Holden - sack or keep?

[maxjak]

7 hours ago, sglosbcfc said:

No other team in the Championship has lost close to the number of first team players we have lost, for the time periods we have lost them, fact.

I appreciate that they have a better quality and larger squad..........but just as an example, Norwich on the 1st of December had 13 player out injured, 10 of them long term issues. I am sure if i looked into it there would be other clubs with long lists of injured players.  It is a bit of a fallacy that we are the only team with major injury problems. My point being........it is not a fact?

[A Horse With No Name]

13 minutes ago, DT The Optimist said:

 

DH has a one year deal ?  He has to improve us. If we finish lower half then I suspect his contract will not be renewed ? the merry go round starts again  Thanks for your effort...but he has said, and I agree, that we emerge next year with the well known regulars available  again, the picture will look a lot better.  I agree with that. Judge him when the 10 missing first teamers  are available again..

His contract is being renewed every single day. Its a rolling one year contract, so will never be more or less than 1 year.

[Jeez]

It’s like DH is too worried about his job now to be brave enough to play the youngsters off the bench.

He’s almost wishing the ball to fall to Martin or Wells for a finish but we need to be more creative in the build up instead of hoping to score a goal.

We don’t know what’s being said behind the scenes but this where the experience kicks in or if not experienced new ideas are applied.

I don’t think the assistant coaches seem like the type to get the team pumped up, so this gonna be all down to DH.

[City oz]

3 minutes ago, The Horse With No Name said:

His contract is being renewed every single day. Its a rolling one year contract, so will never be more or less than 1 year.

I was one of the original DH knockers and i still cant believe Lansdown and the board appointed DH. They kept all of us hanging on rumours  on possible candidates and we all know some of them are famous and have proven records. DH was on holiday at the time and soon as he got back he was appointed. Most on here accepted it and we started the season quite well. But look at us now same as last season at the same exact time. It’s a joke. Lansdown and the board has let the supporters down again. Especially for you die hard city supporters in the UK where you are having a hard time than most other countries around Covid and you all deserve a manager to take the team into the Prem.

[LoyalRed]

1 minute ago, City oz said:

I was one of the original DH knockers and i still cant believe Lansdown and the board appointed DH. They kept all of us hanging on rumours  on possible candidates and we all know some of them are famous and have proven records. DH was on holiday at the time and soon as he got back he was appointed. Most on here accepted it and we started the season quite well. But look at us now same as last season at the same exact time. It’s a joke. Lansdown and the board has let the supporters down again. Especially for you die hard city supporters in the UK where you are having a hard time than most other countries around Covid and you all deserve a manager to take the team into the Prem.

Is that true ? 
 

DH was on holiday at the time and soon as he got back he wasappointed.

[YGBjammy]

So considering injuries, we have a worse squad than last season (most new signings are injured, as well as some of our old players) and yet people are outraged now we are sat in 9th?

Obviously I want to do well and get in the playoffs, but so do probably 12 other teams at least, we have no God given right to be in the top 6.

You can argue that DH wasn't the right appointment but we owe it to him to give him a proper chance, not scream for his sacking after a few losses. We're only in December.

Some of you would clearly enjoy a "winner stays on" manager policy, and as soon as we lose a game they're out on their arse

[City oz]

2 minutes ago, LoyalRed said:

Is that true ? 
 

DH was on holiday at the time and soon as he got back he wasappointed.

Well he new he had the job when on holiday. He got back, went to BS3 and the b&* s(&^ t we were given in the media that we were going to get a world class coach went out the window,

[Jeez]

20 minutes ago, DT The Optimist said:

This is a wonderful thread. Rather than be called ‘Holden out ‘ could have been called ‘Living in cloud cuckoo land’.

After the start to the season when 5 games had obtained 15 points OTIB was gushing with praise for DH, and so many people were openly admitting they were eating great dollops of humble pie regarding his appointment. 
 Now after one bad run, with pretty crap football admitted, the same posters have flipped ?  I am not a happy clapper  by any means ,but last night the second half was so much better, but  balanced by the appalling first half. And the ‘staff’ have got to look at that. Why were we set up so badly first half... Gary Owers asked that in not so many words on Radio Bristol saying the forwards in Martin and Wells should be playing up top... but were getting no service..  the changes he suggested all happened at half time.  Then we played. 

The start of the season we got away with more than a few results. Coventry ran rings round us on day one, apart from last 20 minutes, Forest battered us and Bentley performed heroics,  more recently QPR  the same...... and so on.

so the truth is somewhere in the middle of all this....

DH has a one year deal ?  He has to improve us. If we finish lower half then I suspect his contract will not be renewed ? the merry go round starts again  Thanks for your effort...but he has said, and I agree, that we emerge next year with the well known regulars available  again, the picture will look a lot better.  I agree with that. Judge him when the 10 missing first teamers  are available again..

Agree it’s a bit of a statement headline and very early in a managers reign to be seeing it. What is surprising is that despite the massive injury list it’s probably got a 50/50 divide in opinion on here. 

I think he’ll be given support in the window & will be in charge the rest of the season as long as we’re safe, but I think like most that he doesn’t seem to be following up on the approach he’d sold us & the board.

 

[One Team]

5 hours ago, Olé said:

I do agree SL has a track record of hiring people who would get a job nowhere else, and as I've always said, no reflection on the individuals themselves, as it's massively self indulgent of SL and SL alone because it affords him an influence he admitted to under LJ, and will never easily surrender.

With that said, I do feel sorry for Holden. I don't say that easily, I honestly felt hollowed out inside today - nearest to that for me was blowing a 2-0 lead in the rain at Barnsley on a Friday night last season after lots of effort to make it, so I'm not casually backing Holden without perspective.

Today was cruel. Preston exercised their full Alex Neil routine to good effect - regular arm waving collapses yet somehow combined with hypocritical affront to sway the referee if ever the aggressor instead. Talk about cake and eat it. It doesn't excuse our own quality but exacerbates our misery.

To be honest competition for places was a huge catalyst for our results under Holden early in the season - better players all fighting to start is lightyears from what we have now. But that run and accompanying honesty and honour in managing City has earned him goodwill, with me included.

Never mind that the football is now as non-existent and clueless as LJ's worst spells. Combine the sympathy for Deano earned from his heady start as manager, AND getting mugged off by streetwise teams like Preston, and you have a perfect (or toxic?) combination of injustice that really hurts.

I guess what I'm saying is I'm simultaneously aware now that DH is not the messiah nor a particularly qualified coach at this level and that this could quickly become a painfully LONG season, while also acknowledging that he deserves some sympathy, and is dealing with unprecedented challenges.

And isn't that the perfect analogy for our club? Plucky lower tier side where we're going to end up feeling sorry for someone with little chance of taking us anywhere and where we're happy simply because he showed some emotion doing it - or more simply: we're happy as gallant also rans with excuses.

Good post @Olé mate, well said.

The points regarding SL’s self indulgence ring true with me. No other club in the Championship, perhaps even the football league would’ve appointed him, exactly as was said for Millen and Tinnion.

This self indulgence will mean he won’t sack him now or anytime soon. I cannot see him admitting he’s made yet another mistake already.

I was genuinely shocked at his appointment, perhaps I shouldn’t have been, but once he was wanted him to succeed. Unfortunately it’s already looking like it’s failing. 

[One Team]

13 minutes ago, City oz said:

I was one of the original DH knockers and i still cant believe Lansdown and the board appointed DH. They kept all of us hanging on rumours  on possible candidates and we all know some of them are famous and have proven records. DH was on holiday at the time and soon as he got back he was appointed. Most on here accepted it and we started the season quite well. But look at us now same as last season at the same exact time. It’s a joke. Lansdown and the board has let the supporters down again. Especially for you die hard city supporters in the UK where you are having a hard time than most other countries around Covid and you all deserve a manager to take the team into the Prem.

If he was sacked I have got absolutely no faith whatsoever the right appointment would be made to replace him.

[City oz]

1 minute ago, One Team said:

If he was sacked I have got absolutely no faith whatsoever the right appointment would be made to replace him.

There were other options five months ago and therefore there would be other options now. If in fact maybe better ones. 

I have been waiting for Prem football to return  at the gate since the 70,s. Those  were the greatest years at Ashton gate and those that of us could afford it traveling away to see City play at some of the biggest stadiums in the UK. 

I remember last year when back and the game at home against Blackburn which to me last season was the turning point of failure. I remember a bloke sat next to me in the Lansdown stand and he was confident that last season was the season we were going to get promoted. I remember saying to him we are not ready yet and maybe one or two more seasons. He was disappointed at my comment and I always think back on that moment.

we then had three or four months of LJ talking crap and telling us what he thought we needed to hear and not what we wanted.

we then went into a phase where LJ left and the hype and pomp and the media highlighted potential head coaches around the globe that were short listed for the position and what did we end up getting?

[cityloyal473]

He isn't going anywhere unfortunately.  And if he did, what would be the point - we'd only appoint another inexperienced Lansdown lap dog.  Owning up to this failure would finally have fans looking at where the REAL problem lays.  And we can't have that can we. 

[Nogbad the Bad]

35 minutes ago, City oz said:

I was one of the original DH knockers and i still cant believe Lansdown and the board appointed DH. They kept all of us hanging on rumours  on possible candidates and we all know some of them are famous and have proven records. DH was on holiday at the time and soon as he got back he was appointed. Most on here accepted it and we started the season quite well. But look at us now same as last season at the same exact time. It’s a joke. Lansdown and the board has let the supporters down again. Especially for you die hard city supporters in the UK where you are having a hard time than most other countries around Covid and you all deserve a manager to take the team into the Prem.

I don't think we 'deserve a manager to take the team to the prem'. We're a bloody tough club for any manager to get promoted so we've no right to that at all.

What we do deserve is a competent experienced manager who creates a solid team that attempts to play exciting football, and doesn't leave us feeling nauseous and deflated with such poor fare on the pitch

Basically someone who ensures our passion for Bristol City F.C. does not wane and doesn't leave us feeling frustrated and embarrassed watching the club.

Nobody actually expects promotion, surely, so if we're going to be a mid table Championship club waiting for that golden season for God's sake get a few shots in and give us some football to get enthused about.

 

[City oz]

7 minutes ago, cityloyal473 said:

He isn't going anywhere unfortunately.  And if he did, what would be the point - we'd only appoint another inexperienced Lansdown lap dog.  Owning up to this failure would finally have fans looking at where the REAL problem lays.  And we can't have that can we. 

I dont think Lansdown would dare employing another lap dog. DH needs to go for the better of the club and his own future.

 Lansdown is surely aware of his very bad mistake by now.

We all know where the real problem lays and its a bit like Trump seeing the truth, not excepting it at first but however facing up to true facts in the end. 

i just hope something happens by end of this month and the board doesn’t leave it to Easter as because then we will still be an average championship side in a “normal” mid table position and not going any where.

This will then get a kick on effect in our major sponsors and future games being screened live on sky sports.

 

[Mr Hankey]

57 minutes ago, Red Alert said:

I don’t think the assistant coaches seem like the type to get the team pumped up, so this gonna be all down to DH.

This is one of the major worries for me it we get stuck in a bad run, it’s one thing being able to motivate a group of 17-19 year olds playing for their national teams, but when a failed Cheltenham Town manager and failed Stockport County manager try and get the likes of Kalas, Wells & Martin ect fired up? I just dont see it working.

[BCFC Grim]

59 minutes ago, YGBjammy said:

So considering injuries, we have a worse squad than last season (most new signings are injured, as well as some of our old players) and yet people are outraged now we are sat in 9th?

Obviously I want to do well and get in the playoffs, but so do probably 12 other teams at least, we have no God given right to be in the top 6.

You can argue that DH wasn't the right appointment but we owe it to him to give him a proper chance, not scream for his sacking after a few losses. We're only in December.

Some of you would clearly enjoy a "winner stays on" manager policy, and as soon as we lose a game they're out on their arse

Outraged at sitting 9th? Or utterly disappointed at playing awful football? That even when we did win wasn't THAT much better. 

Along with Sheffield Wednesday, we've had the least amount of shots at goal. 

A couple of people said at least he says it how it is. Does he? Said when appointed he wants to play front foot football? Nope.

Said last night it was an even first half. Utter bullshit. 

After Millwall said it was a big improvement on Rotherham. Woopey ******* doo. 

He is slowly going down the Johnson road of spouting rubbish after every loss.

I get our squad isnt top 6, but he isn't even given us a chance with his set up and negative football.

 

[BCFC Grim]

15 minutes ago, Mr Hankey said:

This is one of the major worries for me it we get stuck in a bad run, it’s one thing being able to motivate a group of 17-19 year olds playing for their national teams, but when a failed Cheltenham Town manager and failed Stockport County manager try and get the likes of Kalas, Wells & Martin ect fired up? I just dont see it working.

I laugh everytime I read failed Stockport County manager. Remarkable that they were thought to be the answer.

I laugh now, but when Holden does eventually go, the pair will most likely be appointed. 

[M.D]

We won't appoint a quality manager/head coach because of the structure in place at the top level of the club, they won't want to come here because they will not have the control they need to make this club successful.

[sglosbcfc]

1 hour ago, maxjak said:

I appreciate that they have a better quality and larger squad..........but just as an example, Norwich on the 1st of December had 13 player out injured, 10 of them long term issues. I am sure if i looked into it there would be other clubs with long lists of injured players.  It is a bit of a fallacy that we are the only team with major injury problems. My point being........it is not a fact?

Well all the 'experts' are saying the same thing, City have been affected to a greater extent than any other club. They were making exactly that point on sky only yesterday

[mozo]

The injury crisis is clearly a factor and Holden will be stressing that to the powers above him.

But looking at the squad last night, he still had a top goalkeeper at this level. Our big money signing in Kalas. Loads of experience in Rowe and Hunt. Established internationals in Nagy and O'Dowda. Up front we had the most experienced front two City has had for many a year in Martin and Wells. 

Off the bench came two of our brightest prospects in Bakinson and Semenyo, and we also had an experienced Premier League campaigner in Mariappa. 

So that's 11 players, covering all positions, that should be able to put in good performances against struggling Championship sides.

Fair enough, fatigue and knocks might come into play (have we rotated enough?).

But there's no excuse for sloppy defending, persistent mis-placed passes, zero threat on goal and the penalties, red cards and general incompetence. 

We're not plucky losers at the moment, we're abject. 

If we're not creating chances, we should be able to shut up shop. If we can't keep clean sheets, we should have strategies for creating overloads and applying pressure.

It's worrying.

 

[M.D]

3 minutes ago, mozo said:

The injury crisis is clearly a factor and Holden will be stressing that to the powers above him.

But looking at the squad last night, he still had a top goalkeeper at this level. Our big money signing in Kalas. Loads of experience in Rowe and Hunt. Established internationals in Nagy and O'Dowda. Up front we had the most experienced front two City has had for many a year in Martin and Wells. 

Off the bench came two of our brightest prospects in Bakinson and Semenyo, and we also had an experienced Premier League campaigner in Mariappa. 

So that's 11 players, covering all positions, that should be able to put in good performances against struggling Championship sides.

Fair enough, fatigue and knocks might come into play (have we rotated enough?).

But there's no excuse for sloppy defending, persistent mis-placed passes, zero threat on goal and the penalties, red cards and general incompetence. 

We're not plucky losers at the moment, we're abject. 

If we're not creating chances, we should be able to shut up shop. If we can't keep clean sheets, we should have strategies for creating overloads and applying pressure.

It's worrying.

 

Good post and worryingly true

[QuedgeRed]

22 minutes ago, mozo said:

The injury crisis is clearly a factor and Holden will be stressing that to the powers above him.

But looking at the squad last night, he still had a top goalkeeper at this level. Our big money signing in Kalas. Loads of experience in Rowe and Hunt. Established internationals in Nagy and O'Dowda. Up front we had the most experienced front two City has had for many a year in Martin and Wells. 

Off the bench came two of our brightest prospects in Bakinson and Semenyo, and we also had an experienced Premier League campaigner in Mariappa. 

So that's 11 players, covering all positions, that should be able to put in good performances against struggling Championship sides.

Fair enough, fatigue and knocks might come into play (have we rotated enough?).

But there's no excuse for sloppy defending, persistent mis-placed passes, zero threat on goal and the penalties, red cards and general incompetence. 

We're not plucky losers at the moment, we're abject. 

If we're not creating chances, we should be able to shut up shop. If we can't keep clean sheets, we should have strategies for creating overloads and applying pressure.

It's worrying.

 

Motivate the majority of those players to play better than their opponents would be relatively easy for a good football manager.

Unfortunately we don’t posses one.

Even during our wins this season, this isn’t happening. 

[City1984]

2 hours ago, maxjak said:

Great to hear some analysis from you, and good points, well made..............i think we all really miss your away reports, you were always my default setting for how we had truthfully   performed, rather than the journo bluster from everywhere else?

Have to agree with this. Give ole a commentary job on robins tv I say

[ScottishRed]

54 minutes ago, mozo said:

The injury crisis is clearly a factor and Holden will be stressing that to the powers above him.

But looking at the squad last night, he still had a top goalkeeper at this level. Our big money signing in Kalas. Loads of experience in Rowe and Hunt. Established internationals in Nagy and O'Dowda. Up front we had the most experienced front two City has had for many a year in Martin and Wells. 

Off the bench came two of our brightest prospects in Bakinson and Semenyo, and we also had an experienced Premier League campaigner in Mariappa. 

So that's 11 players, covering all positions, that should be able to put in good performances against struggling Championship sides.

Fair enough, fatigue and knocks might come into play (have we rotated enough?).

But there's no excuse for sloppy defending, persistent mis-placed passes, zero threat on goal and the penalties, red cards and general incompetence. 

We're not plucky losers at the moment, we're abject. 

If we're not creating chances, we should be able to shut up shop. If we can't keep clean sheets, we should have strategies for creating overloads and applying pressure.

It's worrying.

 

Excellent post.

The situation we are in is very concerning but no surprise. I think DH is a decent man but he is not a decent head coach yet, he may well become one but is far away from that currently. As for his assistants they have made no obvious difference and we may of well kept LJ for all the difference it has made.

I am starting to get concerned that we may end up in a relegation battle as I don’t see where our next win is coming from.

[Dan24]

This is arguably the most ridiculous post I've seen on this forum. The man has 9 first team players out, most of which would start. Are you expecting us to win with that injury list? Just look at the state of our bench last night. We've got no creative midfielders available and Bakinson couldn't control a thermostat. Get behind Holden, with the squad he's got available he's done a good job so far, and let's all be honest he's much more likeable than the previous. 

[Dan24]

 

 

14 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

Excellent post.

The situation we are in is very concerning but no surprise. I think DH is a decent man but he is not a decent head coach yet, he may well become one but is far away from that currently. As for his assistants they have made no obvious difference and we may of well kept LJ for all the difference it has made.

I am starting to get concerned that we may end up in a relegation battle as I don’t see where our next win is coming from.

Why are people so negative? You'd think reading forum posts on OTIB we were bottom 4, not just outside the play-offs. Granted we're on a poor run that needs to end.

We've got no creativity in midfield with our injuries. There is barely any chance for rotation with 9 players out - most of which would start. To say we'll end up in a relegation battle is silly, when we get a few numbers back in midfield our performances will improve. You can't expect even the very top teams to perform with such a long injury list which allows for little rotation in this busy season.

Stick with Holden, no point berating him now when there's little he can do to change the team around at the moment.

[City1984]

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

It’s not just the players injured but the ones who aren’t and are expected to play Tuesday night and Friday night at 100 miles an hour and now under severe pressure to deliver results.

It is far from ideal. 
 

 

This is the bit I think is getting overlooked by some. 
 

[cityloyal473]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

The injury crisis is clearly a factor and Holden will be stressing that to the powers above him.

But looking at the squad last night, he still had a top goalkeeper at this level. Our big money signing in Kalas. Loads of experience in Rowe and Hunt. Established internationals in Nagy and O'Dowda. Up front we had the most experienced front two City has had for many a year in Martin and Wells. 

Off the bench came two of our brightest prospects in Bakinson and Semenyo, and we also had an experienced Premier League campaigner in Mariappa. 

So that's 11 players, covering all positions, that should be able to put in good performances against struggling Championship sides.

Fair enough, fatigue and knocks might come into play (have we rotated enough?).

But there's no excuse for sloppy defending, persistent mis-placed passes, zero threat on goal and the penalties, red cards and general incompetence. 

We're not plucky losers at the moment, we're abject. 

If we're not creating chances, we should be able to shut up shop. If we can't keep clean sheets, we should have strategies for creating overloads and applying pressure.

It's worrying.

 

We don't have an iota of a game plan.  No nouse.  Stevie Wonder could see that 'roughing' us up will win you the game. Thats what Millwall, Rotherham and Preston have done.  DH should have been able to nullify this - its a consistent theme.  How can we have faith in DH when he can be tactically outsmarted by Garry Rowett?  Another farcical appointment that will set us back, again. 

[maxjak]

1 hour ago, sglosbcfc said:

Well all the 'experts' are saying the same thing, City have been affected to a greater extent than any other club. They were making exactly that point on sky only yesterday

Well if all the Experts are saying it............then obviously it must be true ?

[Red-Robbo]

We need a hero, I'm Holden out for a hero...