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Holden - sack or keep?


Major Isewater

Holden - sack or keep?   

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5 minutes ago, samo II said:

He’s clearly a ‘Covid carry’ appointment.

A 12 month rolling contact and the signings he’s made (ie mainly short term deals or young players with potential) suggests to me the club made the decision to keep a bit of continuity by going with someone internal but not go ‘all-in’ while the scenario in terms of finance and future changes was uncertain.

I have actually come around to this explanation of the Holden appointment.

We clearly were interested in appointing a proper manager because we enquired as to Gerrard's potential interest and interviewed Hughton and Cook on more than one occasion. But I think after days and weeks of deliberating, given the circumstances brought about by covid, we felt it best to give Holden this season and "go again" properly next season. Most recently, the biggest clue IMO was Ashton telling Geoff Twentyman that we hadn't offered deals to any of the out of contract players, including senior pro's like Paterson, Hunt and Weimann.

This suggests to me that we are preparing to clear the decks for a big change this summer. Also consider the training ground will be complete and is a great asset to be able to sell to prospective managers. 

This optimism that Holden will be replaced this summer with a "proper" manager is obviously tempered by the fact that it will still be SL and MA doing the decision-making. 

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2 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I have actually come around to this explanation of the Holden appointment.

We clearly were interested in appointing a proper manager because we enquired as to Gerrard's potential interest and interviewed Hughton and Cook on more than one occasion. But I think after days and weeks of deliberating, given the circumstances brought about by covid, we felt it best to give Holden this season and "go again" properly next season. Most recently, the biggest clue IMO was Ashton telling Geoff Twentyman that we hadn't offered deals to any of the out of contract players, including senior pro's like Paterson, Hunt and Weimann.

This suggests to me that we are preparing to clear the decks for a big change this summer. Also consider the training ground will be complete and is a great asset to be able to sell to prospective managers. 

This optimism that Holden will be replaced this summer with a "proper" manager is obviously tempered by the fact that it will still be SL and MA doing the decision-making. 

We've got Watford, Reading and Barnsley in the next 9 days so Holden best get an astonishing winning streak going!

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The club is the same as it was 18 months ago, 2 assistants aside, but with a coach with even less experience.

IMO , if I was I Steve Lansdown, I'd let Ashton concentrate on business and money matters. I'd bring in a DoF to be the link between Coach and Board. I would look at the recruitment from top to bottom and I would bring in an experienced Head Coach that wouldn't have to learn on the job. 
Mr L is an experienced business man, he shouldn't be put off employing someone with his own opinions , we need a strong manager he shouldn't worry about appointing one. I'd say Paul Cook looks like a good fit for where we are and where SL wants us to be. 

I'd hope that Lansdown could see that the Club is a bit of a mess, and it appears we are doing the same things over and over. Except now we don't have the players to sale to take the pressure off or to bring success.

Steve, it's over to you. 

 

Only my opinion Robbored.

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

and that’s exactly my point - why bother to set up polls like this?        :dunno:

Why bother with a ******* forum ??

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6 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

This optimism that Holden will be replaced this summer with a "proper" manager is obviously tempered by the fact that it will still be SL and MA doing the decision-making. 

and a big rebuild with the same old recruitment set up.

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9 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I have actually come around to this explanation of the Holden appointment.

We clearly were interested in appointing a proper manager because we enquired as to Gerrard's potential interest and interviewed Hughton and Cook on more than one occasion. But I think after days and weeks of deliberating, given the circumstances brought about by covid, we felt it best to give Holden this season and "go again" properly next season. Most recently, the biggest clue IMO was Ashton telling Geoff Twentyman that we hadn't offered deals to any of the out of contract players, including senior pro's like Paterson, Hunt and Weimann.

This suggests to me that we are preparing to clear the decks for a big change this summer. Also consider the training ground will be complete and is a great asset to be able to sell to prospective managers. 

This optimism that Holden will be replaced this summer with a "proper" manager is obviously tempered by the fact that it will still be SL and MA doing the decision-making. 

Makes sense.

If Holden goes I wouldn’t be surprised if they try and sell the club to someone like Lampard factoring in all that. 

Lansdown clearly likes the idea of it (Gerrard) and coincidentally both were in the England side when Lansdown and JL followed England in the 2006 WC.

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2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Sack him now, keep him or let the season fizzle out and reassess at the end of the season with a view to replacing him? 

 

I've gone for option 3 because above you say 'with a view to replacing him', rather than just 'reassess' as in the poll.

Little point in sacking him now imo - we'll just be left with Simpson and Downing picking the team - but plans should be in place to install a new man as soon as the final ball is kicked. 

Having said that if we could get Cook I'd make the change immediately.

 

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7 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I've gone for option 3 because above you say 'with a view to replacing him', rather than just 'reassess' as in the poll.

Little point in sacking him now imo - we'll just be left with Simpson and Downing picking the team - but plans should be in place to install a new man as soon as the final ball is kicked. 

Having said that if we could get Cook I'd make the change immediately.

 

Yep, short poll options generally better as they allow people to expand further.

Completely agree on Cook but have a feeling that ship has sailed if true about summer.

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53 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Holdens now been in charge (as permanent manager) for 28 league games. I’ve been watching City since the 80’s. The only other manager I can recall such a groundswell against after that time was Pulis. 

The other candidates would be Benny and SO’D - however with Benny, there was sympathy that he came into a job he didn’t want to do (and blooded kids - more than DH). With SO’D, I think people understood what he was trying to do. I don’t recall (even though Benny was pre internet) people being as down on him at that time.

The only one I recall the fan base being so overwhelming in favour of the manager going at this stage was Pulis. And again, that wasn’t about results. That was about the quality of the football and the negative way of playing.

Theres a lesson there somewhere 

Worth saying that, under Benny, we were insanely unlucky sometimes (somehow drawing a game against top of table West Brom, at Hawthorns, despite dominating) and occasionally played some of the best football ive seen in my time watching City. I don't think Benny was the joker he is remembered as. 

Worst football was toss up between Pulis and SoD. Although McInnes also very bad. And the Danny Wilson football wasn't the freeflowing Brazil ball that people seem to remember. TBH it's probably easier to highlight when we played good football - the back three under Cotts., A few of those seasons under GJ and the early seasons under LJ. That's it, no?

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42 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

Worth saying that, under Benny, we were insanely unlucky sometimes (somehow drawing a game against top of table West Brom, at Hawthorns, despite dominating) and occasionally played some of the best football ive seen in my time watching City. I don't think Benny was the joker he is remembered as. 

Worst football was toss up between Pulis and SoD. Although McInnes also very bad. And the Danny Wilson football wasn't the freeflowing Brazil ball that people seem to remember. TBH it's probably easier to highlight when we played good football - the back three under Cotts., A few of those seasons under GJ and the early seasons under LJ. That's it, no?

na. Football with Jordan at the helm was very watchable

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If we were playing some nice football with more imagination and adventure and we were to finish mid table I would be happy with that, however our style of play is dreadful with no signs that we have the manager to improve it or get the best out what is a talented top 10 squad.

I really hope we make the right decision and sack him before we continue to move backwards as we are and it is too late to address the slump.

I would also love Ashton to go with him.

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If we were playing some nice football with more imagination and adventure and we were to finish mid table I would be happy with that, however our style of play is dreadful with no signs that we have the manager to improve it or get the best out what is a talented top 10 squad.

I really hope we make the right decision and sack him before we continue to move backwards as we are and it is too late to address the slump.

I would also love Ashton to go with him.

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I've only watched us a few times, but it's been pretty dire. However, the injuries, etc have been a nightmare - and we really need to get to the bottom of the reasons for this.

It's tricky to judge the management team given the injuries - however, it IS the manager's job to work with what (s)he has, and do the best - plenty of managers have to deal with crises.

I'm not convinced that the players are on board, and I'm not convinced that Holden can turn us around. As others have said, if we were playing brightly despite results, then it wouldn't be such an issue; but frankly, we look bereft of ideas.

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1 hour ago, the1stknowle said:

Worth saying that, under Benny, we were insanely unlucky sometimes (somehow drawing a game against top of table West Brom, at Hawthorns, despite dominating) and occasionally played some of the best football ive seen in my time watching City. I don't think Benny was the joker he is remembered as. 

Worst football was toss up between Pulis and SoD. Although McInnes also very bad. And the Danny Wilson football wasn't the freeflowing Brazil ball that people seem to remember. TBH it's probably easier to highlight when we played good football - the back three under Cotts., A few of those seasons under GJ and the early seasons under LJ. That's it, no?

It's horses for courses, remember that pitches have improved immeasurably over the last twenty years; compared to when I started going to AG regularly (early '80s) it's like night and day, which impacts on the football.

I remember us playing some joyous stuff under Cooper (charge! Everyone attack!), Jordan, Benny and Wilson. SO'D and McInnes were hamstrung by truly shocking squads that they inherited. 

We played some absolute dogsh17 under Osman, P***s and towards the end of GJ's time, as well.

I think what concerns me most about the current position is the lack of a clear footballing identity - there is no single way of playing, no clear philosophy, no focal point. An obdurate defence and then some half-arsed flouncing about in front of them, but no real coherence to it.

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I see no point whatsoever in sacking Holden now. If anybody thinks a new manager would get us into the top 2 they're living in cloud cuckoo land. Our chances of a play off position are slim, but they're still there and I don't see another manager now changing that. We are not going to go down so I'm happy to wait to  the end of the season and reassess then. Its not as if we've gone on an 8 match losing streak, as we did under LJ, and some of those who are asking for his head now are arguing style over substance. Has anyone considered the financial implications in these Covid ravaged times, especially if it meant losing Simpson and Downing too.

As things stand we are not on a par with Norwich, Brentford or Swansea but had we a fully fit squad I'm sure we would compete with Watford, Brentford and Reading and be a play off team. I honestly believe Holden has done OK with the resources available. Given the level of injuries and the high intensity of this Covid ravaged season its been close to impossible to keep a settled side for a run of games. It's admirable that he doesn't use injuries as an excuse but it would be daft to imagine it hasn't affected our performances and league position, and there are positives. The loss of senior pros has forced the playing of more youngsters than could be expected and they have stood up well. While we may not be where we wanted to be right now the future looks bright. 

 

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2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I have actually come around to this explanation of the Holden appointment.

We clearly were interested in appointing a proper manager because we enquired as to Gerrard's potential interest and interviewed Hughton and Cook on more than one occasion. But I think after days and weeks of deliberating, given the circumstances brought about by covid, we felt it best to give Holden this season and "go again" properly next season. Most recently, the biggest clue IMO was Ashton telling Geoff Twentyman that we hadn't offered deals to any of the out of contract players, including senior pro's like Paterson, Hunt and Weimann.

This suggests to me that we are preparing to clear the decks for a big change this summer. Also consider the training ground will be complete and is a great asset to be able to sell to prospective managers. 

This optimism that Holden will be replaced this summer with a "proper" manager is obviously tempered by the fact that it will still be SL and MA doing the decision-making. 

Clearing the decks was inevitable for economic reasons.  There will be space for maybe 3 'proven' championship players plus 4 or 5 upcoming players who are a decent age.  It would make no sense taking up the option to pay Weimann £22k a week when we could be using that money to recruit 4 or 5 players who would likely contribute as 1st team players.

 

 

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Holden should never have been appointed.

His ambition to break into management should've started at a lower league club to learn his craft.

It's complacent to say we can't go down and dreamland to think we'll have a shot at going up via the play-offs.

Correct the mistake now, let the new guy have plenty of games to get to know our strengths and weaknesses and then the summer to try to put right some wrongs.

Simpson and Downing should go as well. Every week we seem to be less well organised. If anything we have negative coaching - natural ability is being lost.

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36 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Clearing the decks was inevitable for economic reasons.  There will be space for maybe 3 'proven' championship players plus 4 or 5 upcoming players who are a decent age.  It would make no sense taking up the option to pay Weimann £22k a week when we could be using that money to recruit 4 or 5 players who would likely contribute as 1st team players.

I wouldn't say inevitable because as confirmed by football financial experts such as Swiss Ramble and Kieran Maguire, we do actually have plenty of headroom in regard to FFP. We could afford to offer those players new deals, if we wanted to. The current climate does however provide an opportunity to clear the decks and start again. I am merely speculating that it is more likely we will let a new proper manager help steer that recruitment instead of Dean Holden. 

I really hope I'm right. 

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End of season and then assess..once returning players gelled.

how many on here were bleating how wrong they were after the first 5 games and 15 points (albeit some tad fortuitous ) and if we win 3 or 4 in a row again the doubters will believe  once again.  He has been shafted by list of injury’s to many key players...crap football agree. Lack attacking decent play. Agree. Not getting stick at games as no fans. Being 10th is most likely above our station on performances..  let season conclude and take measured view.  If it continues unlikely be here start 21/22 season 

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3 hours ago, Robbored said:

Otib really amuses me at times.................:)

We lose in the cup to a PL club after a dreadfully poor loss at AG to Cardiff and that prompts  a completely meaningless thread like this one...............:rofl2br:

You must realise it's not just 2 games that have led to this?

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