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IGNORED

LJ didn't get credit


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1 minute ago, pnefcok said:

To be fair I remember watching PNE beat Bristol City 5-0 under Lee Johnson and you were horrendous on the night, but LJ seemed to recover from it relatively quickly.

From the outside looking in, whilst I think Johnson underachieved given the resources that were available to him in the transfer market, I don't see how the Bristol City hierarchy thought appointing his assistant would be an upgrade, or improve your fortunes on the pitch. It's just appointing another puppet.

We, unfortunately, have a track record of doing this and not learning from our errors, which are numerous. Circa Millen post Gary Johnson in 2011.

Coppell, in my opinion, was not a Yes-man, and scared Lansdown away from appointed any kind of opinionated manager, hence the foremost supposed friction under Cotts.

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3 minutes ago, pnefcok said:

To be fair I remember watching PNE beat Bristol City 5-0 under Lee Johnson and you were horrendous on the night, but LJ seemed to recover from it relatively quickly.

From the outside looking in, whilst I think Johnson underachieved given the resources that were available to him in the transfer market, I don't see how the Bristol City hierarchy thought appointing his assistant would be an upgrade, or improve your fortunes on the pitch. It's just appointing another puppet.

I am struggling to think of any time appointing the assistant as the boss after the boss has left for under-achieving has ever worked out well. I am happy to be proven wrong but the evidence at Championship level from both Bournemouth and City bears that out. (And yes I know Rooney had started coaching at Derby before Cocu was replaced but it was only latterly that Rooney was coaching and not specifically brought in as Cocu’s assistant).

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In response to the OP. LJ got plenty of credit. He still does for the job he done here. And he was the right appointment at the time. But it was time for a change, even the iron lady had her time. He had his time and it was up, it is football after all.

We may well see an LJ Sunderland above us next season. 

Holden was cheap option for covid hopefully, and not MA ensuring he hasn't go to battle a real leader.

Plenty of nerds on here know about the money, but surely picking Holden means when that big loss of a few years back drops of for ffp, we can 'go for it' because we haven't spent this season. 

Who really knows, I'm sure if Holden paid off, MA smuggery would have been a sight to behold. It hasn't (shock) and he looks like a t I t.  

 

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5 hours ago, Fuber said:

For example (plus Academy products that LJ rarely if ever played outside of cup games); Engvall, Bakinson, Walsh, Eliasson (on here as we was criminally under-used), Djuric, Magnússon, Hegeler, O'Dowda, Pato, Wright, Vyner, Lucic, Eisa, Watkins, Hunt, Weimann, Semenyo, Palmer, Massengo, Wells, Nagy, Rowe, Adelakun, Szmodics, Williams, Gilmartin, O'Leary, are all players of note that align with one of the aformentioned factors. (Player in Bold, are those who either left for the same/less than the amount signed, contacts end this season, or would be unlikely to recoup outlay spent to sign).

Sorry to basically miss most of this post but I query whether a number of these- not all but a number- are/were poor signings or were somewhat poorly deployed- not least by LJ (which would put blame on him). Bit of both certainly possible.

From a playing POV I mean- value and profit on disposal differs of course but you need a mix.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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8 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

LJ had his issues but was always reliable for a top-half finish, we never had a defeat on this scale on his watch.

Never had a defeat of this scale on his watch?

Losing 5-0 to Preston was lower than yesterday. At least Watford are full of quality. 

8 hours ago, ashton_fan said:

LJ had his issues but was always reliable for a top-half finish, we never had a defeat on this scale on his watch.

Never had a defeat of this scale on his watch?

Losing 5-0 to Preston was lower than yesterday. At least Watford are full of quality. 

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Johnson got credit for stabilising us. 

We we’re going backwards at the end of his time in charge & most of us wished for a new manager capable of taking us to the new level. 

Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody wanted Dean Holden. 

We expected better & still do. 

I said when he got hired, when it inevitably goes badly they won’t sack him for ages because it will have proved us, the fans, right.

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13 hours ago, RedRock said:

Yep. LJ had over 4 years to blend Ashton’s signings into a team and sort Ashton out. He had the ear of Uncle Steve so should have exerted some influence over the power that Steve allowed Ashton

Holden is just a continuation of Ashton’s empire but has lesser power or influence on the situation having virtually no experience of managing downwards, let alone upwards. I suspect, also, he has far less access to or influence over Steve.

 

We’re an absolute shambles and now way past a point where even a DofF can sort us out. 

Ashton signings, I don't like the bloke either but to say all the players were his signings and not LJ's is nonsense. 

No way would LJ who as you say had the ear of SL been just given players and told to get on with it. He is a much stronger character than that. 

I do believe the way it works is LJ would say the type of player he needs, the scouting team would come up with reccomendations, LJ would say yes to a certain player and MA would try to do the deal.

 

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14 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I’ve made this point a few times:

Mariappa

Brunt

Martin

Mawson

Sessegnon

Williams

Lansbury

Thats seven”first team” players that Johnson didn’t sign. I’d also bet my bollocks he’d have kept Korey Smith. It was time for LJ to go, but Holden had had opportunity and funds to get the squad he wanted. This is more on DH than it is on LJ when you see what he’s had opportunity to bring in.

I think LJ would have signed Williams.

And yeah certainly he would have wanted us to do everything to keep Korey. What an awful mistake not wanting to keep him but signing Brunt and now Lansbury

 

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LJ had all the credit he deserved when he had us playing great football but his issue was he couldn't create consistency. Unfortunately the board have found consistency in his replacement, consistently shit.

Just because Holden is shit as a manager it doesn't change that LJ's tactics were awful in his last season as was the football. He deserved to go, what we didn't deserve was his assistant to take over, the fans wanted Hughton, the board refused because Ashton thinks he knows better and now its clear to see the fans even know better than the man who is supposed to be doing his job. Ashton cost us progression in his poor appointment, he needs to be held accountable and sacked along with Holden and a proper manager with a vision needs to be appointed if we want to progress. 

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12 hours ago, MarcusX said:

Not having it. Lees team played some truly fantastic stuff at times. It got stale and I think he lost his way but its rubbish to say he shouldn’t have been appointed. 

Who might we have appointed instead five years ago, if we had been recruiting more thoroughly than from people in football SL knew well?

We don't know who might have taken the job, or how they would've done (good or bad). Sliding doors and all that.

Lee's average finish across more than 4 years was 12th, when SL was looking for minimum 6th. There will have been someone that could do better than that (not that SL could spot him).

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1 hour ago, Fordy62 said:

Never had a defeat of this scale on his watch?

Losing 5-0 to Preston was lower than yesterday. At least Watford are full of quality. 

Never had a defeat of this scale on his watch?

Losing 5-0 to Preston was lower than yesterday. At least Watford are full of quality. 

Yes, but following that defeat we went on a long unbeaten run, whereas this time can't see anything other than us to continue losing and plummeting down the table

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9 hours ago, Fuber said:

LJ was also responsible for;

- Initially ditching the pillars, as managers have sign-off on any signings (Wells, Watkins, Williams, and others).

- No current identity for the club to follow, which was a symptomatic of his final 24 months in charge

- Large lack of trust in youth (i.e. the supposed spat with Tinnion in 2019 as was rumoured on here), highlighted by lack of gametime for said yoiuth players from the bench and in cup games.

- For the most part did not develop players - which is the single biggest metric by which he should be measured, as per the model this was the key aspect in which he had to perform; I'll briefly outline;

I.e. Kelly regressed slightly when playing senior football, before Bournemouth signed him (on the basis of his U21 England performnances).

Reid found consistency in a forward role once enforced to said change - credit LJ for being brave enough to try that in season and it worked.

Brownhill developed through natural play-time and maturing, full credit, now fulfilling his potential at Burnley and playing well.

Webster was a single season - in that regard we struck lucky in the fact Ipswich's treatment room is more cursed than ours, and that Adam wasn't here where Rolls is now in charge.

However most other signings and/or academy products were ditched by the wayside, not given a chance, or sold out barely having featured, loaned out for development, injury prone, or already at their 'peak', in terms of on-pitch performances.

For example (plus Academy products that LJ rarely if ever played outside of cup games); Engvall, Bakinson, Walsh, Eliasson (on here as we was criminally under-used), Djuric, Magnússon, Hegeler, O'Dowda, Pato, Wright, Vyner, Lucic, Eisa, Watkins, Hunt, Weimann, Semenyo, Palmer, Massengo, Wells, Nagy, Rowe, Adelakun, Szmodics, Williams, Gilmartin, O'Leary, are all players of note that align with one of the aformentioned factors. (Player in Bold, are those who either left for the same/less than the amount signed, contacts end this season, or would be unlikely to recoup outlay spent to sign).

Of those, 'development' signings, i.e. players that were supposed to improve under LJ, did not even get a chance to play, if barely - such as Engvall, Bakinson, Walsh, Lucic, Massengo, Adelakun, and Szmodics, were all players that could arguable be viewed as such deals.

All of them failed to improve the team by some metric compared to players previous to LJ's arrival, or get game-time ahead of other signings LJ made during his tenure under Ashton.

That means in terms of players that increased their value, markedly improved in some metric - there aren't many. No player at this club, signed during the LJ era, have sustained a level of performance greater than their first 3-4 month period at the club. I'd go as far as to say that in terms of individual player performances and entrusting Youth, Holden's almost done as much as LJ in terms of player development in his first 6 months, than LJ managed over his entire four and a half season period, albeit enforced, i.e. Vyner, Bakinson, Semenyo have all actually been entrusted with first team duties.

When you compare this, in addition to - and this is the key point for me - the shear increase in playing staff wages - during LJ's tenure, the - ultimately minor - table position increments are essentially, in my opinion, useless.

We had most momentum post the Cup run, and haven't got back up to those levels of performances since.

To summarise - LJ was solid in his first two years, he stumbled upon a system that actually suited the squad, was easy on the eye, and got fans on side.

He then proceeded to bin it, started signing more experience players where he refused to trust younger players, focused on countering the opposition - and in doing so - eliminated ANY KIND OF IDENTITY TO THE WAY WE PLAY.

Our entire situation as current is as a result of LJ's mismanagment and playing style in the final two years of his reign, Ashton supposed scouting network, and the latter catastrophic **** up that lead to Holden's appointment after three weeks of deliberation.

 

As I said LJ had his issues, but whereas people were annoyed we weren't getting in the playoffs in a matter of months after he left they're worrying about relegation, we're slipping back into the situation we had with previous managers in this League, ie Cotts, SOD, McInnes, Millen etc.. LJ was far from perfect but did a decent job compared to previous managers we've had at this level.

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44 minutes ago, ashton_fan said:

Yes, but following that defeat we went on a long unbeaten run, whereas this time can't see anything other than us to continue losing and plummeting down the table

At the time of that defeat could anyone have honestly said that they could see a long undefeated run? Fact is, he should’ve been sacked. And Holden should be now. 

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We should of appointed Neil Warnock five years ago and replaced him with a top flight manager after a couple of years to keep us in the Premier league. That was never going to happen under this management structure but it would of been the way to go.

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7 hours ago, Robin-hugh-blind said:

In response to the OP. LJ got plenty of credit. He still does for the job he done here. And he was the right appointment at the time. But it was time for a change, even the iron lady had her time. He had his time and it was up, it is football after all.

We may well see an LJ Sunderland above us next season. 

Holden was cheap option for covid hopefully, and not MA ensuring he hasn't go to battle a real leader.

Plenty of nerds on here know about the money, but surely picking Holden means when that big loss of a few years back drops of for ffp, we can 'go for it' because we haven't spent this season. 

Who really knows, I'm sure if Holden paid off, MA smuggery would have been a sight to behold. It hasn't (shock) and he looks like a t I t.  

 

I don’t get this Covid times appointment. Any manager applying for the role would of been fully aware of Covid and understood that we can’t just go out and buy without selling during the first year of the job.
At the time it was looking that fans would not be returning this season at least. So they would of known that the main income would not be available and all clubs would be in the same position and tightening their belts. 
Mick McCarthy was rumoured to wanting the job, and he took the Cardiff job on an interim bases until the season end. I would think he is on less money than DH and his team at the moment. 
The appointment had nothing to do with Covid and everything to do with the club’s mentality. I struggle to think of any club in league 3  that would of employed DH in a managers role let mid to top half championship team. 
Remove Ashton and then we will push on IMO 
 

Edited by RedorDead BCFC
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1 minute ago, Elruliri said:

We should of appointed Neil Warnock five years ago and replaced him with a top flight manager after a couple of years to keep us in the Premier league. That was never going to happen under this management structure but it would of been the way to go.

The history 'we' have with Warnock would make that as controversial an appointment as anyone else.

Understand the sentiment, but a few poor results and people would be straight on his back.

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2 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

Johnson got credit for stabilising us. 

We we’re going backwards at the end of his time in charge & most of us wished for a new manager capable of taking us to the new level. 

Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody wanted Dean Holden. 

We expected better & still do. 

I said when he got hired, when it inevitably goes badly they won’t sack him for ages because it will have proved us, the fans, right.

The board must now genuinely fear relegation, if not this season then next season with Holden and the two dinosaurs at the helm. Are the Lansdown family going to run that risk and all the financial implications that will come through sheer stubbornness? Maybe they would? To be honest Nothing would actually surprise me at this club anymore..

Edited by bris red
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15 minutes ago, RedorDead BCFC said:

I don’t get this Covid times appointment. Any manager applying for the role would of been fully aware of Covid and understood that we can’t just go out and buy without selling during the first year of the job.
At the time it was looking that fans would not be returning this season at least. So they would of known that the main income would not be available and all clubs would be in the same position and tightening their belts. 
Mick McCarthy was rumoured to wanting the job, and he took the Cardiff job on an interim bases until the season end. I would think he is on less money than DH and his team at the moment. 
The appointment had nothing to do with Covid and everything to do with the club’s mentality. I struggle to think of any club in league 3  that would of employed DH in a managers role let mid to top half championship team. 
Remove Ashton and then we will push on IMO 
 

Indeed. Even if covid never happened we still wouldn’t of appointed a McCarthy or a Hughton and I genuinely believe that. We appointed Holden because he was the best fit for whatever this strange and quite frankly ridiculous set up that we have at this club headed by the complete cock that is Mark Ashton!!

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17 hours ago, 2015 said:

He did an ok job, but we cannot compare what is happening now with Johnson as Holden should never have even got the job.

He was rightfully sacked, but not replaced with the right man.

The football we have played this season started from his way of playing

For a while he did do an ‘ok’ job and to be fair he, like Holden, did it with one hand tied behind his back. That said he was given way too much time and should have been gone much earlier.

The problem is that whenever he had been sacked we would have ended up with another yes man.

If Holden does end up being exited soon, put all you can on Michael Appleton - it is written in the stars.

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3 hours ago, Carey 6 said:

Johnson got credit for stabilising us. 

We we’re going backwards at the end of his time in charge & most of us wished for a new manager capable of taking us to the new level. 

Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody wanted Dean Holden. 

We expected better & still do. 

I said when he got hired, when it inevitably goes badly they won’t sack him for ages because it will have proved us, the fans, right.

Sadly, I think you may  be proved correct.

Edited by ScottishRed
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2 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

The only time LJ had us playing decent football was in his second season, the only reason this happened was the team was still made up predominantly of SC’s players. 

 

The second season is often the peak for most coaches nowadays - hope for Deano yet - and if they are not flying or successful by this point, they are unlikely to be much good.

Lee said three windows to "get where we want to be" and that half season, August 17 to the Jan 18 window was peak LJ (even though he finished 8th the season after). 

Lee rode the wave of the Fielding Flint Pack Korey L1 winning backbone that SO'D and Cotts gave us, and the money that Kodjia bought us, adding Tammy, Reid, Brownhill and then Webster himself (being generous). We shine briefly, but fall away (17/18); then play unattractively but get results  (18/19); then play unattractively and begin to regress.

We regress as the LJ/Ashton "well" ran dry. The SO'D/Cotterill gifts have gone, and the good ones that LJ/Ashton brought us are sold. What comes in is worse than that which leaves; there are no "Tammys" no "Reids" no "Brownhills" no "Websters."

The "well" runs dry, and all we can get is "Wells." And Brunt.

 

Then Deano takes over these dregs. Add an injury crisis/fiasco, and here we are. Lee did better than Deano, but that was partly the blessing of good timing.

 

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6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Sorry to basically miss most of this post but I query whether a number of these- not all but a number- are/were poor signings or were somewhat poorly deployed- not least by LJ (which would put blame on him). Bit of both certainly possible.

From a playing POV I mean- value and profit on disposal differs of course but you need a mix.

Agreed.

However the fact of the matter is LJ didn't objectively improve any of said players. I'd also argue the fees to sign said players were overpayments, I.e. Hunt as an example. Especially when you consider we lost Ayling for around £300k by the same metric.

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