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Holden - sack or keep?


Holden - sack or keep?   

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3 hours ago, Robbored said:

Otib really amuses me at times.................:)

We lose in the cup to a PL club after a dreadfully poor loss at AG to Cardiff and that prompts  a completely meaningless thread like this one...............:rofl2br:

You must realise it's not just 2 games that have led to this?

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We have 10 games between now and the end of March. 

Lump those 10 onto the 10 or so games Holden had the back end of last season then we have virtually a whole season of 46 games to assess Holdens tenure.

4 wins out of the 10 - I think he stays.

If not, I think we should move for Paul Cook who will have 10 games then until the end of May to assess the squad and coupled with all those players out of contract, a great opportunity to re-shape things.

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3 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Makes sense.

If Holden goes I wouldn’t be surprised if they try and sell the club to someone like Lampard factoring in all that. 

Lansdown clearly likes the idea of it (Gerrard) and coincidentally both were in the England side when Lansdown and JL followed England in the 2006 WC.

So was Sol Campbell... 🙁

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5 hours ago, Sturny said:

Honest question, but why not? Cardiff did just that, are we that different? 

 

 

5 hours ago, Alex_BCFC said:

Pointless sacking now and expecting a decent manager to come in during this season. We would just be getting another short-term appointment.

Next season there should be clarity over finances for the future and then they can make a sensible decision over a manager who can take us forward.

Don’t agree, gives new manager time to come in,  and look at players, sort new contracts etc, and we could still possibly make the play offs, which we aren’t going to, the way we are playing at the moment.

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I cant see the point of keeping him until the end of the season, get rid now let the new man come in assess the squad see what he needs/wants and with 11 players out of contract in the summer he would have the chance to remodel the side

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10 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

So about 2% of your 36000 post input is worthwhile?

Would be interesting to see how many 💩 and 🍆 you had in contrast... :cool2:

Much  to my disappointment I don’t have any. Probably due to the fact that TM seems to have disappeared. Shame - he was a trustworthy source of aubergines 🍆 

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4 hours ago, BCFCGav said:

Assuming we safely stay up, I'd give him another crack next season with a fit squad. Before the injury blitz we were exactly where we wanted to be, up in the mixer. 11 first team injuries is a travesty. Sack the sodding physios or sports scientists or whoever is most directly related to player fitness, but keep Dean. I'd only want to see Dean sacked if relegation was beginning to look likely. 

You are having a laugh aren't you 

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On 21/12/2020 at 14:09, GasDestroyer said:

From what I have read, Ashtons recruitment strategy is about “bargain basement” deals for players which carry an injury risk. So not just bad luck IMO.

Interesting. Maybe a number of our signings would have cost more if not for injury?

Risk/reward...if it pays off ie shrewd recruitment for some moderate prices then great but if not...

The thing about such players might be how they are managed- see Chris Martin. It was clear that by Christmas and maybe before he was being played into the ground.

At Derby, he had a medical issue apparently. So I've read on their forum anyway. He started off while not prolific, very effective. The assists, holdup play- more of a pivot than Diedhiou for sure.

Cocu rotated him last season and he hit form at various times but he used him sparingly at others. With us, we played him and the more we played him the worse/less effective he became!

Wonder if all that contributed to him now being injured. We started using him a bit more sparingly in January...but was it too late.

Wonder if Williams was another. Good player fairly cheap, but risk of injury quite high.

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1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

Holden should never have been appointed.

His ambition to break into management should've started at a lower league club to learn his craft.

It's complacent to say we can't go down and dreamland to think we'll have a shot at going up via the play-offs.

Correct the mistake now, let the new guy have plenty of games to get to know our strengths and weaknesses and then the summer to try to put right some wrongs.

Simpson and Downing should go as well. Every week we seem to be less well organised. If anything we have negative coaching - natural ability is being lost.

Should be ok to agree with every word of this and avoid the wrath of some on here 🕵️‍♀️

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On 21/12/2020 at 14:09, GasDestroyer said:

From what I have read, Ashtons recruitment strategy is about “bargain basement” deals for players which carry an injury risk. So not just bad luck IMO.

That's exactly what this is take Williams for example he's had previous with a thigh injury Mawson his knee etc etc We are paying the price for having a CEO recruiting players getting these sort of players reduces the price which makes Ashtons figures look good.

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1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I wouldn't say inevitable because as confirmed by football financial experts such as Swiss Ramble and Kieran Maguire, we do actually have plenty of headroom in regard to FFP. We could afford to offer those players new deals, if we wanted to. The current climate does however provide an opportunity to clear the decks and start again. I am merely speculating that it is more likely we will let a new proper manager help steer that recruitment instead of Dean Holden. 

I really hope I'm right. 

 

Lansdown's "great reset"?  ;)

You know me, I favour the cock-up theory over the conspiracy one.  Especially where this club's board is concerned.  :laughcont:

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1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I wouldn't say inevitable because as confirmed by football financial experts such as Swiss Ramble and Kieran Maguire, we do actually have plenty of headroom in regard to FFP. We could afford to offer those players new deals, if we wanted to. The current climate does however provide an opportunity to clear the decks and start again. I am merely speculating that it is more likely we will let a new proper manager help steer that recruitment instead of Dean Holden. 

I really hope I'm right. 

Don't hold your breath mind. 

 

Lansdown wanted the club solvent by now. He's invested in the infrastructure-  Stadium , Academy and Training facilities. Although we can keep within FFP, it doesn't mean he wants to stretch our debt any further.  He wants the club to be solvent and to be producing players for the first team in a well organised and structured way.

Trouble is he hasn't ceded control to those who know more about the game.  I get the impression he distrusts football people probably because of the levels of greed and self-interest in the game.  

Will he really give as much power to a manager as he has given to Pat Lam?  I suspect not.

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4 hours ago, Mr Chappers said:

Very much in the minority, but I think the coaching structure is right to take the club forward, might take a year or two to produce results, and this year has been hampered by Covid and injuries. 
Just my opinion, I know I’m in a minority, but I’m a massive fan of the structure in place and stability. 
And all that’s happening now is not real, because I’m not watching it!

Where do you see us as a club then in 2 years time with this coaching team in place?  

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12 minutes ago, LoyalRed said:

212 SACK 

13 KEEP HIM

128 KEEP UNTIL END OF SEASON

It's a landslide majority !

Didn't realist Mark Ashton had 13 accounts on here

2 hours ago, Robin among swans said:

The manager we wanted in the summer wasn’t available so we got Holden.

Klopp is probably still likely to be employed

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2 hours ago, RoystonFoote'snephew said:

I see no point whatsoever in sacking Holden now. If anybody thinks a new manager would get us into the top 2 they're living in cloud cuckoo land. Our chances of a play off position are slim, but they're still there and I don't see another manager now changing that. We are not going to go down so I'm happy to wait to  the end of the season and reassess then. Its not as if we've gone on an 8 match losing streak, as we did under LJ, and some of those who are asking for his head now are arguing style over substance. Has anyone considered the financial implications in these Covid ravaged times, especially if it meant losing Simpson and Downing too.

As things stand we are not on a par with Norwich, Brentford or Swansea but had we a fully fit squad I'm sure we would compete with Watford, Brentford and Reading and be a play off team. I honestly believe Holden has done OK with the resources available. Given the level of injuries and the high intensity of this Covid ravaged season its been close to impossible to keep a settled side for a run of games. It's admirable that he doesn't use injuries as an excuse but it would be daft to imagine it hasn't affected our performances and league position, and there are positives. The loss of senior pros has forced the playing of more youngsters than could be expected and they have stood up well. While we may not be where we wanted to be right now the future looks bright. 

 

IMO we have had too many injuries for it to be just unlucky, must be something to do with training...to much/not enough?

You mention covid ravaged, twice, covid effects Brentford/Swansea/Norwich but not as much as us it seems.

Finally correct, not a 8 match losing streak just yet but no away win in the league since 1st Dec and only 4 wins since and no draws....in 13 league games I believe. Not ok imo.

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58 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Much  to my disappointment I don’t have any. Probably due to the fact that TM seems to have disappeared. Shame - he was a trustworthy source of aubergines 🍆 

I think you know full well it's because those reactions were removed from use, hence the use of the past tense "had". If they were still on the system they'd be clear for all to see 😃

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4 hours ago, the1stknowle said:

Worth saying that, under Benny, we were insanely unlucky sometimes (somehow drawing a game against top of table West Brom, at Hawthorns, despite dominating) and occasionally played some of the best football ive seen in my time watching City. I don't think Benny was the joker he is remembered as. 

Worst football was toss up between Pulis and SoD. Although McInnes also very bad. And the Danny Wilson football wasn't the freeflowing Brazil ball that people seem to remember. TBH it's probably easier to highlight when we played good football - the back three under Cotts., A few of those seasons under GJ and the early seasons under LJ. That's it, no?

There was definitely some bad luck under Benny. In addition to that West Brom game, week before we played run away leaders Sunderland and were very resilient. Last minute penalty was it! Pulled back from 2 down v top 2 pushing Bradford...but lost 3-2. Windass??

We showed some decent spirit in April. Birmingham refereeing put paid to our hopes of a late and tbh unlikely survival push. The first 5 games however, this was a catastrophic start especially the first two!

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1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

I wouldn't say inevitable because as confirmed by football financial experts such as Swiss Ramble and Kieran Maguire, we do actually have plenty of headroom in regard to FFP. We could afford to offer those players new deals, if we wanted to. The current climate does however provide an opportunity to clear the decks and start again. I am merely speculating that it is more likely we will let a new proper manager help steer that recruitment instead of Dean Holden. 

I really hope I'm right. 

So do I hope you’re right . If that was the case then there would have to be a change in the recruitment set up 

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6 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Sacking Holden, and even Ashton, is akin to rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.

Until the man at the helm has a lightbulb moment and realises he needs to take advice from proper footballing people with the requisite experience, then we will continue to tread water, and eventually begin to go backwards. 

I was thinking exactly this. I’m sure Ashton brings a lot of good things to the club that we don’t really know about and appreciate. I do think though that with the model the club seems to want to follow, head coach wise, that we also need that experienced football person, as you say, in a director of football role heavily involved with defining the team methodology and bringing in the required coaches to deliver that along with working with the CEO to bring the right players in

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The thing that surprises me with the Holden situation is how little I’ve warmed to him. Well, I just haven’t. At all.

I’m sure he’s a lovely bloke, it’s nothing personal, in the summer I thought it was a crazy appointment but, in all honestly, that was more due to the manner in which the club sold the search than the outcome itself. He’d done a decent job as caretaker, putting him on a 12 month prove-it deal certainly wasn’t top of my list but had the club not hyped up a promotion charge I’d have been pretty willing to go along with conservative ambitions with Holden at the helm under the Covid cloud.

I also remember at the time saying it was a huge move in regard to club structure as, should it fail, and I think it’s fair to say it currently is, Ashton had placed himself firmly in the firing line. The more I think about that though, the less sense it makes to me. If you’re Mark Ashton, are you putting your head on the block for a guy with Holden’s experience?

It’s probably fair to assume that of ALL the applicants considered Holden was the least experienced. Are you choosing that guy? I wouldn’t. So who did?

I therefore think it's perfectly feasible Holden goes and the pantomime villain stays.

For me, if we haven’t already toppled over then we’re very much on the precipice of saying, Dean Holden isn’t going to bring success to this club. Certainly not now, anyway. So for me, though I’d happily see how Watford/Reading play out, I’d be looking at credible unemployed candidates who can come in for a six month interview.

Names that won’t bring much excitement but a Garry Monk, Mark Hughes, Nigel Adkins etc. Someone with something on their track record. We’re unlikely to go down, arguably less likely if a change is made, so let’s see if something clicks before reassessing in the summer. If you/we/they have concluded he isn’t the right man for the job then I see little point dragging things out.

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8 hours ago, old_eastender said:

There is still a worrying chance we could go down THIS year, with hapless Holden in charge. (Although I agree with others Ashton needs to go too, for there to be real change, don't see any experienced managers being prepared to come in and work under Ashton's span of control).

Yes Eighteen games left plenty of points to fight for we have an eleveen point cushion at the moment  but realistically thats four games we need to remember how Hull callapsed  last year still worrying times .

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5 minutes ago, S_C said:

The thing that surprises me with the Holden situation is how little I’ve warmed to him. Well, I just haven’t. At all.

I’m sure he’s a lovely bloke, it’s nothing personal, in the summer I thought it was a crazy appointment but, in all honestly, that was more due to the manner in which the club sold the search than the outcome itself. He’d done a decent job as caretaker, putting him in on a 12 month prove-it deal certainly wasn’t top of my list but had the club not hyped up a promotion charge I’d have been pretty willing to go along with conservative ambitions with Holden at the helm under the Covid cloud.

I also remember at the time saying it was a huge move in regard to club structure as, should it fail, as I think it’s fair to say it currently is, Ashton had placed himself firmly in the firing line. The more I think about that though, the less sense it makes to me. If you’re Mark Ashton, are you putting your head on the block for a guy with Holden’s experience?

It’s probably fair to assume that of ALL the applicants considered Holden was the least experienced. Are you choosing that guy? I wouldn’t. So who did?

I therefore think it's perfectly feasible Holden goes and the pantomime villain stays.

For me, if we haven’t already toppled over then we’re very much on the precipice of saying, Dean Holden isn’t going to bring success to this club. Certainly not now, anyway. So for me, though I’d happily see how Watford/Reading play out, I’d be looking at credible unemployed candidates who can come in for a six month interview.

Names that won’t bring much excitement but a Garry Monk, Mark Hughes, Nigel Adkins etc. Someone with something on their track record. We’re unlikely to go down, arguably less likely if a change is made, so let’s see if something clicks before reassessing in the summer. If you/we/they have concluded he isn’t the right man for the job then I see little point dragging things out.

A guy that due to inexperience and the shear fact he knows he is in a job he shouldn't have got, has got absolutely no real voice. He (Holden) cant bang on doors making demands to Ashton for players. Ashton is head of recruitment as well as other departments. If there is to be a review on injuries and the medical department that Ashton recruited its going to be led by Ashton. Do you think a more experienced manager would put up with this.

A more experienced manager would leave Ashton with less power. This is why I am sure Holden is currently manager of our football club.

 

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