey and Joe Bryan far more than LJ. 

I’d agree with all of that. I think the other issue with Johnson is that he never had a good entire season and tended to end seasons badly. We played some lovely stuff at times in both 17/18 and 18/19 but the overriding feeling at the end of both seasons was one of disappointment and missed opportunity. 

[NickJ]

On 19/02/2021 at 14:39, Kid in the Riot said:

I should stay away from this thread but couldn't resist posting this from a Sunderland fan I know 

 

Your mate may be saying that now mate, after a couple of easy victories, but after a couple of defeats and LJ blaming eveyone bar himself and talking absolute drivel again, I dare say your mate may have a different opinion. These comments from just the first of 14 pages in response to LJ's post match comments after the defeat against Shrewsbury, could have been lifted straight off of OTIB:

Thought we were good for a draw . It’s ****ing Shrewsbury.

Looks and sounds a beaten man

USP!!! 

He’s bigged up every team we’ve played just in case

Talks a lot, says nowt

Would rather lick up someone’s cold spew than listen to the shite coming from his mouth. Thinks he knows it all but knows **** all.

Back to basics already he says.... POMO and Bomb Alley binned

Watched 40 seconds and had to switch it off.

I would drop the Mr marra, He is losing my respect rapidly

Absolute Whopper

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 19/02/2021 at 12:27, SecretSam said:

Sorry, but those accounts are for the whole club, are they? Not just playing staff.  

And for a realistic comparison, you'd need to benchmark them against what other teams in the same league were spending. Year-on-year comparisons aren't valid as the spending needed to be competitive in the Championship has risen ahead of inflation.

Apologies to Dave if he's already covered this point but that's the total wage bill, yes.

All counts towards FFP, consolidated accounts are used for this. The bulk will be football (probably player based) wages in any case.

You're right about Championship wages rising faster than inflation. Faster than TV/Solidarity money growth is another useful benchmark.

[City1970]

On 10/02/2021 at 00:48, Portland Bill said:

Potentially, or potentially not.

Strange how SL’s cheque book was found after he sacked SC wasn’t it.

SC gave us fans the best season in decades, he deserved some loyalty from the owner imo. 

I don't trust the Lansdowns, you don't make billions by being honest and truthful. 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Apologies to Dave if he's already covered this point but that's the total wage bill, yes.

All counts towards FFP, consolidated accounts are used for this. The bulk will be football (probably player based) wages in any case.

You're right about Championship wages rising faster than inflation. Faster than TV/Solidarity money growth is another useful benchmark.

Just listening to SL in 2013.  He said club wage bill of £18m of which £16m was playing staff.

[Harry]

On 19/02/2021 at 15:42, LondonBristolian said:

I think the problem is that people are naturally very selective with what they remember about managers. It's selective to ignore the utterly superb job Steve Cotterill did in League One, and the brilliant football we made, but it's equally selective to ignore the fact he was doing a very good job of taking us back there when he got sacked. Meanwhile Lee Johnson did a good job in parts - the League Cup run, turning a relegation threatened side into promotion challengers - but we had the dire losing streak in his second season and, as you say, we went through several awful spells in his last season. We were dreadful in January and February and then abysmal when we came back after the restart. There's no doubt at all that it was time for Johnson to go but we were very decent for spells under him. There is no doubt that we were brilliant in 2014/2015 underr Cotterill but we were dreadful in 15/16 and would have been relegated without a change of manager.

People seem to feel the need to set up this slightly bizarre Cotterill fan vs Johnson fan rivalry where they wholly praise one and wholly trash the other but, with both managers, it was way more complex than that. 

Yes. I think there is a fair amount of selectivity when remembering Cotterills reign. 
Let me be clear, I totally loved him in that double winning season. It was fantastic. But think back to his early days. 
He arrived when we were 2 points from safety and a -5 gd. After his first 14 games, he only had 4 wins and we were still 2 points from safety and -8 gd. It was only when a member of the CSF was allowed in the dressing room vs Gillingham that the players started taking our plight seriously and the last 13 games after that they won 7 and drew 5. 
I put that superb run of results as much down to Divvy and his honest assessment, as much as to SC’s motivation of the troops who’d just won 2 in 10 games!! 
 

Of course, the rest is history and if I ever see Cotts (which I have done) I am always forever grateful to him for that 14/15 season. But let’s not kid ourselves to think he was an instant success - it was only Divvy’s intervention that saved us that season! 
 

Cotts struggled at the start, was excellent in the middle, and then struggled at the end. But he’ll always be well regarded. 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Harry

[NickJ]

51 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yes. I think there is a fair amount of selectivity when remembering Cotterills reign. 
Let me be clear, I totally loved him in that double winning season. It was fantastic. But think back to his early days. 
He arrived when we were 2 points from safety and a -5 gd. After his first 14 games, he only had 4 wins and we were still 2 points from safety and -8 gd. It was only when a member of the CSF was allowed in the dressing room vs Gillingham that the players started taking our plight seriously and the last 13 games after that they won 7 and drew 5. 
I put that superb run of results as much down to Divvy and his honest assessment, as much as to SC’s motivation of the troops who’d just won 2 in 10 games!! 
 

Of course, the rest is history and if I ever see Cotts (which I have done) I am always forever grateful to him for that 14/15 season. But let’s not kid ourselves to think he was an instant success - it was only Divvy’s intervention that saved us that season! 
 

Cotts struggled at the start, was excellent in the middle, and then struggled at the end. But he’ll always be well regarded. 

Are you actually being serious Harry?

Before Cotterill we had 2 wins from 19 games with 15 points. That's 0.78 points per game.

You could take various periods afer he arrived, but to focus on his first 14 games yes it was 4 wins but with 5 draws and 5 defeats and 17 points. That's 1.2 points per game.

So statistically Cotterill improved us by 50% in his first 14 games.

That took us to the beginning of February by which time Cotts had sorted out the shit and brought in what he could in the transfer window, which enabled him to continue his improvement which was nothing short of miraculous.

Give the bloke a bit of credit mate.

[And Its Smith]

Sunderland fans hated him and now love him.  What a surprise.  

[Phileas Fogg]

On 19/02/2021 at 15:45, Robbored said:

I went on to the Sunderland forum to give them some insight into what they could expect from LJ as a gesture of goodwill amongst football fans - what an ignorant bunch! 

 

Please don't do that on our behalf, you'll give us all a bad name!

[Harry]

25 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Are you actually being serious Harry?

Before Cotterill we had 2 wins from 19 games with 15 points. That's 0.78 points per game.

You could take various periods afer he arrived, but to focus on his first 14 games yes it was 4 wins but with 5 draws and 5 defeats and 17 points. That's 1.2 points per game.

So statistically Cotterill improved us by 50% in his first 14 games.

That took us to the beginning of February by which time Cotts had sorted out the shit and brought in what he could in the transfer window, which enabled him to continue his improvement which was nothing short of miraculous.

Give the bloke a bit of credit mate.

Ha ha. I knew you’d bite Nick

Course I’m not serious. But I did want to make the very valid point that the real upturn didn’t happen until Divvy gave them a good talking to.

[NickJ]

54 minutes ago, Harry said:

Ha ha. I knew you’d bite Nick

Course I’m not serious. But I did want to make the very valid point that the real upturn didn’t happen until Divvy gave them a good talking to.

No so sure those stats weren’t meant to be serious mate but anyway fair play to Divvy for saving the season!

[Alex_BCFC]

Well he’s got Sunderland on a pretty good run - always a very streaky manager. Hope he gets them up as love a weekend up there. 

[Phileas Fogg]

38 minutes ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Well he’s got Sunderland on a pretty good run - always a very streaky manager. Hope he gets them up as love a weekend up there. 

Yeah doing really well. Seeing as this thread started with negative comments from Sunderland fans.. lots of ones like this now. 

It’ll be interesting to see if Johnson can maintain it. They look to have a really good side there. Charlie Wyke scoring almost every game and Aidan McGeady performing really well too.

[Cardy]

I hope he does well there. A promotion on his CV would do him the world of good.
We have moved on though & are currently punching well above LJ’s level.