Covid and injuries showing how we can trust our youngsters

[Major Isewater]

We have just seen a solid debut from young Towler with the COVID and numerous injuries it is actually a positive to see that globally our youngsters are capable of holding their own at Championship level;

Bakinson, Vyner , Moore and Semenyo all getting good game time and should be even better next season.

 Then we have the likes of Bell and Towler getting minutes here and there.

I am happy to take the chance with the kids rather than go out and buy some journeyman ( Mariappa and company) . For me it adds interest to an otherwise dull campaign and saves the club a fortune into the bargain.

We, as a club, have rarely given the chance to the ‘ academy ‘ lads to learn their trade with us . The pathway was just words but we have seen that in recent seasons the quality is there when we show them that we have confidence in their ability. 

Kelly , Bryan and Reid all experiencing the Prem . 
 

I hope we stick with this when things get back to normal. 
 

[ZiderEyed]

I would love it if the club came out next summer and said - "We want to develop a pathway to the first team, and play as many home grown players as is possible. The core of our team should be academy products", and then threw a huge wedge of cash at a manager with a track record of giving a shit about the academy. 

I'd be happy with decent football, mid-table in the Championship and a foray or two in the cup every few years, but with a team made up of club-developed players. 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

I would love it if the club came out next summer and said - "We want to develop a pathway to the first team, and play as many home grown players as is possible. The core of our team should be academy products", and then threw a huge wedge of cash at a manager with a track record of giving a shit about the academy. 

I'd be happy with decent football, mid-table in the Championship and a foray or two in the cup every few years, but with a team made up of club-developed players. 

I’d buy that.

[Kibs]

4 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

I would love it if the club came out next summer and said - "We want to develop a pathway to the first team, and play as many home grown players as is possible. The core of our team should be academy products", and then threw a huge wedge of cash at a manager with a track record of giving a shit about the academy. 

I'd be happy with decent football, mid-table in the Championship and a foray or two in the cup every few years, but with a team made up of club-developed players. 

Yep! Totally agree!

Even though I’ve never watched us in the top flight, I really have no longing desire to see us in the Premier league.

If it happens, great, but I’d be more than happy with what you describe. Just want to enjoy watching my team occasionally!!! 

[Bristol Oil Services]

36 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

We have just seen a solid debut from young Towler with the COVID and numerous injuries it is actually a positive to see that globally our youngsters are capable of holding their own at Championship level;

Bakinson, Vyner , Moore and Semenyo all getting good game time and should be even better next season.

 Then we have the likes of Bell and Towler getting minutes here and there.

I am happy to take the chance with the kids rather than go out and buy some journeyman ( Mariappa and company) . For me it adds interest to an otherwise dull campaign and saves the club a fortune into the bargain.

We, as a club, have rarely given the chance to the ‘ academy ‘ lads to learn their trade with us . The pathway was just words but we have seen that in recent seasons the quality is there when we show them that we have confidence in their ability. 

Kelly , Bryan and Reid all experiencing the Prem . 
 

I hope we stick with this when things get back to normal. 
 

I'm happy with it too, old chap. Until this too results in more underwhelming, plodding, soporific beige-ball. At which point, I shall be hammering Ashton et al and demanding to know why we are not bringing in some "much needed experience" and "proven quality."

And when that, in turn, leads to more underwhelming, soporific, plodding beige-ball, I will be demanding ....

[SBB]

I can’t say I’d settle for mid-table but what I would like to see, is the academy being used to produce the players to get us there, rather than produce players to sell to buy other players to get us there.

[IAmNick]

54 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

I would love it if the club came out next summer and said - "We want to develop a pathway to the first team, and play as many home grown players as is possible. The core of our team should be academy products", and then threw a huge wedge of cash at a manager with a track record of giving a shit about the academy. 

I'd be happy with decent football, mid-table in the Championship and a foray or two in the cup every few years, but with a team made up of club-developed players. 

Me too, but the club really need to publicise it a bit more I think to get fans to buy in to it.

Maybe I'm just not paying attention but I get most information about it from a handful of random posters on here, compared to through the club channels which is pretty poor in my opinion.

Go to the academy page on the site right now: https://www.bcfc.co.uk/academy/

Now click "Teams" and then "Under 23s"... The page link is broken. Now try under 18s. That one is broken too. It's crap. Fixtures? Broken. 

Now check out the latest news - The four articles are Jan 21, Dec 2nd, Nov 29th and Nov 28th... And three of them bloody are job adverts.

I know it's different at the moment due to covid but it's pretty poor really. If they really want fans to buy in to that vision you've got above (which is good I think) they need to SHOW people the academy and the pathway, not just talk about it. Put out some good content, get people interested and excited in our prospects etc.

[Bodiesaffer]

36 minutes ago, SBB said:

I can’t say I’d settle for mid-table but what I would like to see, is the academy being used to produce the players to get us there, rather than produce players to sell to buy other players to get us there.

The idea should of been used more when it comes to injuries too.  Instead of playing senior players out of position play the youth in there natural position.  

[ZiderEyed]

18 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Me too, but the club really need to publicise it a bit more I think to get fans to buy in to it.

Maybe I'm just not paying attention but I get most information about it from a handful of random posters on here, compared to through the club channels which is pretty poor in my opinion.

Go to the academy page on the site right now: https://www.bcfc.co.uk/academy/

Now click "Teams" and then "Under 23s"... The page link is broken. Now try under 18s. That one is broken too. It's crap. Fixtures? Broken. 

Now check out the latest news - The four articles are Jan 21, Dec 2nd, Nov 29th and Nov 28th... And three of them bloody are job adverts.

I know it's different at the moment due to covid but it's pretty poor really. If they really want fans to buy in to that vision you've got above (which is good I think) they need to SHOW people the academy and the pathway, not just talk about it. Put out some good content, get people interested and excited in our prospects etc.

Fundamentally that's the problem. Imo, the club has this odd perception that fans don't affect the environment that the manager/players perform in, so feel they don't need to publicise their intentions.

Reality is that the club doesn't actually have anything like a 'pathway', which is the main reason it isn't publicised, but even if it did have a well established route for academy players to get first team minutes, it wouldn't publicise it then either because of the latent ineptitude.

If you tell fans you want to get to the Premier League, then deliver Lee Johnson for 5 ******* years, and then Dean Holden's utter shite, then that'll affect the environment the players perform in, and you'll wind up season ticket holders. Tell fans you want to develop local-born players and build your team around that core, and then play Towler, Pearson, and Semenyo - you'll get nothing but positivty. Not hard. 

You've hit the nail on the head so hard with that last paragraph. The club gesture at Bobby Reid, and pretend that represents a philosophy of elite youth development. It just isn't and it's insulting to us all, and to current academy players to pretend that it is. 

[Sydneybcfc]

Everyone is forgetting the one problem with all this... fans.

The amount of abuse some of our young players get, academy or not when the have a bad game tells me that before long you're potentially ruining careers playing youngsters not ready for the level who now have to wade through heaps of negative social media about how they'll never make it and are the worst player someone has ever seen.

I'd definitely like to see more academy in the squad but even telling fans our intention as above wouldn't buy them much time if results went south.

[Merrick's Marvels]

Pick a City team with Bakinson Vyner Moore and Semenyo in it and we can strap ourselves in for a relegation battle.

I'm all for producing our own youngsters but have yet to see one that's good enough to be integral to a successful City at Championshiop level, never mind the pipe-dream that is the Premier League.

Vyner at Right Back. Possibly. The rest you can forget about, apart from being squad fillers making cameo appearances from the bench. 

Too soon to know about Towler. Fingers crossed for him. Certainly promising but needs a rocket up his arse. And a loan to toughen him up. 

[Rocking Red Cyril]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I’d buy that.

You should get it for 10 woodbine

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

I'm happy with it too, old chap. Until this too results in more underwhelming, plodding, soporific beige-ball. At which point, I shall be hammering Ashton et al and demanding to know why we are not bringing in some "much needed experience" and "proven quality."

And when that, in turn, leads to more underwhelming, soporific, plodding beige-ball, I will be demanding ....

I get the point you're making about the cycle, but Towler became our 8th player from our academy to feature in a 1st team game this season, if you manage to say add 3 to that with a real focus on the academy the funds that have been used on most of our squad bar a few academy players can suddenly be focused into 14 players instead (based on a 25 man squad), so in theory the average investment of each purchased player would be higher than we're seeing at the moment and supplemented by having a focus on academy players at least within the 25 man squad if not the 18 (or 20). Add everyone seems to think a wage cap will come at some point, well academy players make things a lot more affordable.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, IAmNick said:

Me too, but the club really need to publicise it a bit more I think to get fans to buy in to it.

Maybe I'm just not paying attention but I get most information about it from a handful of random posters on here, compared to through the club channels which is pretty poor in my opinion.

Go to the academy page on the site right now: https://www.bcfc.co.uk/academy/

Now click "Teams" and then "Under 23s"... The page link is broken. Now try under 18s. That one is broken too. It's crap. Fixtures? Broken. 

Now check out the latest news - The four articles are Jan 21, Dec 2nd, Nov 29th and Nov 28th... And three of them bloody are job adverts.

I know it's different at the moment due to covid but it's pretty poor really. If they really want fans to buy in to that vision you've got above (which is good I think) they need to SHOW people the academy and the pathway, not just talk about it. Put out some good content, get people interested and excited in our prospects etc.

I tweeted Dave Barton about the broken links etc on Monday.  In fairness, he DMd me back saying it’s in the process of being done and they were looking to increase content on Academy stuff.  The following day we got post-match interviews, and yesterday we got goal highlights.  So I think they are trying.  Just a shame they’ve left it so long.

[ScottishRed]

9 hours ago, SBB said:

I can’t say I’d settle for mid-table but what I would like to see, is the academy being used to produce the players to get us there, rather than produce players to sell to buy other players to get us there.

And there is the problem.

Develop lads from the academy, play them, do well and the vultures will circle.

it is a pipe dream , when a PL club come calling offering the academy produced lads untold riches, what are they and their agents going to do?

Let me answer that for you, they will be knocking on that nice Mr Ashton’s door before you can say ‘transfer’.

[Phileas Fogg]

10 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

I would love it if the club came out next summer and said - "We want to develop a pathway to the first team, and play as many home grown players as is possible. The core of our team should be academy products", and then threw a huge wedge of cash at a manager with a track record of giving a shit about the academy. 

I'd be happy with decent football, mid-table in the Championship and a foray or two in the cup every few years, but with a team made up of club-developed players. 

It’s a nice idea and I agree to extent, but ultimately I think fans would grow bored of that. Fans want success and the club is geared up to be a prem club. Treading water and developing then selling our best assets, academy or not, would get tiresome after a while.

We’d basically be a Championship level Crewe under Dario Grady.

[SBB]

43 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

And there is the problem.

Develop lads from the academy, play them, do well and the vultures will circle.

it is a pipe dream , when a PL club come calling offering the academy produced lads untold riches, what are they and their agents going to do?

Let me answer that for you, they will be knocking on that nice Mr Ashton’s door before you can say ‘transfer’.

Complete pipe dream and a real idealistic view which is probably only possible once in the prem.

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It’s a nice idea and I agree to extent, but ultimately I think fans would grow bored of that. Fans want success and the club is geared up to be a prem club. Treading water and developing then selling our best assets, academy or not, would get tiresome after a while.

We’d basically be a Championship level Crewe under Dario Grady.

Think you’ve hit the nail on the head, all about expectations, patience and progression....and then communication of strategy.

For me, there are several questions that need answering if we are to take that approach, e.g.

• will we buy-in youth (u23) or experience to plug gaps in the first team at a point in time
• will we recruit youth to fill gaps in the development chain, e.g. Bakinson, Massengo 
• re the above, will we be more ruthless in deciding who is gonna make it / be given the chance
• can we speed up the pathway, e.g. my “one loan too many” article in the summer.  Did Vyner need to go on loan last season to Aberdeen having played 30+ games at this level for Rotherham?
• can we keep a stronger u23 squad so that they can backfill during injury crises, e.g. Pring, Nurse, Morton, even Conway, might’ve been better back-up than Towler, Z.Smith, S.Bell etc.
• can we set a playing philosophy throughout the club from first team down 
• can we review contracts regularly to ensure our players don’t get picked off too early.  I appreciate this is hard in some cases, e.g. Kelly.

None of these are black and white / must do’s, but they are the guard rails that we work within, straying outside when absolutely necessary.

This approach would dramatically cut wage bill and amortisation, and would give City an identity.  By cutting costs you give yourself less need to sell players because of financial reasons.  That is the vicious circle we have gotten into.

In essence what is the Strategy?  Because as i sit here today I have no idea.  What we have been told in the past is lip service, because it hasn’t been followed.

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think you’ve hit the nail on the head, all about expectations, patience and progression....and then communication of strategy.

For me, there are several questions that need answering if we are to take that approach, e.g.

• will we buy-in youth (u23) or experience to plug gaps in the first team at a point in time
• will we recruit youth to fill gaps in the development chain, e.g. Bakinson, Massengo 
• re the above, will we be more ruthless in deciding who is gonna make it / be given the chance
• can we speed up the pathway, e.g. my “one loan too many” article in the summer.  Did Vyner need to go on loan last season to Aberdeen having played 30+ games at this level for Rotherham?
• can we keep a stronger u23 squad so that they can backfill during injury crises, e.g. Pring, Nurse, Morton, even Conway, might’ve been better back-up than Towler, Z.Smith, S.Bell etc.
• can we set a playing philosophy throughout the club from first team down 
• can we review contracts regularly to ensure our players don’t get picked off too early.  I appreciate this is hard in some cases, e.g. Kelly.

None of these are black and white / must do’s, but they are the guard rails that we work within, straying outside when absolutely necessary.

This approach would dramatically cut wage bill and amortisation, and would give City an identity.  By cutting costs you give yourself less need to sell players because of financial reasons.  That is the vicious circle we have gotten into.

In essence what is the Strategy?  Because as i sit here today I have no idea.  What we have been told in the past is lip service, because it hasn’t been followed.

Opportunity to invest in experienced players that would progress the model of play (identity). The identity needs technical skill a core of players is recruited with skills that meet the needs of the identity -  cultural architects - They are developed and recruited. The central midfield is a unit requires its architects, the centre backs area unit it requires an architect. 

 

[Phileas Fogg]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think you’ve hit the nail on the head, all about expectations, patience and progression....and then communication of strategy.

For me, there are several questions that need answering if we are to take that approach, e.g.

• will we buy-in youth (u23) or experience to plug gaps in the first team at a point in time
• will we recruit youth to fill gaps in the development chain, e.g. Bakinson, Massengo 
• re the above, will we be more ruthless in deciding who is gonna make it / be given the chance
• can we speed up the pathway, e.g. my “one loan too many” article in the summer.  Did Vyner need to go on loan last season to Aberdeen having played 30+ games at this level for Rotherham?
• can we keep a stronger u23 squad so that they can backfill during injury crises, e.g. Pring, Nurse, Morton, even Conway, might’ve been better back-up than Towler, Z.Smith, S.Bell etc.
• can we set a playing philosophy throughout the club from first team down 
• can we review contracts regularly to ensure our players don’t get picked off too early.  I appreciate this is hard in some cases, e.g. Kelly.

None of these are black and white / must do’s, but they are the guard rails that we work within, straying outside when absolutely necessary.

This approach would dramatically cut wage bill and amortisation, and would give City an identity.  By cutting costs you give yourself less need to sell players because of financial reasons.  That is the vicious circle we have gotten into.

In essence what is the Strategy?  Because as i sit here today I have no idea.  What we have been told in the past is lip service, because it hasn’t been followed.

Agreed. Good points above. It’s a lovely idea, but I think in reality supporters would grow tired of it.

I can understand the appeal - we’ve got a lopsided squad of players. Some of them look disinterested. We have no playing identity, random tactics, a manager who looks out of his depth and a deeply unpopular CEO in Ashton. Having 11 honest academy local lads playing for the shirt and giving their all looks attractive compared to that, even if league finishes aren’t as strong.

It’s been done to death but Brentford have the blueprint for creating a competitive side without parachute payments. What Brentford seem to do better than us is pull the trigger on ‘gambles’ (ie Toney, Watkins) and get them right. We seem to dither and either the similar type signings don’t live up to initial expectation (O’Dowda for example) or we miss them completely from under our nose (Watkins, Bowen).

That said, it’s easy for the grass to look greener. I suspect several clubs we compete with had admiration for the way we bought Brownhill along. He’s quite a Brentford type signing.

The other factor is London. For many young players, English or international, living in London is far more aspirational than Bristol. That gives Brentford tremendous pulling power.

Gone off on a bit of a tangent here - but in summary, I think a team of well scouted players with potential (ala Brentford) supplemented with youth/academy players (Vyner, Semenyo) is probably the way to go. Our academy is getting there - it’s our recruitment and recruitment identity that needs work.

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Opportunity to invest in experienced players that would progress the model of play (identity). The identity needs technical skill a core of players is recruited with skills that meet the needs of the identity -  cultural architects - They are developed and recruited. The central midfield is a unit requires its architects, the centre backs area unit it requires an architect. 

 

Bullet 1.

4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Agreed. Good points above. It’s a lovely idea, but I think in reality supporters would grow tired of it.

I can understand the appeal - we’ve got a lopsided squad of players. Some of them look disinterested. We have no playing identity, random tactics, a manager who looks out of his depth and a deeply unpopular CEO in Ashton. Having 11 honest academy local lads playing for the shirt and giving their all looks attractive compared to that, even if league finishes aren’t as strong.

It’s been done to death but Brentford have the blueprint for creating a competitive side without parachute payments. What Brentford seem to do better than us is pull the trigger on ‘gambles’ (ie Toney, Watkins) and get them right. We seem to dither and either the similar type signings don’t live up to initial expectation (O’Dowda for example) or we miss them completely from under our nose (Watkins, Bowen).

That said, it’s easy for the grass to look greener. I suspect several clubs we compete with had admiration for the way we bought Brownhill along. He’s quite a Brentford type signing.

The other factor is London. For many young players, English or international, living in London is far more aspirational than Bristol. That gives Brentford tremendous pulling power.

Gone off on a bit of a tangent here - but in summary, I think a team of well scouted players with potential (ala Brentford) supplemented with youth/academy players (Vyner, Semenyo) is probably the way to go. Our academy is getting there - it’s our recruitment and recruitment identity that needs work.

With any plan / strategy, you have to execute it well.

Our tiredness as fans currently is because either there is no plan, we aren’t executing it properly, or the plan was poorly conceived in the first place.

Brentford is a good model, being well executed.  Brentford have a B Team model too.  Coventry and Barnsley are starting to evolve theirs too, and are different to Brentford, nor are they London, albeit Yorkshire and Midlands.

Your last paragraph is exactly it!  Recruitment is our “epic fail”.

[The Bard]

9 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think you’ve hit the nail on the head, all about expectations, patience and progression....and then communication of strategy.

For me, there are several questions that need answering if we are to take that approach, e.g.

• will we buy-in youth (u23) or experience to plug gaps in the first team at a point in time
• will we recruit youth to fill gaps in the development chain, e.g. Bakinson, Massengo 
• re the above, will we be more ruthless in deciding who is gonna make it / be given the chance
• can we speed up the pathway, e.g. my “one loan too many” article in the summer.  Did Vyner need to go on loan last season to Aberdeen having played 30+ games at this level for Rotherham?
• can we keep a stronger u23 squad so that they can backfill during injury crises, e.g. Pring, Nurse, Morton, even Conway, might’ve been better back-up than Towler, Z.Smith, S.Bell etc.
• can we set a playing philosophy throughout the club from first team down 
• can we review contracts regularly to ensure our players don’t get picked off too early.  I appreciate this is hard in some cases, e.g. Kelly.

None of these are black and white / must do’s, but they are the guard rails that we work within, straying outside when absolutely necessary.

This approach would dramatically cut wage bill and amortisation, and would give City an identity.  By cutting costs you give yourself less need to sell players because of financial reasons.  That is the vicious circle we have gotten into.

In essence what is the Strategy?  Because as i sit here today I have no idea.  What we have been told in the past is lip service, because it hasn’t been followed.

I would suggest a '3 team' strategy. Pat Lam said early on he wanted 3 players per position. This is a logic that is hard to argue with.

An A team of proven Championship players on appropriate wages (Kalas, Bentley, Williams etc). We have a couple in this group that are paid the wages but don't meet the criteria.  

A B Team comprising of Progressive types with some experience and potential to become proven players at this level (Vyner, Semenyo, O'Leary) and players who are past their best but can still do a job (Rowe).   Wages should reflect their 'squad player' status.

A C team with promising youngsters who can be introduced slowly and given experience when needed (Towler, Edwards brothers, Bell).  They would need to regularly train with the 1st team.

To fit this you would be looking at spending money on an 'A' Team Right back and centre half plus maybe a forward (although Martin is on 'A' Team wages he is clearly past his best).  There would also be room for 4 or 5 B teamers. 

Your point about under 23s is good and they need to make the decision about what is best for each player on the one hand balanced with the need to have a 'C' Team ready for cover on the other.  Logic would've said this season that one of Nurse or Pring would stay whilst the other went out on loan for exampe. One thing I can't see happening again is the Vyner nonsense which was due to his pathway being blocked by loanees.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, The Bard said:

I would suggest a '3 team' strategy. Pat Lam said early on he wanted 3 players per position. This is a logic that is hard to argue with.

An A team of proven Championship players on appropriate wages (Kalas, Bentley, Williams etc). We have a couple in this group that are paid the wages but don't meet the criteria.  

A B Team comprising of Progressive types with some experience and potential to become proven players at this level (Vyner, Semenyo, O'Leary) and players who are past their best but can still do a job (Rowe).   Wages should reflect their 'squad player' status.

A C team with promising youngsters who can be introduced slowly and given experience when needed (Towler, Edwards brothers, Bell).  They would need to regularly train with the 1st team.

To fit this you would be looking at spending money on an 'A' Team Right back and centre half plus maybe a forward (although Martin is on 'A' Team wages he is clearly past his best).  There would also be room for 4 or 5 B teamers. 

Your point about under 23s is good and they need to make the decision about what is best for each player on the one hand balanced with the need to have a 'C' Team ready for cover on the other.  Logic would've said this season that one of Nurse or Pring would stay whilst the other went out on loan for exampe. One thing I can't see happening again is the Vyner nonsense which was due to his pathway being blocked by loanees.

If we haven't got something along these lines already then I’d be amazed.  I have one for City (may that’s not a surprise ), I even have potential targets for areas I’ve identified as gaps, e.g for a bit of succession planning.

If we haven’t, well, it’s hardly a surprise recruitment is a failing process.

[The Bard]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

If we haven't got something along these lines already then I’d be amazed.  I have one for City (may that’s not a surprise ), I even have potential targets for areas I’ve identified as gaps, e.g for a bit of succession planning.

If we haven’t, well, it’s hardly a surprise recruitment is a failing process.

I'd be amazed if we have.  What the hell were they working to before?  

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, The Bard said:

I'd be amazed if we have.  What the hell were they working to before?  

If you’re right, then grounds to sack MA and the Recruitment Team imho.

[big dosser]

one example on recruitment for me is,i wonder how many posters on here noticed ivan toney 2 years ago,i would guess a very high percentage which is why i think are recruitment team is a bit shabby as they seem to miss a lot of lower league up and coming players or just don't wont to gamble

[marmite]

Put yourself in the position of an academy youngster. You sign for your home club academy. You develop, go out on loan, return and eventually creep into the first team squad. You get 15 mins here and there and then the dream. A first team start.  You obviously want to stay and get promoted with us but we are mid table. A prem club comes calling and offer to treble your wages although you know you wont get 1st team football.  MA will want to sell you cos its cash in, thats his job. Here is the dilemma of playing our academy. 

[Lrrr]

25 minutes ago, big dosser said:

one example on recruitment for me is,i wonder how many posters on here noticed ivan toney 2 years ago,i would guess a very high percentage which is why i think are recruitment team is a bit shabby as they seem to miss a lot of lower league up and coming players or just don't wont to gamble

Well we saw the reaction on here when we signed 'one's for the future', if we'd signed Toney a few years ago do you think he'd have been given a couple of seasons to make the step up or be hounded by fans who slate the club after 1 season if he was struggling to make it?

[big dosser]

42 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Well we saw the reaction on here when we signed 'one's for the future', if we'd signed Toney a few years ago do you think he'd have been given a couple of seasons to make the step up or be hounded by fans who slate the club after 1 season if he was struggling to make it?

very good point it seems many has lost that bit of patience you need with players and have to high expectations. 

[MATT BCFC]

I honestly think this season might benefit us longer term. Young players are only going to get better by playing and lots of our younger players have been able to do that this season. 

Quite a few of them look like they have the potential to play in the premiership to me. 

If we could identify a philosophy in terms of playing style like someone like Ajax. I think we could have success with this model and also be decent to watch!