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Holden - sack or keep?


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Holden - sack or keep?   

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23 hours ago, maxjak said:

I appreciate that they have a better quality and larger squad..........but just as an example, Norwich on the 1st of December had 13 player out injured, 10 of them long term issues. I am sure if i looked into it there would be other clubs with long lists of injured players.  It is a bit of a fallacy that we are the only team with major injury problems. My point being........it is not a fact?

Fans are looking for hope in many things for a change in fortune including; the injury list, up coming players, transfer window, the next manager, the next game, previous good runs, etc SL is the only one who can change things and give us all real hope.....not going to happen anytime soon.

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I’m torn. 

I’m torn between wanting what’s best for Bristol City (sack Holden, appoint Cook) and equality (give Holden the same repeated chances LJ got). 

I don’t think it’d be fair to sack Dean Holden, but I do think the club would be better off appointing the man they should’ve appointed a few months ago, one proven to get players playing better than the sum of their parts. 

Holden out would be grossly unfair right now. 

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1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

I’m torn. 

I’m torn between wanting what’s best for Bristol City (sack Holden, appoint Cook) and equality (give Holden the same repeated chances LJ got). 

I don’t think it’d be fair to sack Dean Holden, but I do think the club would be better off appointing the man they should’ve appointed a few months ago, one proven to get players playing better than the sum of their parts. 

Holden out would be grossly unfair right now. 

I literally couldn’t give a monkeys any more tbh. The sooner you all accept that we will never make the Prem under this regime the better you will feel. We’re like a stunning blonde bimbo, look great on the outside but no brains to go with it..

Premier league facilities, league 1 board!

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I'm as frustrated with the injury list as I am with the performance of the players. The total lack of shots at opponents goal is a disgrace considering the two experienced coaches that are assisting DH.  Would changing the manager help bring back injured players ? No.  We have players in the side who have had to fill in while we wait for first teamers to return. They are not Championship level consistent players and all have a mistake or two in them every game. The inability to pass the ball without giving it away whilst not under pressure is very frustrating. Why can't our 'top' coaches see this ?  Will our returning players turn us into a promotion contender ? Will Kalas and Baker not get injured again and miss more games ? Will Walsh be the Championship ready midfield partner for William's in midfield ? Or will he leave the club ?  Bunging the 'kids' in would be a mistake. Getting rid of DH now would be wrong. I say give him till the end of the season to see what he can do with a fully fit squad. If things don't improve, entertainment wise, then he and Ashton should go. 

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Unless we become relegation threatened (which I don’t think we will) Holden will be manager till the end of this season at least. I’d put my house on that.

I don’t have a crystal ball, but here goes:

A) I could see a scenario where we finish around 15th, 16th and Holden is shuffled off next summer and it’s all chalked down to a transitional COVID year and thanks Dean for blooding all the youth.

B) I could also see a scenario where we finish in the same place and SL does what he does best and gives him another shot. Then it’s anyone’s guess!

I suspect though we will end up ‘wasting’/slowing the premier league push back by 2 to 3 years by appointing Holden. Maybe that’s a bit harsh but if he starts next season as manager, I don’t see us going up in the next 3 years IMO because I don’t think it will happen under him and that’s the shortest time a new manager could come in and achieve it, if they appoint the right person next time that is!

The board might not be overly bothered as long as we don’t become relegation threatened?

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We are light years away from promotion.  Yes, it is about quality of manager but also about quality of players.  At the moment who in our team would be considered an improvement by teams at the bottom end of the Prem?  Perhaps only Bentley.  Others might suggest Kalas but when Chelsea offloaded those teams didn’t snap him up.  Nagy doesn’t look Prem quality in my opinion, and more significantly I doubt there would be any takers for our four strikers.  
 

If SL is serious re promotion, and I am not sure he is after all these years, then he needs to spend.  The current policy, as many Otibers have said, is only likely to succeed by accident, ie a season where young players hit maturity and class together before we cash in and all the old hands brought in prove still to have it at this level or above.  But to bring the money in SL needs to appoint a larger Board, something he is clearly reluctant to do.

Thus mid Championship with good football and the occasional cup brilliance is best we can hope for.  What worries me is that such an approach can more easily fail than succeed, as we have experienced in the past, and then relegation threatens.

 

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1 hour ago, fatchers said:

I'm as frustrated with the injury list as I am with the performance of the players. The total lack of shots at opponents goal is a disgrace considering the two experienced coaches that are assisting DH.  Would changing the manager help bring back injured players ? No.  We have players in the side who have had to fill in while we wait for first teamers to return. They are not Championship level consistent players and all have a mistake or two in them every game. The inability to pass the ball without giving it away whilst not under pressure is very frustrating. Why can't our 'top' coaches see this ?  Will our returning players turn us into a promotion contender ? Will Kalas and Baker not get injured again and miss more games ? Will Walsh be the Championship ready midfield partner for William's in midfield ? Or will he leave the club ?  Bunging the 'kids' in would be a mistake. Getting rid of DH now would be wrong. I say give him till the end of the season to see what he can do with a fully fit squad. If things don't improve, entertainment wise, then he and Ashton should go. 

I struggle to understand how a Manager who is clearly not got the ability to manage a team in the Championship will improve because he has better players. He will still be the same when they return. 

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55 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

I struggle to understand how a Manager who is clearly not got the ability to manage a team in the Championship will improve because he has better players. He will still be the same when they return. 

Disagree... with so many key players missing cannot really set up as he wants..in ideal world of non injured players would we not set up with a 3 5 2 ?  with the likes of Kalas, Mawson , Baker  two decent wing backs in Segg and Disilva, midfield Walsh Williams, Nagy..front two of Wells Plus one... 
At present we seem to mix and mash.... with current injuries.. I do understand other teams are in similar boat... but how many have literally lost the whole spine..

Holden will rightly be given whole season.. anything other is nonsensical 

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On 19/12/2020 at 07:47, maxjak said:

I appreciate that they have a better quality and larger squad..........but just as an example, Norwich on the 1st of December had 13 player out injured, 10 of them long term issues. I am sure if i looked into it there would be other clubs with long lists of injured players.  It is a bit of a fallacy that we are the only team with major injury problems. My point being........it is not a fact?

Out of interest who are the 10 long term injuries Norwich have out?

https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-city/norwich-city-injury-list-in-full-6569038

Good article here.  Two players suggested as Jan (McLean and Dowell) were in the 20 yesterday, McLean started.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest who are the 10 long term injuries Norwich have out?

https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-city/norwich-city-injury-list-in-full-6569038

Good article here.  Two players suggested as Jan (McLean and Dowell) were in the 20 yesterday, McLean started.

Also played Pukki, Cantwell Hugill on bench... have not checked others...but our list blows that lot out the water.  At least our injuries are better than theirs ?

OTIB is an unforgiving place at times! 

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I will judge him at end of season - expected 18th with a full squad so overall he is going better than expected.

However a few things - one I don’t think 18th is good enough but I think with the contract he was given this was a short term measure. Secondly the football is horrendous. As it doesn’t really feel real watching from home - the only thing I want is to see is us play well and to be in championship by the time we return next season. If we don’t play better football then we might have well of kept LJ. The injuries are clearly having a huge bearing on things but the level of play seen is just not acceptable regardless.

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55 minutes ago, weepywall said:

Not sure about sacking DH at the moment but I'm beginning to wonder what the hell our 2 new coaches are bringing to the table ?‍♂️

They are FA Coaches, bringing the wonderful ‘crab football’ philosophy to our beloved team. 

Thought it was a good idea appointing these two experienced coaches initially, then realised their current FA Coaching Manual is about 30 years out of date.

Not quite sure how ‘crab football’ fits with our attacking, expansive, aggressive vision of power football...but still, we watch and wait.

 

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In a perfect world, for me Dean is only keeping the seat warm. A stupid theory that has been playing on my mind is this; Is it possible the deal with LJ’s successor was all but over the line until the new man threw a spanner in the works and stated he wants a year or something similar, Family issues perhaps? Hence the 5 weeks of “talks” This left us in a tricky situation and it was very much a case of finding the best possible short term solution till the new man takes over at the end of the season. If a short term solution was the specification, one that doesn’t cause too much disruption to the squad then Dean would be a perfect option. Keeps the ship steady(ish) well documented that the lads love him, short contract and most importantly CHEAP. Bring in a couple of cheap coaches to sell the supporters on the idea knowing it’s unlikely there will be any fans attending games and wait till the end of the season when their main target takes over.

Clutching at straws I know but one can dream…

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7 hours ago, Gmac said:

In a perfect world, for me Dean is only keeping the seat warm. A stupid theory that has been playing on my mind is this; Is it possible the deal with LJ’s successor was all but over the line until the new man threw a spanner in the works and stated he wants a year or something similar, Family issues perhaps? Hence the 5 weeks of “talks” This left us in a tricky situation and it was very much a case of finding the best possible short term solution till the new man takes over at the end of the season. If a short term solution was the specification, one that doesn’t cause too much disruption to the squad then Dean would be a perfect option. Keeps the ship steady(ish) well documented that the lads love him, short contract and most importantly CHEAP. Bring in a couple of cheap coaches to sell the supporters on the idea knowing it’s unlikely there will be any fans attending games and wait till the end of the season when their main target takes over.

Clutching at straws I know but one can dream…

That is a great dream. But you wake up and realise this is Bristol City.

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7 hours ago, Gmac said:

In a perfect world, for me Dean is only keeping the seat warm. A stupid theory that has been playing on my mind is this; Is it possible the deal with LJ’s successor was all but over the line until the new man threw a spanner in the works and stated he wants a year or something similar, Family issues perhaps? Hence the 5 weeks of “talks” This left us in a tricky situation and it was very much a case of finding the best possible short term solution till the new man takes over at the end of the season. If a short term solution was the specification, one that doesn’t cause too much disruption to the squad then Dean would be a perfect option. Keeps the ship steady(ish) well documented that the lads love him, short contract and most importantly CHEAP. Bring in a couple of cheap coaches to sell the supporters on the idea knowing it’s unlikely there will be any fans attending games and wait till the end of the season when their main target takes over.

Clutching at straws I know but one can dream…

Must admit I've been thinking short term/keeping the seat warm since the appointment, but then I think - this is BCFC.

As much as I love the club (don't we all), we have a knack of taking the cheap option and ballsing up any forward momentum we had. The worrying thing is, as soon as Johnson was shown the door, I think a lot of us knew what would happen, although hoped that we were wrong. We were of course, proved right.

I do think we interviewed "higher calibre" candidates, but Dean played the right cards, said what he thought the board wanted to hear, and it worked. The timescale was more of a smokescreen to make it look like they were doing their "due dilligance". 

The short term contract gives everyone a free get put of jail card so to speak - Dean does well, he gets a longer improved contract. He doesn't, then we say thank you for steadying the ship during an "unprecedented period of uncertainty", and then we look again for the longterm successor.

If we wanted to employ someone like Cook (for example), who then said "you know what I'd love the job, but feel the need to take some time out to recharge my batteries", employing Holden would make sense. However, this is why I believe that this is a rubbish theory - the calibre of the possible interviewees last summer.

Realistically, who would we have spoken to, that was out of work or making noises about leaving their current club at the time? Cook is the obvious name, then obviously we have to put Holden in the picture (he did get the job after all). Hughton was in the frame, but apparently rocked up expecting the red carpet and the keys to the Kingdom, and knew bugger all about the club. Was there really anybody else who would have made the club sit up and think "we'll appoint Holden for now until that excellent candidate is ready in 6-12 months time"?

Howe was looking a bit dodgy at Bournemouth, but was still employed. Bilic was not even in the picture, and Watfords last manager was probably just setting up his new desk (I jest, I don't know when he started, nor do I really care).

The fact is, I think we appointed Dean Holden because he interviewed well, knew the club, and would be a "risk worth taking". We have no successor to Holden set up, because the club want him to be the man to do the job. 

This post may come across a bit like a "Holden is the cheap option, and I don't like him". I do like him, he's a very likeable guy, but then so is my next door neighbour. Longterm I don't think he is the answer, and I do think he is "steadying the ship in the hope we reach the desired destination", but there is no long term successor in the sights.

As the season goes on, managers will lose their jobs, and at some point we may have a high end quality selection box in front of us, compared to the budget one that was available in the Summer. Howe, Bilic, both look to be the chocolates that most people want, however I do think that we are quite happy with the Aldi version, and will stick with it until it tastes like something you can't quite put your finger on.

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21 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest who are the 10 long term injuries Norwich have out?

https://www.pinkun.com/sport/norwich-city/norwich-city-injury-list-in-full-6569038

Good article here.  Two players suggested as Jan (McLean and Dowell) were in the 20 yesterday, McLean started.

There was a 2 week period (end of November, start of December) when Norwich had 13 missing, they drew at home to Coventry & didn’t have a single fit striker in the squad & could only name 6 subs (just 1 with first team experience, sound familiar?).

Nearly all of these players bar Krul & Quintilla are now fit, their injuries seem to clear up far quicker than ours..

8 hours ago, Gmac said:

In a perfect world, for me Dean is only keeping the seat warm. A stupid theory that has been playing on my mind is this; Is it possible the deal with LJ’s successor was all but over the line until the new man threw a spanner in the works and stated he wants a year or something similar, Family issues perhaps? Hence the 5 weeks of “talks” This left us in a tricky situation and it was very much a case of finding the best possible short term solution till the new man takes over at the end of the season. If a short term solution was the specification, one that doesn’t cause too much disruption to the squad then Dean would be a perfect option. Keeps the ship steady(ish) well documented that the lads love him, short contract and most importantly CHEAP. Bring in a couple of cheap coaches to sell the supporters on the idea knowing it’s unlikely there will be any fans attending games and wait till the end of the season when their main target takes over.

Clutching at straws I know but one can dream…

No.

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I've taken the weekend to think about it and I'm certainly going to be Holden out if we draw or lose to Wycombe - I don't really see him as a new coach he's just a continuation of the previous coach.

After having a season ticket for 26 years but having nine months enforced away, being given the opportunity to get back in the stadium I should be excited but I'm not interested which means something is desperately wrong. 

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8 hours ago, Gmac said:

In a perfect world, for me Dean is only keeping the seat warm. A stupid theory that has been playing on my mind is this; Is it possible the deal with LJ’s successor was all but over the line until the new man threw a spanner in the works and stated he wants a year or something similar, Family issues perhaps? Hence the 5 weeks of “talks” This left us in a tricky situation and it was very much a case of finding the best possible short term solution till the new man takes over at the end of the season. If a short term solution was the specification, one that doesn’t cause too much disruption to the squad then Dean would be a perfect option. Keeps the ship steady(ish) well documented that the lads love him, short contract and most importantly CHEAP. Bring in a couple of cheap coaches to sell the supporters on the idea knowing it’s unlikely there will be any fans attending games and wait till the end of the season when their main target takes over.

Clutching at straws I know but one can dream…

IMO you’re overthinking it and giving far too much credit!

For me the simple answer is usually the one - I honestly believe SL, JL and MA honestly believed DH was the best man for the job, given their criteria.

The reality is our strategy of finding and developing players is the same for the manager - SL and MA are desperate to find their own Eddie Howe or Chris Wilder. 

This is backed up by the assistants they brought in, they wouldn’t have left the England set up if they didn’t think it was a longer term project and the emphasis wasn’t on developing youth.

The dawning reality for everyone at the club (well you hope they know) is that on our current budget, any coach taking us up would be working some serious magic. At the moment there is little suggest DH has, for all his positives, the extra gear to improve us and take us up.

So once again we will go round in circles, back to the paddock where the club will again look at the colts and eyeball one out and hope they’ve backed the right horse this time.

I just hope, along with probably 90% of City fans, it seems, that for once they go for a more experienced and qualified candidate. They’re out there and they’re willing to work in the current remit of the club too.

Or the club, for once, come out and say “this is how it is” and stop the annual “we’re aiming for the premier league”, “premier league club in training” chat and we can accept us fighting and surviving in the championship. 

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1 hour ago, Pezo said:

I've taken the weekend to think about it and I'm certainly going to be Holden out if we draw or lose to Wycombe - I don't really see him as a new coach he's just a continuation of the previous coach.

After having a season ticket for 26 years but having nine months enforced away, being given the opportunity to get back in the stadium I should be excited but I'm not interested which means something is desperately wrong. 

Wycombe are bottom of the league so I would be disappointed with another scrappy win. We should be looking to put at least 3 past them.

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1 minute ago, Top Robin said:

Wycombe are bottom of the league so I would be disappointed with another scrappy win. We should be looking to put at least 3 past them.

not gonna happen, they put 11 men behind the ball. Only conceded 1 or 2 in most games. It's not going to be pretty

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2 hours ago, Taz said:

Must admit I've been thinking short term/keeping the seat warm since the appointment, but then I think - this is BCFC.

As much as I love the club (don't we all), we have a knack of taking the cheap option and ballsing up any forward momentum we had. The worrying thing is, as soon as Johnson was shown the door, I think a lot of us knew what would happen, although hoped that we were wrong. We were of course, proved right.

I do think we interviewed "higher calibre" candidates, but Dean played the right cards, said what he thought the board wanted to hear, and it worked. The timescale was more of a smokescreen to make it look like they were doing their "due dilligance". 

The short term contract gives everyone a free get put of jail card so to speak - Dean does well, he gets a longer improved contract. He doesn't, then we say thank you for steadying the ship during an "unprecedented period of uncertainty", and then we look again for the longterm successor.

If we wanted to employ someone like Cook (for example), who then said "you know what I'd love the job, but feel the need to take some time out to recharge my batteries", employing Holden would make sense. However, this is why I believe that this is a rubbish theory - the calibre of the possible interviewees last summer.

Realistically, who would we have spoken to, that was out of work or making noises about leaving their current club at the time? Cook is the obvious name, then obviously we have to put Holden in the picture (he did get the job after all). Hughton was in the frame, but apparently rocked up expecting the red carpet and the keys to the Kingdom, and knew bugger all about the club. Was there really anybody else who would have made the club sit up and think "we'll appoint Holden for now until that excellent candidate is ready in 6-12 months time"?

Howe was looking a bit dodgy at Bournemouth, but was still employed. Bilic was not even in the picture, and Watfords last manager was probably just setting up his new desk (I jest, I don't know when he started, nor do I really care).

The fact is, I think we appointed Dean Holden because he interviewed well, knew the club, and would be a "risk worth taking". We have no successor to Holden set up, because the club want him to be the man to do the job. 

This post may come across a bit like a "Holden is the cheap option, and I don't like him". I do like him, he's a very likeable guy, but then so is my next door neighbour. Longterm I don't think he is the answer, and I do think he is "steadying the ship in the hope we reach the desired destination", but there is no long term successor in the sights.

As the season goes on, managers will lose their jobs, and at some point we may have a high end quality selection box in front of us, compared to the budget one that was available in the Summer. Howe, Bilic, both look to be the chocolates that most people want, however I do think that we are quite happy with the Aldi version, and will stick with it until it tastes like something you can't quite put your finger on.

Various points made in this post but I feel the few words below are why Holden got the job and illustrates what’s wrong with the current set up:

“Dean played the right cards, said what he thought the board wanted to hear, and it worked”

Perhaps not “the board” as there isn’t one, but what SL wanted to hear. He doesn’t seem to like people who are challenging 

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