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30 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

 

TBH it's the deficiencies of the current regime I'm interested in. Can't do owt about the distant past.

There's at least one poster whose love of one previous manager and hatred of another is so extreme that I speculate about their mental health.

All I'll say is direct comparisons are difficult. Johnson was given the freedom to buy more players, but he also had to sell players as soon as they started to look really good.  Johnson achieved better results with much the same group of players, but he did have Lee Tomlin, who was key that half season as a crucial addition. Tomlin's arrival was not his work.

Maybe I'm odd, but I don't love one ex-manager and hate the other. They both played an important role in establishing where I think we as a club should be, the top half of the Championship.

Whether we can stay there is another - more pressing - question.  :noexp:

Two likes if I could RR!

I get that in the immediate aftermath of a game people get angry. But to still be using words like tosser and cretin about a man who left the club a year ago seems sad bordering on pathological.

Like you I don't love one or hate another: I try to take the view that any manager probably knows more about coaching and about football management than I do. That I'm not in a position to know what goes on behind the scenes. And that ultimately most managers are doing their level best for Bristol City and usually working bloody hard to do so. (The only exceptions during my 50 plus years (maybe unfairly) have been Pulis whose principal concern seemed to be money and Osman whose principal concern seemed to be himself. )

I also share your concern about the current direction of travel: we just seem to have lost any obvious strategy and to be drifting. And despite what I said above about the managers knowledge of coaching, I see us starting with a three man midfield that includes two players who've not played all season, and I see us responding to being behind by throwing on five forwards, and I do wonder!

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4 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

An interesting post and perspective Kid and one, not that it matters ,  that probably should be in the ‘What Would Cotterrill do with this squad’ thread

(Can only ever be theoretical as SL certainly won’t) Would I have him back ?

No , certainly not whilst we are in Championship

On the positive side what SC did was something I’ve hardly witnessed in my decades of City (GJ being another who could claim )

He turned us around, from a mess , and built a side , (With some SOD foundations ,  recruiting to a plan , and simply delivered 


Back to your post -

Did I respect what SC did here - Absolutely 

Did I ‘like him’ - I’ve said previously, personality wise  No , Not really (There has to be some like for the respect and appreciation for what he achieved )

i have neither the evidence or knowledge to dispute your post , and if I’m honest my gut feeling of my watching , listening to him is that it’s probably pretty accurate 

However that doesn’t allow for the nonsense claims that he bought League One and the unappreciation he gets from some still, for what he did here.

Moving on , Johnson was the equivalent of winning the Willy Wonka Chocolate Factory and wasted a significant opportunity as SLs personal pet project to build on what SC left him.

 

Personally as an owner, or as a work colleague  , I’d rather have a SC type who I know it may be bumpy with , and that I’d have an occasional nose to nose with , than somebody who talks a good game but is full of hot air

(Accepting that SL is running a large business where he can’t have significant numbers of staff unhappy)

There’s quite a bit of negativity in Kitson’s Secret Footballer book. It’s very cheap to pick up now and quite a good read so I’d recommend giving it a look.

It discusses stories from Cotterill’s time at Portsmouth and then Forest. Clearly Kitson doesn’t like Cotterill so his view is biased, but it’s still interesting reading.

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To counter Kitson, there are views of Clarke Carlisle & Wilbs who absolutely loved playing for him and don't have a bad word to say about him. 

Wilbs even mentioned in that under the cosh interview that a lot of the Birmingham lads will tell you he was the reason they stayed up, not Redknapp. 

It is possible that Cotts mellowed out slightly since the stories Kitson - TSF has mentioned in books.

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1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

There’s quite a bit of negativity in Kitson’s Secret Footballer book. It’s very cheap to pick up now and quite a good read so I’d recommend giving it a look.

It discusses stories from Cotterill’s time at Portsmouth and then Forest. Clearly Kitson doesn’t like Cotterill so his view is biased, but it’s still interesting reading.

👍t

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3 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

You must have looked hard for those quotes. I went to look, out of interest, and the overall sentiment is vastly different. All of his failings we saw  here, being highlighted after 12 games there. He is just not very good and SL spent millions trying to make him look better than he was. He will be found out quicker there because he will not have that protection. Nice guy, hard working , but not a leader and number 1. 

I genuinely didn't look hard. It was the second thread I looked at - after realising that the first one immediately followed a bad result - and the first (and only) page I looked at. 

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6 hours ago, billywedlock said:

I have always blamed both SL and `SC for those events. The pair of them did not get their acts together, and lost the greatest momentum we have had in decades. The club felt great, fans were happy, the players were a solid group. They were , we were, as a club struggling to adapt. It was our biggest missed opportunity since we went to the old 1 st division. I don't think SL had any choice in the end, but I do blame SL for getting us in the situation in the first place. No one comes out of it with any credit. We will never know if SC could have kept us up. It is a non argument. But as a club we really messed up. 

But I do know Sunderland have appointed the wrong ex City manager. I am certain SC would have been perfect for them. His west country accent , sadly, will always be an issue for many. Having said ex City managers, even GJ would have been better than LJ. 

FWIW I also believe SC and Keith Burt would have done a lot lot better with the millions in transfer fees and wages that the people who came after have done. For the way the club has lost its soul and connection with the fans, I would have SC back now in a heartbeat. We need to recreate some love. Im an old fashioned football fan. I want our club back please. 

Good post.

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6 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

To counter Kitson, there are views of Clarke Carlisle & Wilbs who absolutely loved playing for him and don't have a bad word to say about him. 

Wilbs even mentioned in that under the cosh interview that a lot of the Birmingham lads will tell you he was the reason they stayed up, not Redknapp. 

It is possible that Cotts mellowed out slightly since the stories Kitson - TSF has mentioned in books.

That’s true and Kitson seems quite a firebrand character himself. It’s possible they just didn’t get on and had a personality clash.

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Ive read that secret footballer book, its some of the things in there are far fetched to say the least.

One day the writer had the squirts, so he got out in the road and went infront of everybody at roadside.

A builder wouldnt do that, let alone a prem striker.

The bit about him forgeting he bought a house in dubai was it?

I wouldnt waste your time reading that rubbish, no way a footballer wrote that,

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3 minutes ago, Oh Louie louie said:

Ive read that secret footballer book, its some of the things in there are far fetched to say the least.

One day the writer had the squirts, so he got out in the road and went infront of everybody at roadside.

A builder wouldnt do that, let alone a prem striker.

The bit about him forgeting he bought a house in dubai was it?

I wouldnt waste your time reading that rubbish, no way a footballer wrote that,

It’s generally understood to be Dave Kitson, although he’s definitely used a great deal of artistic license.

The Cotterill anecdotes aren’t particularly outrageous in the context of the book.

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16 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

You must have looked hard for those quotes. I went to look, out of interest, and the overall sentiment is vastly different. All of his failings we saw  here, being highlighted after 12 games there. He is just not very good and SL spent millions trying to make him look better than he was. He will be found out quicker there because he will not have that protection. Nice guy, hard working , but not a leader and number 1. 

He's lost 3 matches (can't count his first, he had been there for about an hour before kick-off). In the same period of time, we've lost 8.

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11 minutes ago, italian dave said:

Two likes if I could RR!

I get that in the immediate aftermath of a game people get angry. But to still be using words like tosser and cretin about a man who left the club a year ago seems sad bordering on pathological.

Like you I don't love one or hate another: I try to take the view that any manager probably knows more about coaching and about football management than I do. That I'm not in a position to know what goes on behind the scenes. And that ultimately most managers are doing their level best for Bristol City and usually working bloody hard to do so. (The only exceptions during my 50 plus years (maybe unfairly) have been Pulis whose principal concern seemed to be money and Osman whose principal concern seemed to be himself. )

I also share your concern about the current direction of travel: we just seem to have lost any obvious strategy and to be drifting. And despite what I said above about the managers knowledge of coaching, I see us starting with a three man midfield that includes two players who've not played all season, and I see us responding to being behind by throwing on five forwards, and I do wonder!

As in all walks of life , In football , there’s also lot of bluffers within football mind Dave

A lot who merely regurgitate phrases said to them or they’ve heard or been thrown at them in a FA Course

Its the ones who can actually analyse and find the remedies themselves, and man manage  that succeed - the rest get found out eventually 

You only have to listen to pundits and see how many have seen something you havnt and in some cases never would

Not many

Hoddle is the one for me - every time his understanding and identification of aspects of the game always has me in awe. 

On this forum , on various Club Podcasts there are some very astute football eyes -

IMHO we have a notable one here ,and many who make excellent points , suggestions 

There’s a lot of snobbery in football with an idea that (All) fans know nothing - that’s complete b*****x 

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17 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That’s true and Kitson seems quite a firebrand character himself. It’s possible they just didn’t get on and had a personality clash.

No, there weren't many at Pompey at that time that didn't clash with SC and you can trust me on that. The vast majority of players and staff were glad to see the back of him. It certainly wasn't just a clash or falling out with one player.

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7 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

No, there weren't many at Pompey at that time that didn't clash with SC and you can trust me on that. The vast majority of players and staff were glad to see the back of him. It certainly wasn't just a clash or falling out with one player.

Good man.  Nothing wrong with pissing off the bunch of massively overpaid bluffers they had at the time.  One suspects he called a few out and they simply didn't like it.  Kitson's a classic bluffer.  More interested in journalism than football.

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3 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

From what I remember - it was accepted that Baldock was going. Didn’t Cotterill only really spend a fee on Agard?

As for SO’D, at that time it was clear we had to cut the cloth. He inherited an expensive and ineffective squad with few assets to recoup money from. He did a LOT of crucial restructuring and made difficult decisions. He also bought in a number of players who we got extraordinary value for money from. He wasn’t popular here but deserves lots of credit imo.

He rubbed the board up the wrong way too because he said it as he saw it. 

I really do agree with this I think overall he done a fantastic job especially how much restructuring needed doing not just on first team level.

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1 hour ago, bris red said:

Nail on the head for me.

We needed a proper experienced manager more than ever after LJ to really cement a solid playing style going forward. We appoint DH who has unfortunately just carried on the same mis mash of methods and playing styles that we had under LJ. 
 

It’s genuinely scary how plenty of people on this forum who can see the glaring problems at our club yet the imbeciles at boardroom level cannot. It baffles me man it really does.

Agreed, It dumbfounds most on here. The problems with City are glaringly obvious to most. If it was a corporate biz in my world, changes would be happening FAST, but when the owner and CEO are in cahoots, then we the punters have to suffer for ages. I don’t blame DH as a lot of it he inherited. The owner finances the club massively so you have to applaud that. The CEO (Ashton) appears to be pulling the strings day to day alongside JL I assume. Which for me is the weak link.


A relegation fight next season beckons us the way we are heading. Just hope common sense prevails soon as we are heading one way currently.

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44 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

As in all walks of life , In football , there’s also lot of bluffers within football mind Dave

A lot who merely regurgitate phrases said to them or they’ve heard or been thrown at them in a FA Course

Its the ones who can actually analyse and find the remedies themselves, and man manage  that succeed - the rest get found out eventually 

You only have to listen to pundits and see how many have seen something you havnt and in some cases never would

Not many

Hoddle is the one for me - every time his understanding and identification of aspects of the game always has me in awe. 

On this forum , on various Club Podcasts there are some very astute football eyes -

IMHO we have a notable one here ,and many who make excellent points , suggestions 

There’s a lot of snobbery in football with an idea that (All) fans know nothing - that’s complete b*****x 

A genuine question, but how do you rate René Gilmartin as a pundit?

For the record, I enjoy listening to him, but I am aware there are others on this forum who can't stand him.

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10 minutes ago, GasDestroyer said:

Agreed, It dumbfounds most on here. The problems with City are glaringly obvious to most. If it was a corporate biz in my world, changes would be happening FAST, but when the owner and CEO are in cahoots, then we the punters have to suffer for ages. I don’t blame DH as a lot of it he inherited. The owner finances the club massively so you have to applaud that. The CEO (Ashton) appears to be pulling the strings day to day alongside JL I assume. Which for me is the weak link.


A relegation fight next season beckons us the way we are heading. Just hope common sense prevails soon as we are heading one way currently.

Well said GD.

Much as I thought it was time for Lee to go, and that I liked Holden’s opening dozen games, the trend was downward for quite a while, and somehow results hid that.  I don’t think performances would’ve been quite as bad under Lee as some under Dean, but I think we’d be staring the same trend in the face, a team around mid-table not able to bridge the gap for a long enough period.  I think ultimately by the end of this season, had Lee been in charge we would be wondering why we can’t progress.  By next season with the financial trend of our accounts, Lee would be cutting a disillusioned figure wondering why he had nothing left to spend.

As you say the CEO has had a huge impact on that downward trend.  Johnson had peak resources, both in personnel and finances.  At this peak he wasn’t a million miles away.  A shrewd DOF in Jan 2018 might’ve made the difference....at least for a play-off position.

Holden or Johnson this season would’ve felt the squeeze, by next season it would be even worse.  The legacy of a man’s appointment in Jan 2016 (Ashton) is that 5 and a bit years later is club going downhill in all but results, which look like they’re finally catch up.

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3 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

A genuine question, but how do you rate René Gilmartin as a pundit?

For the record, I enjoy listening to him, but I am aware there are others on this forum who can't stand him.

For me, great insight, just that as it’s on tv, you can let the pictures unfold, rather than describe it all.

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18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

For me, great insight, just that as it’s on tv, you can let the pictures unfold, rather than describe it all.

A fair comment.

There is a world of difference (and commentary/punditry requirements) in watching a live football match and listening to a cricket Test Match - Brian Johnston and/or John Arlott would be wasted on Robins Live 😉.

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3 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Not sure I'd agree.

In the last 20 years we've spent 12 of them in the Championship. 12 of the last 15 years in fact. I'd argue our current relative place IS the Championship.

Last time here we finished 4th, 10th, 10th, 15th, 20th, then 24th... So actually better than our current stint of 18th, 17th, 11th, 8th, 12th.

I think we are where we should be, and where our expenditure should have us - which makes me ask what the rest is adding (coaches, setup, world class recruitment) if we're just doing what's expected?

You're right, but of course the 11th and 8th place seasons we were up and around the top 6 for most of the season til the last few weeks (unless I'm remembering badly) Excluding the playoff season, LJ also picked up more points in those seasons despite finishing lower. 61 was enough for one of those 10th but 67 earned LJ 11th.

Our current place probably is the Championship, but when LJ came in it wasn't, we'd only spent 7 years out of the previous 20 at this level. We were sliding back out of the league. We;ve had 6 more seasons at this level because of what he achieved here and did it playing decent football a lot of the time.

GJ did a massive job getting us up and that playoff final season, but it was a relative high point in our modern history of being a Div 3 club. We went back down and it was a huge effort from SC to win the league in the way we did. That didn't suddenly make us deserving of a playoff place - again LJs time here turned us into playoff contenders.

The way I look at it as someone in my 30s is I grew up watching a team constantly try to get out of the 3rd division, occasionally managing it but coming straight back down. We had a couple of years of high with GJ but after that first season up we looked shit. You could even argue we rode huge amounts of luck that playoff final season. I never really considered us as "established" as I was always waiting for the drop, until this second time around when we've actually looked like we belong here now and a stadium to match.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

A genuine question, but how do you rate René Gilmartin as a pundit?

For the record, I enjoy listening to him, but I am aware there are others on this forum who can't stand him.

I find him a bit irritating Phil 

Seems a nice guy but insightful (To a hot level )  ?

Not particularly IMHO

Theres a poster in here who I would say is moreso

 

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4 hours ago, cityloyal473 said:

Fair points but I disagree.

When LJ took over we were in the Championship, when he left we were in the Championship, albeit higher up. Expectations throughout - aided and abetted by LJ/SL etc. - (lets not forget Europe in five years also) was play offs at worst and outright promotion at best.  He failed on all counts.  

Yes I'll give you that, he helped elevate expectations with his words and SL too but I look at it as a realist as opposed to what they told us. Dont forget DH is expected to progress us. A lot of what SL says about ambition and expectation is over the top

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25 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

I find him a bit irritating Phil 

Seems a nice guy but insightful (To a hot level )  ?

Not particularly IMHO

Theres a poster in here who I would say is moreso

 

On the assumption that we are thinking of the same poster, you may well be right, although my limited tactical knowledge precludes me from offering any sensible comment.

From my (again limited) football experience, RG just seems to explain things as I see them.

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8 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

It might be accepted in the "soft south", but that kind of double speak BS won't wash there !

" I divna ken what he's on aboot, man "

 

I did think that when he took the job, despite their fall from high Sunderland are a big club in terms of fan base and history. Sunderland is a very working class place, much deprived and a poor neighbour of Newcastle. I loved the straightforwardness of their fans when I was up there. I’m surprised it has taken them this long to get annoyed about the type of thing LJ likes people to listen to.

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26 minutes ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

On the assumption that we are thinking of the same poster, you may well be right, although my limited tactical knowledge precludes me from offering any sensible comment.

From my (again limited) football experience, RG just seems to explain things as I see them.

I think he’s interesting for many Phil

I was thinking of pundits or posters !  (Hoddle my star example - Gary Neville Good too ) that see things that %99 do not )

Im sure Hoddle must seem very insightful even too many , if not most , League managers and coaches 

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8 hours ago, Fordy62 said:

To be fair, you’d struggle to find *any* manager who couldn’t achieve a mid table finish if he was allowed to increase the wage bill from 13m to 37m. When you look at it like that, I’m not sure establishing us as a mid table side is quite so impressive. 

Exactly. A really good manager could keep a club mid table with a small budget - eg Mick McCarthy. He kept Ipswich in the Championship with a very limited budget. Some of the supporters didn’t  like the style of football and wanted him to go. He went and they are now in League 1 

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9 hours ago, billywedlock said:

I have always blamed both SL and `SC for those events. The pair of them did not get their acts together, and lost the greatest momentum we have had in decades. The club felt great, fans were happy, the players were a solid group. They were , we were, as a club struggling to adapt. It was our biggest missed opportunity since we went to the old 1 st division. I don't think SL had any choice in the end, but I do blame SL for getting us in the situation in the first place. No one comes out of it with any credit. We will never know if SC could have kept us up. It is a non argument. But as a club we really messed up. 

But I do know Sunderland have appointed the wrong ex City manager. I am certain SC would have been perfect for them. His west country accent , sadly, will always be an issue for many. Having said ex City managers, even GJ would have been better than LJ. 

FWIW I also believe SC and Keith Burt would have done a lot lot better with the millions in transfer fees and wages that the people who came after have done. For the way the club has lost its soul and connection with the fans, I would have SC back now in a heartbeat. We need to recreate some love. Im an old fashioned football fan. I want our club back please. 

Cotts has already been sacked once by Sunderland when he was assistant to Howard Wilkinson

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8 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

Wasn't that because the fan was giving Mark Little abuse and Cotts was standing up for him? I have heard that mentioned somewhere, I could be wrong.

I suspect Cotts knew the writing was on the wall from the summer onwards… It's difficult to glean absolute perspective as an outsider but I think both SL and SC could have behaved differently/better. Perhaps SL was intent on bringing in MA anyway…?

Okay thanks- that's more acceptable then, suppose it wasn't a good look for the club on top of everything else that was going on at the time is how they might have seen it.

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