gavlin Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 Only question that nobody has raised is will we pay the right salary for a good manager. Our track record of managers over the last ten years seems to be get a manager on the cheap as a major factor in hiring one !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ciderwithtommy Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 2 minutes ago, Rob k said: On what basis is it ruled out? I pretty much got laughing emojis and a no as a response tbh. From previous convos about Him more generally, and before Holden leaving, his stock is still regarded very highly, I rate him but I was surprised that a few of the real big boys have spoken to him about his views and plans. Reading between the lines there are bigger fish to fry for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon bristol Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 One look down the list of names of managers in the last 25 years is a good enough reason to be pessimistic. There are 2 stand outs, john ward had a good season, the rest all merge into a pretty uninspiring list. And now the bloke in charge will have another go at getting it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 2 hours ago, Silvio Dante said: I’m seeing a lot of comments that we may struggle to attract a decent candidate for the next head coach. I get it, but am completely in the opposite camp for the following reasons: The Job In English football terms, for most coaches the top 10 jobs are unattainable and the next five barely attainable. If you look at the initial list, even Howe would only have Newcastle, WBA, Fulham, Palace and Burnley (if not for prior) looking at him. From a championship level, we are one of the top ten jobs when you look at potential, financial position, stadium infrastructure and owner. There aren’t many jobs in football. Why would anyone on that list rule this job out? It’s probably one of the best attainable jobs available The Opportunity Are we less attractive than the summer? Yes, undoubtedly. Any job is better in the summer. But this is as close to a free hit as a coach could get. We need 12 more points and any half decent boss should feel confident of getting us there. He then has time to also fully assess the squad, and work out what he needs in the summer. With some established earners OOC (Hunt, Pato, Weimann, Fam, Lansbury, Watkins, Baker, Rowe), there is room to free up wages. So you have a clear idea on the weaknesses in the squad and can address them in the summer - much like with Cotts recruitment MAs diminishing influence This is hope, but founded hope - as I know anyone’s answer to why coaches won’t come here is Ashton. The big takeaway for me from the last 48 hours has been SL appears to have grabbed the reins, taken the decisions - and quite key on RB confirmed MAs strengths, but also addressed the weaknesses (trading, the football side). This leaves me with some confidence that although MA will still be here, the new boss will have far more room to influence recruitment and playing matters. Might be wrong, but I sense the blocker may not be a blocker. I also think we won’t appoint a mate of MAs and SL may want “profile” this time. Overall This is a job where you can go into an established championship club with a supportive owner (DH was backed with players). You get first use of new training facilities, an ability to assess a squad in the remaining games which due to contracts you have scope to reshape in the summer. The points target should be attainable for any decent boss. The one perceived blocker may not be such an issue. So, with all that considered, why the hell would you not? Good post which I totally agree with, sure will upset a few who like to look for the negatives. I not sure how much the MA influence is a figment of OTIB and as SL said an easy target. The only fact is very few or none on here will actually know what negative involvement MA has and even if he does, with SL appearing to have to get hands on (if hes not anyway), after the Holden debacle, I am sure MA's job will be changed to accommodate the caliber of manager required. My theory on last summer is nothing to do with managers lining up to say they hate MA, but after going for the likes of Houghton, covid caused a re-think in terms of outlay on new players, DH promised good attacking football with a few additions to the squad others wanted to spend much more so they went for a lower risk option, never thinking it could go so wrong and maybe without injuries, they would have got away with it. MODS - can I please have more likes as keep running out of them in these busy times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted February 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 Just now, sh1t_ref_again said: MODS - can I please have more likes as keep running out of them in these busy times If you become a OTIB Supporter for the bargain price of £5 per year you can have as many as you like, and you also keep the forum running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sh1t_ref_again Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: If you become a OTIB Supporter for the bargain price of £5 per year you can have as many as you like, and you also keep the forum running. Tried to like but would not let me, so will find where I need to pay up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted February 17, 2021 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, sh1t_ref_again said: Tried to like but would not let me, so will find where I need to pay up Got it working now then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliftonCliff Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 56 minutes ago, spudski said: And that's why I think we aren't such an attractive proposition. On paper from the outside looking in, it looks good. As you say...you shouldn't need to interview managers as such...their reputation precedes them. The reason, imo, why we interview so thoroughly is because of the way we work. Even MA said the pool is smaller because of it. Unless we dramatically change our direction, not many will be willing to work under the remit. And that's why imo, the like of Houghton wasn't taken on. If the remit was to just be a mid table team...it's possible. But the pathway of blooding Academy and previous loans, mixed with rough diamonds, whilst selling our best.... isn't one of how to gain promotion. That's what's expected. Coach under our remit, whilst expecting promotion. Coaches with experience will know that's not likely. SL got stung with Coppell. He promised one thing, then didn't play ball. So he walked. The interviews imo...aren't so much to find out about the applicants. It's more to tell them how we work...and to ask them whether they are willing to work within it. Things would have to dramatically change in how we work, for us to be such a wonderful proposition. It seems like a contradiction, but actually what's confusing is that BOTH arguments are correct. The off-field progress with infrastructure and facilities, relative stability of finances and ownership, and so on - all perfectly true. Against that, I also think just about everything you've said above is also correct. So, prospective managers, including, probably, some pretty high-profile individuals, look at the first list of plusses and think it's a goer. Then they start talking to SL & MA about the constraints they will have to work within, and the expectation levels, and they have second thoughts. It's not achievable. 'Simple as' - as they say. Or rather, if it can be achieved, as Brentford may be about to demonstrate, it takes a very long time and an awful lot of things have to be spot-on, including a senior management group all consistently working together to the same agenda and, above all, player (and manager) recruitment. And that's where, at BCFC, it all starts to unravel. Two steps forward, one step back. And it will go on doing so, unless something in that state of affairs changes, and at the moment I can't see where, realistically, that change can possibly come from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Island Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 12 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: If you become a OTIB Supporter for the bargain price of £5 per year you can have as many as you like, and you also keep the forum running. Not everyone can afford this especially now. Sad that we have to link influence to ability to pay for it, rather than appealing to the more affluent OTIBers’ altruism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, Hare Island said: Not everyone can afford this especially now. Sad that we have to link influence to ability to pay for it, rather than appealing to the more affluent OTIBers’ altruism. But the forum doesn’t pay for itself.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeRed Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 2 hours ago, JonDolman said: Agree with most of the OP. Only thing is I'm still struggling to understand is this theory that our head coach does not choose who we sign. Which of the summer signings was not a Holden signing? He seemed like he wanted all of them to me. There's a lot of spin from Ashton about both Lee and DH "signing off" on all transfers and no one comes in that they don't want. I think though it's like you come in from work and you're partner says " there is beef stew for dinner". and on seeing your face drop says "if you don't want it make yourself a sandwich or go without" So you "sign off" on the stew as it's better than the sandwich But really you wanted Chicken Curry with poppodams and all the pickles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rossi the Robin Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 SL being a patient boss with regards to giving managers a chance may p1ss people off on here and he gets boatloads for being stubborn etc However, that must make the job very attractive when a vacancy comes up so it’s swings and roundabouts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 43 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said: It seems like a contradiction, but actually what's confusing is that BOTH arguments are correct. The off-field progress with infrastructure and facilities, relative stability of finances and ownership, and so on - all perfectly true. Against that, I also think just about everything you've said above is also correct. So, prospective managers, including, probably, some pretty high-profile individuals, look at the first list of plusses and think it's a goer. Then they start talking to SL & MA about the constraints they will have to work within, and the expectation levels, and they have second thoughts. It's not achievable. 'Simple as' - as they say. Or rather, if it can be achieved, as Brentford may be about to demonstrate, it takes a very long time and an awful lot of things have to be spot-on, including a senior management group all consistently working together to the same agenda and, above all, player (and manager) recruitment. And that's where, at BCFC, it all starts to unravel. Two steps forward, one step back. And it will go on doing so, unless something in that state of affairs changes, and at the moment I can't see where, realistically, that change can possibly come from. Exactly how I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 2 hours ago, JonDolman said: Agree with most of the OP. Only thing is I'm still struggling to understand is this theory that our head coach does not choose who we sign. Which of the summer signings was not a Holden signing? He seemed like he wanted all of them to me. Judging by your new profile pic, you’re going for a manager with a tan? Jason Tindall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
City1984 Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 1 hour ago, mozo said: I think ironically, in one sense Holden's reign leaves us in a better position...sounds mad but bear with me... I'm happy to make a bold assumption that Holden's mandate was to make use of the young talent on the books. even if he had some autonomy in the matter, he probably used it as his USP to get an edge in the application stage. Holden did that. The big positive from his short tenure is the fact that Bakinson, Semenyo, Massengo, Vyner, Moore and to a lesser extent Edwards and Towler, have all been tested now at Championship level. So whereas Hughton last summer could have said that he's not committed to playing these lads unless they really impress him in training, the 'applicants' now can all give SL, JL, MA an appraisal of our young uns with actual evidence to support their view. Cook, for example, can say "I've seen Moore and he just isn't ready, so I'll want a new CB" or "Semenyo hasn't been playing in the right position but he's one that can make it..." etc, whereas last year there was no reference point. It's easier for a potential gaffer to run the rule over our squad then, but also with so many OOC players, they can also easily clear out dead wood and bring in their own players (within a restrictive budget now doubt). We're a different proposition now. Like that take on things. It has made me feel a little bit more positive about our position. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 14 minutes ago, Southport Red said: The variant of fox, chicken and grain exercise that we run is: “you have 24 central midfielders, but you can only choose three...” Answer: You play a striker a defender and one other. 1 hour ago, JonDolman said: Holden told Ashton or Ashton told Holden? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamite Red Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 At a glance you would think we would be attractive but dig deeper and you quickly realise you have little influence on recruitment of players and scouting, control of backroom staff and the overall vision. Suddenly it looks a bit of a shit show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrumpylegs Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 2 hours ago, spudski said: Unless we dramatically change our direction, not many will be willing to work under the remit. And that's why imo, the like of Houghton wasn't taken on. If the remit was to just be a mid table team...it's possible. But the pathway of blooding Academy and previous loans, mixed with rough diamonds, whilst selling our best.... isn't one of how to gain promotion. That's what's expected. Coach under our remit, whilst expecting promotion. Coaches with experience will know that's not likely. I don't agree that this is a uniquely Bristol City remit. There is not a team in this league (with the exception of those with parachute payments) that would not require their managers to look for loans, use academy players /'rough diamonds' and sell those players that will bring in £££££'s. This is nothing to do with 'ethos', 'pillars' or any other such B******t - it is simply the only way that clubs can ensure their survival in this league!! The Championship eats money like no other league. Clubs that don't respect this fact do so at their peril!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 Mrs Downend was an attractive proposition when she was 18, but ended up with me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretSam Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 3 hours ago, JonDolman said: Agree with most of the OP. Only thing is I'm still struggling to understand is this theory that our head coach does not choose who we sign. Which of the summer signings was not a Holden signing? He seemed like he wanted all of them to me. As I understand it, on the continent, the way it works is that there is a list of players that are identified by the relevant people - coaches, manager, etc - with more than one identified in each role, then the person responsible goes out to try and get the right person, i.e. does the deal. That person could be MA, who would also input to the shortlisting process, eg by saying "we have £X to spend, that player would be too costly". It's not a single person's decision - I think that's rare at any club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretSam Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 34 minutes ago, CodeRed said: There's a lot of spin from Ashton about both Lee and DH "signing off" on all transfers and no one comes in that they don't want. I think though it's like you come in from work and you're partner says " there is beef stew for dinner". and on seeing your face drop says "if you don't want it make yourself a sandwich or go without" So you "sign off" on the stew as it's better than the sandwich But really you wanted Chicken Curry with poppodams and all the pickles Using this analogy, the key thing is to discuss with your partner first what you want for dinner. If (s)he then says, "we have that beef stew and can't afford a curry", then there's your decision. If (s)he says "OK, what about we have curry tomorrow, as the stew needs eating up?" then that's a different conversation. If the choice is stew or nothing, you'll take stew. But you'd be a plank to get yourself into that position, without communicating what you want. Source: 1 failed marriage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 3 minutes ago, SecretSam said: As I understand it, on the continent, the way it works is that there is a list of players that are identified by the relevant people - coaches, manager, etc - with more than one identified in each role, then the person responsible goes out to try and get the right person, i.e. does the deal. That person could be MA, who would also input to the shortlisting process, eg by saying "we have £X to spend, that player would be too costly". It's not a single person's decision - I think that's rare at any club. My view from info gleaned from various sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynamite Red Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 13 minutes ago, SecretSam said: As I understand it, on the continent, the way it works is that there is a list of players that are identified by the relevant people - coaches, manager, etc - with more than one identified in each role, then the person responsible goes out to try and get the right person, i.e. does the deal. That person could be MA, who would also input to the shortlisting process, eg by saying "we have £X to spend, that player would be too costly". It's not a single person's decision - I think that's rare at any club. Agreed that the model of one man picking a player is outdated and such decisions are done via a committee, no problem with that. The issue is when you are forced to find players to fit one person's strategy or utilising set tools like a database of players and the manager/coach has no say in that process or able to shape that strategy. That is where any respectable candidate will turn their nose up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 50 minutes ago, CodeRed said: There's a lot of spin from Ashton about both Lee and DH "signing off" on all transfers and no one comes in that they don't want. I think though it's like you come in from work and you're partner says " there is beef stew for dinner". and on seeing your face drop says "if you don't want it make yourself a sandwich or go without" So you "sign off" on the stew as it's better than the sandwich But really you wanted Chicken Curry with poppodams and all the pickles With Ashton and his analytics team being so late to recognise and react to talent it’s a bit more like “where’ve you been all night. Your dinner’s in the dog”. “Oh FFS. Where’s the breville”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, Harry said: With Ashton and his analytics team being so late to recognise and react to talent it’s a bit more like “where’ve you been all night. Your dinner’s in the dog”. “Oh FFS. Where’s the breville”. Out of interest how many are in Gilhespy’s Analysis Team? What is their football / football analysis qualification? @Lrrr do you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 1 minute ago, Davefevs said: Out of interest how many are in Gilhespy’s Analysis Team? What is their football / football analysis qualification? @Lrrr do you know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Out of interest how many are in Gilhespy’s Analysis Team? What is their football / football analysis qualification? @Lrrr do you know? Don’t know the numbers. There’s a few of them (judging from LinkedIn). I do know that that Gilhespy is a Leeds fan!!! Maybe @Knightymight have an idea of the numbers employed in the department? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheltons Army Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 7 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Out of interest how many are in Gilhespy’s Analysis Team? What is their football / football analysis qualification? @Lrrr do you know? I’d like to see their work compared to yours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 6 minutes ago, Lrrr said: Elmo? Hes a puppet, fits the criteria! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted February 17, 2021 Report Share Posted February 17, 2021 12 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Out of interest how many are in Gilhespy’s Analysis Team? What is their football / football analysis qualification? @Lrrr do you know? Prozone Course - Level 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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