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12 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

You’re still trying then 

Considering he also had more money to spend than any manager in our history

No manager in our history had the sort of money he had to spend, especially at league one level. 
 

it’s complete nonsense and fabrication

Just , merely , as an example You missed us buying Akinbiyi (£1.2m , Thorpe £1.35m and Soren Anderson £800k within 12 months in late 90s , then  

It’s not though is it. He had more money than any manager in our history, look at the wage budget, look at the money spent on players coming in. We’d rarely been able to spend that sort of money.

The signing of Akinbyi was a major one for the club, but parallels are there with kodjia. Thorpe and Anderson were financed by the sales of Barnard and goater the summer before, much like how the transfer window in 2014/15 ended up being financed by the late sale of Baldock

A simple question if you don’t believe Cotts had more money to spend than any other manager before him. What other manager was able to spend over £2 million quid on a striker (even allowing for inflation) in our history?

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Just now, Sheltons Army said:

You’re still trying then 

Considering he also had more money to spend than any manager in our history

No manager in our history had the sort of money he had to spend, especially at league one level. 
 

it’s complete nonsense and fabrication

Just , merely , as an example You missed us buying Akinbiyi (£1.2m , Thorpe £1.35m and Soren Anderson £800k within 12 months in late 90s , then  

Exactly this. Another example: in the 90s we were able to take a promising young striker on loan from a top Premiership club (Andy Cole) and having proved his worth during his loan season we could afford to prise him from that club on a permanent move in the summer. Imagine having been able to that nowadays with Tammy Abraham.

I think the other thing that's often overlooked in the comparisons about who was able to sign who, is the issue of departures. I'm not sure there has ever been a manager at City prior to LJ who has had to lose his top players at the end of every season. It may have made good business sense, but to have to lose players like Kodjia, Kelly, Webster, Brownhill, on a regular basis is as much of a challenge as having the cash to sign players.

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15 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Did Cotts have a similar budget to SOD? SOD had to sell and release a lot of big earners in order to get money in to build the club. He wasn’t provided the finances Cotts had in league one to build a side that would go on to win the title. Cotts was able to make a £2 million record signing (at the time), a luxury that no other manager had had in our history. That’s what I would describe as unparalleled spending power.

When SOD left, Cotts was able to bring in 4 loanees who helped the club to survival. I’ve seen a few posters point out the exact same thing happening with LJ, so surely we can use the same line of argument for Cotts when compared to SOD?

The stats are interesting, and the wage budget does say a lot. But that all came from a shift in direction under Johnson. We started to bring in younger players, develop them and sell them off for massive profits. This in turn allows for a larger wage budget as the transfer profits grew massively. Additionally, I’m sure if you compared the wage bill of the majority of clubs from 2015-19 you’d see a big increase in wages. That’s not something that is solely to do with Johnson, it’s something that happened in the world of football.

Cotts recruited very efficiently, I agree, but he was provided with the means to do so. No manager in our history had the sort of money he had to spend, especially at league one level. 
 

My point really is that if we’re going to use the ‘no manager in the history of the club had the money to spend that he had’ stick to beat LJ with. Why is Cotts exempt from that? Considering he also had more money to spend than any manager in our history, whilst breaking our transfer record and coming close to smashing even our present one in the summer of 2015. Yes he was treated unfairly in some ways, but he certainly had the biggest budget of any manager in our history

Seeing that SOD got rid of so many high earners in the summer of 13/14....why was his wage bill so large then?  Your statement doesn’t hold any water.

I’m grateful for the ball SOD started rolling, just that he didn’t do it on a shoestring.

What about the loans of:

McLaughlin, Shorey, Richards (nominal wages), Gillett, O’Connor?

Where does Baldock’s £2m fit in?  Does that not count?

 

As for Johnson (btw I include Ashton heavily in this debate), please name this swathe of younger terms developed and sold for massive profits?  Then list all of the young ones that didn’t either develop or get sold for massive sums.  I’ve got a list of all 68 transfers since summer of 2016 if you like.

 

Your statement about biggest budget is just factually incorrect.  Your arguments are weak, inconsistent.  It’s laughable really.

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7 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

It’s not though is it. He had more money than any manager in our history, look at the wage budget, look at the money spent on players coming in. We’d rarely been able to spend that sort of money.

The signing of Akinbyi was a major one for the club, but parallels are there with kodjia. Thorpe and Anderson were financed by the sales of Barnard and goater the summer before, much like how the transfer window in 2014/15 ended up being financed by the late sale of Baldock

Have to disagree on Akinbiyi/Kodjia. Akinbiyi was very much a known quantity, having been playing in the same league as us (and scoring lots of goals) the year we bought him. It was an era when we just bought the best players from that league every season! Kodjia was a relative unknown, having to move to a new country. 

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8 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

It’s not though is it. He had more money than any manager in our history, look at the wage budget, look at the money spent on players coming in. We’d rarely been able to spend that sort of money.

The signing of Akinbyi was a major one for the club, but parallels are there with kodjia. Thorpe and Anderson were financed by the sales of Barnard and goater the summer before, much like how the transfer window in 2014/15 ended up being financed by the late sale of Baldock

A simple question if you don’t believe Cotts had more money to spend than any other manager before him. What other manager was able to spend over £2 million quid on a striker (even allowing for inflation) in our history?

Worth going back and looking at some of the accounts in the early 2000s....see what the wage bills were then.

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23 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Did Cotts have a similar budget to SOD? SOD had to sell and release a lot of big earners in order to get money in to build the club. He wasn’t provided the finances Cotts had in league one to build a side that would go on to win the title. Cotts was able to make a £2 million record signing (at the time), a luxury that no other manager had had in our history* That’s what I would describe as unparalleled spending power.

When SOD left, Cotts was able to bring in 4 loanees who helped the club to survival. I’ve seen a few posters point out the exact same thing happening with LJ, so surely we can use the same line of argument for Cotts when compared to SOD?

The stats are interesting, and the wage budget does say a lot. But that all came from a shift in direction under Johnson. We started to bring in younger players, develop them and sell them off for massive profits. This in turn allows for a larger wage budget as the transfer profits grew massively. Additionally, I’m sure if you compared the wage bill of the majority of clubs from 2015-19 you’d see a big increase in wages. That’s not something that is solely to do with Johnson, it’s something that happened in the world of football.

Cotts recruited very efficiently, I agree, but he was provided with the means to do so. No manager in our history had the sort of money he had to spend, especially at league one level. 
 

My point really is that if we’re going to use the ‘no manager in the history of the club had the money to spend that he had’ stick to beat LJ with. Why is Cotts exempt from that? Considering he also had more money to spend than any manager in our history, whilst breaking our transfer record and coming close to smashing even our present one in the summer of 2015. Yes he was treated unfairly in some ways, but he certainly had the biggest budget of any manager in our history

*Akinbiyi, Thorpe, Maynard, Anderson, Carle, but feel free to go ahead and ignore those. 

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Seeing that SOD got rid of so many high earners in the summer of 13/14....why was his wage bill so large then?  Your statement doesn’t hold any water.

I’m grateful for the ball SOD started rolling, just that he didn’t do it on a shoestring.

What about the loans of:

McLaughlin, Shorey, Richards (nominal wages), Gillett, O’Connor?

Where does Baldock’s £2m fit in?  Does that not count?

 

As for Johnson (btw I include Ashton heavily in this debate), please name this swathe of younger terms developed and sold for massive profits?  Then list all of the young ones that didn’t either develop or get sold for massive sums.  I’ve got a list of all 68 transfers since summer of 2016 if you like.

 

Your statement about biggest budget is just factually incorrect.  Your arguments are weak, inconsistent.  It’s laughable really.

Luke Ayling ??  we stole £200k off Leeds for him 

On a serious note........ (lets for arguments sake ignore their any inherit abilities and natural development )

Webster........

and Brownhill .....

some credit with Reid ....

and.....

uhm....

and....

uhm....

 

 

68 you say ?

Oh

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32 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Achievements deserve context and perspective. Our achievements (and expectations) are different to other clubs.

Norwich for example would be expecting promotion this season. If they get it, is it an achivement or is it the expectation being met? If Wycombe were in amongst the playoffs all season but finished 8th, then went on to sustain their Championship status for 3-4 years I'd say that's an achievement.

Likewise, if Man City earn a Champions League spot but dont win the league, that wouldn't be seen as an achievement as such - but it would if West Ham or Everton made it.

At the point LJ came in we were on our way back to League 1. We are a mid-table Championship side - and that's because of the work LJ did here. We have no given right to expect a play off place and promotion.

We've finished higher than Lee's 8th place once in my lifetime. Not saying we shouldn't strive for better, but Bristol City fans need to apply some perspective and realise our relative place in the football league and punching above that consistently IS/WAS an achievement. He just didn't have enough to get us over the line.

Fair points but I disagree.

When LJ took over we were in the Championship, when he left we were in the Championship, albeit higher up. Expectations throughout - aided and abetted by LJ/SL etc. - (lets not forget Europe in five years also) was play offs at worst and outright promotion at best.  He failed on all counts.  

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15 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

It’s not though is it. He had more money than any manager in our history, look at the wage budget, look at the money spent on players coming in. We’d rarely been able to spend that sort of money.

The signing of Akinbyi was a major one for the club, but parallels are there with kodjia. Thorpe and Anderson were financed by the sales of Barnard and goater the summer before, much like how the transfer window in 2014/15 ended up being financed by the late sale of Baldock

A simple question if you don’t believe Cotts had more money to spend than any other manager before him. What other manager was able to spend over £2 million quid on a striker (even allowing for inflation) in our history?

I ain’t wasting anymore time on you as you are talking bollox again.
Are you related to Johnson by any chance?

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Seeing that SOD got rid of so many high earners in the summer of 13/14....why was his wage bill so large then?  Your statement doesn’t hold any water.

I’m grateful for the ball SOD started rolling, just that he didn’t do it on a shoestring.

What about the loans of:

McLaughlin, Shorey, Richards (nominal wages), Gillett, O’Connor?

Where does Baldock’s £2m fit in?  Does that not count?

 

As for Johnson (btw I include Ashton heavily in this debate), please name this swathe of younger terms developed and sold for massive profits?  Then list all of the young ones that didn’t either develop or get sold for massive sums.  I’ve got a list of all 68 transfers since summer of 2016 if you like.

 

Your statement about biggest budget is just factually incorrect.  Your arguments are weak, inconsistent.  It’s laughable really.

His wage bill was large, but we can agree that Cotts had a larger one, much like LJ did compared to Cotts. That’s football.

SOD was allowed to bring in loan players, correct, however can we really say they improved the side in the same way Cotts loanees did? The introduction of those loanees changed our season in many respects, SOD had to strip back the squad, Cotts was allowed to invest in it.

Johnson made 36 permanent signings. We could go through them all and work out which ones worked and which didn’t, but that’s been done multiple times already. His recruitment wasn’t perfect (like every manager in history) but even the (relatively) cheap dud signings can be cancelled out by the profits he made on others. 
 

Thanks for your comments at the end, no need for them, you’re a better poster than that. Leave the cheap jibes for other posters!

3 minutes ago, GasDestroyer said:

I ain’t wasting anymore time on you as you are talking bollox again.
Are you related to Johnson by any chance?

Cool, you’re more than welcome to become the first person to block me!

And no I’m not, funny how that’s the automatic thing people say about posters who aren’t totally anti him isn’t it

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14 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Back to the staring point today for this thread, I just took a look at the Sunderland forum. I suspect that there have been some, including the OP, who simply don't like LJ and have been waiting for the opportunity, which inevitably comes after a poor performance and a disappointing result (think last Saturday on here). 

What's quoted above from the Sunderland fans is very selective. Here are three quotes from a single page elsewhere on the forum, all last week.

"I like the chap... I like the intent as well, young manager, obviously a student of the game, intelligent insight"

"Early days. I think he's still not getting the message across to some of our thicker players."

"He'll get us out of this league. Our best appointment since big Sam. He needs time to sort out the mess he's inherited but supporters will respond to how he wants to play, pressing and taking a risk to win games. I think he is without doubt getting the club going in the right direction."

Just for a bit of perspective and balance. 

 

You are right I am far from a fan of LJ as I think he's been gifted a very lucrative career way over and above what his playing and managerial capabilities warranted. Wouldnt bother me if it wasnt to the detriment of the football club I've supported for more years than I'd like to own up to.

But to suggest that your comments above provides "perspective and balance", considering that 90% of the Sunderland fans are mocking and taking the piss out of Johnson is grossly inaccurate.

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29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Not blind love, but lots of factual statements.  

For what it’s worth i thought we had a brilliant couple of seasons under Cotts, i really enjoyed the games in L1 and we were great to watch. Do i think it was right to let him go.....yes.

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19 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Luke Ayling ??  we stole £200k off Leeds for him 

On a serious note........ (lets for arguments sake ignore their any inherit abilities and natural development )

Webster........

and Brownhill .....

some credit with Reid ....

and.....

uhm....

and....

uhm....

 

 

68 you say ?

Oh

Come on Shelts - your usually quite fair, ‘some credit with Reid’? Think he deserves a bit more than that! 
kelly? Joe Bryan? Pack? Flint, not signed by him but all certainly improved under him and they are hard players to replace 

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7 minutes ago, Rob k said:

Come on Shelts - your usually quite fair, ‘some credit with Reid’? Think he deserves a bit more than that! 
kelly? Joe Bryan? Pack? Flint, not signed by him but all certainly improved under him and they are hard players to replace 

Agreed; ultimately the buck stops with the manager so making such a big call with Reid earns him full credit. The manager is the sum of the parts of the whole playing/analytical/recruitment arms of the club so surely earns credit.

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1 minute ago, Rob k said:

Come on Shelts - your usually quite fair, ‘some credit with Reid’? Think he deserves a bit more than that! 
kelly? Joe Bryan? Pack? Flint, not signed by him but all certainly improved under him and they are hard players to replace 

Reid - despite some pointing out it was analysts suggestion he definitely deserves credit , though as (I think it was @Davefevshas previously suggested Reid learn a massive amount from Tammy Abraham’s season here - Remember his move upfront also coincided with him spending the whole summer.privately training to improve his physicality / conditioning so credit to the player himself as well

Kelly - Im not sure anyone wouldn’t have been stupid enough to not bring him through - developed him ? bit of a bold claim , undoubtedly helped but natural ability and potential etc was still Kelly’s value when we sold

Joe Bryan - Id say more natural progression of a very decent focused player personally 

Pack - Possibly the best argument from that group , probably got the best from him tbf , but he was also fixated about Packs role

Flint - disagree - he didn’t fancy Flint and was pretty open about that - Cotts was the one who jumped forward with Flint , together with a personal desire within Flint

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13 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

His wage bill was large, but we can agree that Cotts had a larger one, much like LJ did compared to Cotts. That’s football.

no we effin cannot agree.  I’ve given you the facts.  Okay, it was £88,437 more than SOD.  But he increased revenues by £2,619,322 over SOD.  Cotts transfer profit was also £468,044 better too.  SOD presided over a £16m wage bill in 12/13.  So, no we most definitely cannot agree.  You are talking absolute rubbish.

SOD was allowed to bring in loan players, correct, however can we really say they improved the side in the same way Cotts loanees did?

so you want to credit SOD for some bad loan signings?  You are joking aren’t you.  Listen to your argument.  Jeeeeeez.

The introduction of those loanees changed our season in many respects, SOD had to strip back the squad, Cotts was allowed to invest in it.

Johnson made 36 permanent signings. We could go through them all and work out which ones worked and which didn’t, but that’s been done multiple times already. His recruitment wasn’t perfect (like every manager in history) but even the (relatively) cheap dud signings can be cancelled out by the profits he made on others.

so you don’t answer the question.  In fact there have been two.  Brownhill and Webster.  There are probably two or three in the pipeline.  Bentley, Semenyo and Massengo, possibly Bakinson.

If you want to change the argument away from just wagebill / budget, I’ll happily go there.  Start preparing your facts and sources.
 

Thanks for your comments at the end, no need for them, you’re a better poster than that. Leave the cheap jibes for other posters!

Cool, you’re more than welcome to become the first person to block me!

And no I’m not, funny how that’s the automatic thing people say about posters who aren’t totally anti him isn’t it

⬆️⬆️⬆️

3 minutes ago, Rob k said:

For what it’s worth i thought we had a brilliant couple of seasons under Cotts, i really enjoyed the games in L1 and we were great to watch. Do i think it was right to let him go.....yes.

Agree totally.  Even as much as I loved the spell too, I’m not bound by rose tinted specs either.

I enjoyed short spells under LJ too.  My biggest beefs with LJ were 1) playing philosophy consistency and 2) the recruitment double act with Ashton which is likely to put us back to where we were in 2012 when SOD replaced McInnes....which coincided with Ashton’s previous stint at Bristol City as part of his tactical Management Ltd consultancy.

If you’re who I think you are, then our mutual friend, told me some interesting stuff about that period which I wasn’t aware of.  Basically that Ashton got rid of the Recruitment person who McInnes trusted, and after a promising start as City boss, it all went pear shaped.  That recruitment person is back with McInnes at Aberdeen.  I very much suspect McIness (as a young manager) was duped (as has SL) by the dodgy Brummie.

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I’m actually surprised LJ took on a job like Sunderland. The fans and people up there are a different breed to us laid back Bristolians. They’re a massive club in League One and will be wanting instant success, so I’m not sure LJ is the man to do that as he likes long term ‘projects’. 
 
Bit of a difference coming from a cosy Bristol City with owners you know well, to Sunderland!

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3 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Reid - despite some pointing out it was analysts suggestion he definitely deserves credit , though as (I think it was @Davefevshas previously suggested Reid learn a massive amount from Tammy Abraham’s season here - Remember his move upfront also coincided with him spending the whole summer.privately training to improve his physicality / conditioning so credit to the player himself as well

Kelly - Im not sure anyone wouldn’t have been stupid enough to not bring him through - developed him ? bit of a bold claim , undoubtedly helped but natural ability and potential etc was still Kelly’s value when we sold

Joe Bryan - Id say more natural progression of a very decent focused player personally 

Pack - Possibly the best argument from that group , probably got the best from him tbf , but he was also fixated about Packs role

Flint - disagree - he didn’t fancy Flint and was pretty open about that - Cotts was the one who jumped forward with Flint , together with a personal desire within Flint

I love these debates.  It wasn’t me re Tammy....but I think Tammy listed the expectation levels of every player, he was a serious talent and nobody wanted to let him down.

Cotts brought Kelly through to some extent in Portugal.  But tenuous.

Cotts brought Pack through at Portsmouth before suggesting Cheltenham.  Funny little back-history things like that amuse me.  But I’m a bit weird like that. ???

2 minutes ago, Lew-T said:

I’m actually surprised LJ took on a job like Sunderland. The fans and people up there are a different breed to us laid back Bristolians. They’re a massive club in League One and will be wanting instant success, so I’m not sure LJ is the man to do that as he likes long term ‘projects’. 
 
Bit of a difference coming from a cosy Bristol City with owners you know well, to Sunderland!

Big career defining decision.  Fair play to him actually.

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2 hours ago, Rob k said:

It’s Absolutely not true - i was right next to it, probably the guy behind the bloke who was rowing. it was completely unwarranted from SC, he came back out to row and was pretty much told to do one. It was a long time ago now so can’t remember the exact exchange word for word but it was very unnecessary from a manager of a football club 

SC is mad as a box of frogs, and anyone that has spent even a short time in his company (as I have, and know others that have spent much more time with him) would tell you that. Did he sometimes come across as calm, polite and amiable? Yes. Did he also have a foul temper and was liable to unprovoked rants where he would come across as unhinged? Yes. 

At Pompey he was intensely disliked by players, staff and supporters. His half-time talks would frequently be heard pitchside as he screamed at players, one time memorably going around the changing room and pointing at each player and screaming "****" in their faces. He was said to be bitter about what the players earned and frequently raised their salaries in rants. When he came back managing Forest he allegedly threatened to stab Dave Kitson outside the players entrance. 

He was frequently rude and aggressive to members of staff, a trait followed through at Ashton Gate, screaming at groundstaff among others. 

The latter just does not fit into modern football management and with SC it is always a matter of time before he blows up, as he did at City. Did he have legitimate grievances? Yes. Were the Lansdown family partly responsible for screwing up summer 2015? Yes. But he could have played the hand he was given much better than he did, and no offence to the revisionists but within just a couple of months LJ had turned the team around from getting pumped 3-0 at the likes of Rotherham to beating Sheff Weds 4-1 at home, guiding us to safety comfortably. 

People are mocking opposition fans' opinions of LJ. Go on some football forums - other than this one - and find me anything other than mocking and ridicule of SC. Not saying it's justified, but the reality is he has a poor reputation and that is part of the reason he has been out of work for so long.

Shrewsbury is a perfect job for him and he will do well, but let's not pretend that makes him suitable for this job right now, or that it was anything other than the right decision to sack him back in 2016.

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4 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

SC is mad as a box of frogs, and anyone that has spent even a short time in his company (as I have, and know others that have spent much more time with him) would tell you that. Did he sometimes come across as calm, polite and amiable? Yes. Did he also have a foul temper and was liable to unprovoked rants where he would come across as unhinged? Yes. 

At Pompey he was intensely disliked by players, staff and supporters. His half-time talks would frequently be heard pitchside as he screamed at players, one time memorably going around the changing room and pointing at each player and screaming "****" in their faces. He was said to be bitter about what the players earned and frequently raised their salaries in rants. When he came back managing Forest he allegedly threatened to stab Dave Kitson outside the players entrance. 

He was frequently rude and aggressive to members of staff, a trait followed through at Ashton Gate, screaming at groundstaff among others. 

The latter just does not fit into modern football management and with SC it is always a matter of time before he blows up, as he did at City. Did he have legitimate grievances? Yes. Were the Lansdown family partly responsible for screwing up summer 2015? Yes. But he could have played the hand he was given much better than he did, and no offence to the revisionists but within just a couple of months LJ had turned the team around from getting pumped 3-0 at the likes of Rotherham to beating Sheff Weds 4-1 at home, guiding us to safety comfortably. 

People are mocking opposition fans' opinions of LJ. Go on some football forums - other than this one - and find me anything other than mocking and ridicule of SC. Not saying it's justified, but the reality is he has a poor reputation and that is part of the reason he has been out of work for so long.

Shrewsbury is a perfect job for him and he will do well, but let's not pretend that makes him suitable for this job right now, or that it was anything other than the right decision to sack him back in 2016.

Lots of that is in Kitson’s book, you’ve just reminded me. I read that a few years ago. Kitson certainly didn’t like him.

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1 hour ago, italian dave said:

I guess it takes our collective mind off the current one ?

 

TBH it's the deficiencies of the current regime I'm interested in. Can't do owt about the distant past.

There's at least one poster whose love of one previous manager and hatred of another is so extreme that I speculate about their mental health.

All I'll say is direct comparisons are difficult. Johnson was given the freedom to buy more players, but he also had to sell players as soon as they started to look really good.  Johnson achieved better results with much the same group of players, but he did have Lee Tomlin, who was key that half season as a crucial addition. Tomlin's arrival was not his work.

Maybe I'm odd, but I don't love one ex-manager and hate the other. They both played an important role in establishing where I think we as a club should be, the top half of the Championship.

Whether we can stay there is another - more pressing - question.  :noexp:

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4 hours ago, spudski said:

I don't think LJ coaching lacked innovation...it was more likely the opposite. He overcomplicated things, then got muddled, trying to incorporate different methods. In the process it got completely confusing...you could see it in the players...they were frozen, playing without freedom. Then after losses, pressure mounted. That made it even worse...they literally couldn't make a pass and many went hiding not wanting the ball. 

For me, it all started to go pear shape when we signed Famara. He looked to become more physical with more presence. It had a knock on effect...he tried to play the same way with a high press and energy, but didn't work. 

Then the experimenting started...buying 'clubs in the bag' for every scenario. 

We became a confused mis mash of different methods. Neither here nor there.

And we are still that way. 

I can see shape and organisation when defending...although we don't carry it out very well.

Going forward...it's all over the place. Its a guessing game. No clear direction.

Nail on the head for me.

We needed a proper experienced manager more than ever after LJ to really cement a solid playing style going forward. We appoint DH who has unfortunately just carried on the same mis mash of methods and playing styles that we had under LJ. 
 

It’s genuinely scary how plenty of people on this forum who can see the glaring problems at our club yet the imbeciles at boardroom level cannot. It baffles me man it really does.

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33 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Reid - despite some pointing out it was analysts suggestion he definitely deserves credit , though as (I think it was @Davefevshas previously suggested Reid learn a massive amount from Tammy Abraham’s season here - Remember his move upfront also coincided with him spending the whole summer.privately training to improve his physicality / conditioning so credit to the player himself as well

Let's also not forget it was S O'D who first talked about Bobby's talent. No-one likes him, but as a coach he could spot potential [see also Joe Morrell].

I don't want to take credit away from LJ - but did he get lucky with Bobby - he was played upfront because we had failed to sign a recognised striker (who LJ was still searching for) and he clicked. I doubt (this can never be proven) that LJ actually had a plan to coach him into a PL striker.

Same with Webster - he was talented before he got here - the question mark was his injury record.

For balance agree Josh did develop under LJ.

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6 minutes ago, Dullmoan Tone said:

Let's also not forget it was S O'D who first talked about Bobby's talent. No-one likes him, but as a coach he could spot potential [see also Joe Morrell].

I don't want to take credit away from LJ - but did he get lucky with Bobby - he was played upfront because we had failed to sign a recognised striker (who LJ was still searching for) and he clicked. I doubt (this can never be proven) that LJ actually had a plan to coach him into a PL striker.

Same with Webster - he was talented before he got here - the question mark was his injury record.

For balance agree Josh did develop under LJ.

I think it’s very mean to discredit LJ for those - ultimately the buck stops with the (then) current manager to play him there regardless whether Sean O’Driscoll rated Bobby Reid in 2013 or not or whether he didn’t bring in a forward.

 

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56 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

SC is mad as a box of frogs, and anyone that has spent even a short time in his company (as I have, and know others that have spent much more time with him) would tell you that. Did he sometimes come across as calm, polite and amiable? Yes. Did he also have a foul temper and was liable to unprovoked rants where he would come across as unhinged? Yes. 

At Pompey he was intensely disliked by players, staff and supporters. His half-time talks would frequently be heard pitchside as he screamed at players, one time memorably going around the changing room and pointing at each player and screaming "****" in their faces. He was said to be bitter about what the players earned and frequently raised their salaries in rants. When he came back managing Forest he allegedly threatened to stab Dave Kitson outside the players entrance. 

He was frequently rude and aggressive to members of staff, a trait followed through at Ashton Gate, screaming at groundstaff among others. 

The latter just does not fit into modern football management and with SC it is always a matter of time before he blows up, as he did at City. Did he have legitimate grievances? Yes. Were the Lansdown family partly responsible for screwing up summer 2015? Yes. But he could have played the hand he was given much better than he did, and no offence to the revisionists but within just a couple of months LJ had turned the team around from getting pumped 3-0 at the likes of Rotherham to beating Sheff Weds 4-1 at home, guiding us to safety comfortably. 

People are mocking opposition fans' opinions of LJ. Go on some football forums - other than this one - and find me anything other than mocking and ridicule of SC. Not saying it's justified, but the reality is he has a poor reputation and that is part of the reason he has been out of work for so long.

Shrewsbury is a perfect job for him and he will do well, but let's not pretend that makes him suitable for this job right now, or that it was anything other than the right decision to sack him back in 2016.

An interesting post and perspective Kid and one, not that it matters ,  that probably should be in the ‘What Would Cotterrill do with this squad’ thread

(Can only ever be theoretical as SL certainly won’t) Would I have him back ?

No , certainly not whilst we are in Championship

On the positive side what SC did was something I’ve hardly witnessed in my decades of City (GJ being another who could claim )

He turned us around, from a mess , and built a side , (With some SOD foundations ,  recruiting to a plan , and simply delivered 


Back to your post -

Did I respect what SC did here - Absolutely 

Did I ‘like him’ - I’ve said previously, personality wise  No , Not really (There has to be some like for the respect and appreciation for what he achieved )

i have neither the evidence or knowledge to dispute your post , and if I’m honest my gut feeling of my watching , listening to him is that it’s probably pretty accurate 

However that doesn’t allow for the nonsense claims that he bought League One and the unappreciation he gets from some still, for what he did here.

Moving on , Johnson was the equivalent of winning the Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory Golden Ticket and wasted a significant opportunity as SLs personal pet project to build on what SC left him.

 

Personally as an owner, or as a work colleague  , I’d rather have a SC type who I know it may be bumpy with , and that I’d have an occasional nose to nose with , than somebody who talks a good game but is full of hot air , a view that was paramount in my career I guess

(Accepting that SL is running a large business where he can’t have significant numbers of staff unhappy)

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30 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

TBH it's the deficiencies of the current regime I'm interested in. Can't do owt about the distant past.

There's at least one poster whose love of one previous manager and hatred of another is so extreme that I speculate about their mental health.

All I'll say is direct comparisons are difficult. Johnson was given the freedom to buy more players, but he also had to sell players as soon as they started to look really good.  Johnson achieved better results with much the same group of players, but he did have Lee Tomlin, who was key that half season as a crucial addition. Tomlin's arrival was not his work.

Maybe I'm odd, but I don't love one ex-manager and hate the other. They both played an important role in establishing where I think we as a club should be, the top half of the Championship.

Whether we can stay there is another - more pressing - question.  :noexp:

Two likes if I could RR!

I get that in the immediate aftermath of a game people get angry. But to still be using words like tosser and cretin about a man who left the club a year ago seems sad bordering on pathological.

Like you I don't love one or hate another: I try to take the view that any manager probably knows more about coaching and about football management than I do. That I'm not in a position to know what goes on behind the scenes. And that ultimately most managers are doing their level best for Bristol City and usually working bloody hard to do so. (The only exceptions during my 50 plus years (maybe unfairly) have been Pulis whose principal concern seemed to be money and Osman whose principal concern seemed to be himself. )

I also share your concern about the current direction of travel: we just seem to have lost any obvious strategy and to be drifting. And despite what I said above about the managers knowledge of coaching, I see us starting with a three man midfield that includes two players who've not played all season, and I see us responding to being behind by throwing on five forwards, and I do wonder!

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4 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

An interesting post and perspective Kid and one, not that it matters ,  that probably should be in the ‘What Would Cotterrill do with this squad’ thread

(Can only ever be theoretical as SL certainly won’t) Would I have him back ?

No , certainly not whilst we are in Championship

On the positive side what SC did was something I’ve hardly witnessed in my decades of City (GJ being another who could claim )

He turned us around, from a mess , and built a side , (With some SOD foundations ,  recruiting to a plan , and simply delivered 


Back to your post -

Did I respect what SC did here - Absolutely 

Did I ‘like him’ - I’ve said previously, personality wise  No , Not really (There has to be some like for the respect and appreciation for what he achieved )

i have neither the evidence or knowledge to dispute your post , and if I’m honest my gut feeling of my watching , listening to him is that it’s probably pretty accurate 

However that doesn’t allow for the nonsense claims that he bought League One and the unappreciation he gets from some still, for what he did here.

Moving on , Johnson was the equivalent of winning the Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory and wasted a significant opportunity as SLs personal pet project to build on what SC left him.

 

Personally as an owner, or as a work colleague  , I’d rather have a SC type who I know it may be bumpy with , and that I’d have an occasional nose to nose with , than somebody who talks a good game but is full of hot air

(Accepting that SL is running a large business where he can’t have significant numbers of staff unhappy)

There’s quite a bit of negativity in Kitson’s Secret Footballer book. It’s very cheap to pick up now and quite a good read so I’d recommend giving it a look.

It discusses stories from Cotterill’s time at Portsmouth and then Forest. Clearly Kitson doesn’t like Cotterill so his view is biased, but it’s still interesting reading.

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