What can be “destroyed”?

[exAtyeoMax]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

What I'd like to be asked to SL, and hear his explanation, is how he has come to the conclusion that promotion is possible under his system in place?

I'd like to understand how he thinks promotion is possible and expected...using Academy players and returning loans, with a few rough diamonds, and a few experienced heads, under the guidance of coaches that have never won promotion or have experience of doing it. As well as selling your better players and not replacing them properly.

Also...how is a coach going to succeed if he sets about a playing system, but is given players that really don't suit the system.

Often players that are good footballers, but don't necessarily fit a system. Players that can improve on their value, and asked to try and fit in a system. The square peg in round holes syndrome.

It's often like...so and so is a good player, but he doesn't have the attributes to play to this system...but try and coach him into that position. 

For example...imo... we've never replaced Webster. A ball playing defender that can build from the back. 

DaSilva...great player in his own way. But nothing like Bryan in energy, fitness, press, directness etc.

As for our selection of forwards, that's been woefully judged imo.

Since Nketiah...it's almost like anyone available that has scored in the past. A right bag of all-sorts.

The way we recruit has an effect on any system a coach wishes to implement. 

It's the equivalent of being handed a bag of all-sorts and told to mould them some how.

like a bag of Revels.

Basically it's a failure in recruitment, and knowing how to deal with the slight differences in players when they are brought in (coaching/management) 

[Robbored]

I took a far more simplistic view on that particular comment from SL - namely that he wants the bloke ( or gai) to work within the clubs culture and not disrupt the ‘system’ at all.

The culture as far I understand is to use a combination of experienced and younger players developed thru the academy , not ask for added funds as SC did and in order to maintain sustainability any incoming resources via player sales go toward any incoming players. 

Essentially SL is saying that despite being a billionaire he’s not prepared to ‘buy’ his way to the promised land - I’m not so sure that any available potential HC candidates would actually realise that.

[Harry]

24 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

That's very long post just to have a pop at Mark Ashton and Steve Lansdown- why not just say- Steve won't allow MA to allow any Manager a free hand in transfers?

It’s far more than that MRR. There is apparently something that can’t be destroyed. Well, it would seem that the only thing is the recruitment structures. It’s only fair and right of me to make the case across all of the club’s facets and streams and ascertain which area it is that is in danger of destruction. It’s pretty clear, I think. 

[wendyredredrobin]

We've tried a good human, why not try a good manager?

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

40 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Shirt of getting a really top class manager / big name, I really do think Cook is the perfect fit.  In the summer Hughton was my slightly dull and boring 1st choice, whilst secretly I wanted Cook, my 2nd choice, because I think over the longer term I would really have seen it click, and be a super fit for Bristol City.  It’s still a really good fit.  Perversely in a Covid world where fees are gonna be lower, it might be an even better fit, in that he can use his talent eye-d (sic) to get in better players he might not usually be afforded at clubs like Wigan.

Obviously Howe is that real, real top-choice, but I see Cook in a similar vein to G.Johnson and Cotterill.

In my opinion , without my money being involved and FWIW- I think SL should get this man- send his Jet to Southampton airport- fly him over and not let him return until he's agreed to take over.

It's time for a statement of intent just like at Bristol Rugby. Yes the risk is greater, the cost is greater but so are the prizes.

[Alessandro]

SL knows he needs to get in a better calibre manager this time and I hope he will pull the stops out to do so.

As OP says, surely all in the pool we're fishing will work to our "conditions" to a large extent. The only question for me is over transfers.

However, even if it's not admitted publicly - much like has happened over the last few years with people coming and going quietly - any manager worth their salt of the calibre he should get in will doubtless bring with them little changes behind the scenes, analysis, scouting, recruitment.  

It may not be shouted from the roof tops or acknowledged as a change, in order to save face of certain employees of the club - but it has to happen and i'm sure SL knows that. 

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I took a far more simplistic view on that particular comment from SL - namely that he wants the bloke ( or gai) to work within the clubs culture and not disrupt the ‘system’ at all.

The culture as far I understand is to use a combination of experienced and younger players developed thru the academy , not ask for added funds as SC did and in order to maintain sustainability any incoming resources via player sales go toward any incoming players. 

Essentially SL is saying that despite being a billionaire he’s not prepared to ‘buy’ his way to the promised land - I’m not so sure that any available potential HC candidates would actually realise that.

Out of interest - What added funds did Cotts ask for?

Got promoted (sorry, win the league) on an almost identical cost base as O’Driscoll (who I’m not slagging off btw).  I’m sure that with Keith Burt fully in charge of playing budget and them singing off the same hymn sheet, they knew what they had available to spend on fees, wages etc.

As I’ve explained to Mr Pops, the kind of money he was suggesting spending would’ve kept us well within FFP....and what assets we would’ve had too, if they had to move on.

Yes, he acted like a spoiled kid....that’s my only criticism of him.  But I think he did have just cause, he’d been knee-capped, at the point where we had huge momentum.

[Marina's Rolls Royce]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

It’s far more than that MRR. There is apparently something that can’t be destroyed. Well, it would seem that the only thing is the recruitment structures. It’s only fair and right of me to make the case across all of the club’s facets and streams and ascertain which area it is that is in danger of destruction. It’s pretty clear, I think. 

I don't quite see it the same way and even the biggest cynic must appreciate that BCFC has got a great deal right in structure.

I definitely don't see Ashton as the problem.

I think that since Coppell, SL has been suffering from PTSD ( or PCSD). I think that SL could get the Manager he needs but has to review and rethink his own strategy first. MA seems to appear as everyone's reason for failure- easy target. If he was then SL would have acted...."unsackable"? Yep-same as LJ was.

I think Steve was damaged by Coppell and the James fiasco and is nervous about making the same mistake twice.In football, you can burn through zillions very very quickly and for no return. We have a really well run club, regular transfer income yet still lose £1m per month. There are very few businesses which lose that much cash and are perceived as well run.

What happens next is down to Steve and the decision he makes- no one else.

[Xiled]

From an outsider's point of view, the only manager who appears to have come close to destroying the club was Pulis. And I think that's an overly dramatic description of events.

His style of play, some of his signings, his obvious dislike for the club all contributed to a feeling of malaise that was worse than the bad days under previous and subsequent managers.

So, could it be that bad again? I very much doubt that any manager or first team coach could do enough to destroy the club.

We need the next manager to respect the club's philosophy - faith in young players, adding new players with potential.

But, both Johnson and Holden have operated well outside of that philosophy so it's not been cast in stone while we have been in the Championship.

I absolutely agree with the above points about buying the right players for the team rather than some haphazard investment moneyball idea. A successful side will inevitably result in players who increase in value. We are a selling club as most are.

We've tried to be Brentford during the last 3 or 4 years but the key difference is that we do not recruit players to suit a clear system of playing. From roughly Christmas 2017 onwards, both Johnson and Holden have shown no clarity in how the team should play. I have sympathy for Holden because injuries have been a nightmare.

So, get the manager with a clear and successful style at Championship level and allow him to recruit the players to match that system.

It will not destroy the club.

[ashton_fan]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

In theory I would agree but I look at our squad and can’t even really see where the show ponies are. It feels to me like we’ve splurged all our money on race horses with gammy legs...

We have signed some good players but they're the ones wanted by other clubs and sold on for a profit. We're left with the ones who are not necessarily bad but who are not outstanding. Our system of trading players for a profit deems this is what happens.

[Robbored]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Out of interest - What added funds did Cotts ask for?

He wanted funds to sign a striker one of which was Gayle the other Grey saying to SL that he’d got all he could from the squad......... that went down like a lead ballon. 
 

You know all this Dave and I’m not sure why you’re asking.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Robbored said:

He wanted funds to sign a striker one of which was Gayle the other Grey saying to SL that he’d got all he could from the squad......... that went down like a lead ballon. 
 

You know all this Dave and I’m not sure why you’re asking.

No, I’m asking because the set up was as I described.  I think you’re mixing timelines....the “I’ve got all I can from this squad” was well after the window closed.  That summer he lost out on his two main targets,  both within the budget he had.

[spudski]

32 minutes ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I don't quite see it the same way and even the biggest cynic must appreciate that BCFC has got a great deal right in structure.

I definitely don't see Ashton as the problem.

I think that since Coppell, SL has been suffering from PTSD ( or PCSD). I think that SL could get the Manager he needs but has to review and rethink his own strategy first. MA seems to appear as everyone's reason for failure- easy target. If he was then SL would have acted...."unsackable"? Yep-same as LJ was.

I think Steve was damaged by Coppell and the James fiasco and is nervous about making the same mistake twice.In football, you can burn through zillions very very quickly and for no return. We have a really well run club, regular transfer income yet still lose £1m per month. There are very few businesses which lose that much cash and are perceived as well run.

What happens next is down to Steve and the decision he makes- no one else.

SL chased Coppell. He didn't want the job.

He spent a very long time courting LJ, and imo, made the right decision to progress and stabilise the club in the Championship.

When you put a man like MA in charge of operations and recruitment, it's a natural instinct, to want to protect your position within the club. You would do everything possible to discourage a target if there was a chance he might go against the recruitment philosophy put in place by MA. 

A coach has to get results.

MA has to run the club in a manner where we make money. Plus recruit. Finding a middle ground is the problem. MA will be judged more on the money side imo.

Imo... he would be better off just being the money man...giving a budget, and allowing the coach to choose players, without continually looking at the resale value.

[Robbored]

21 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No, I’m asking because the set up was as I described.  I think you’re mixing timelines....the “I’ve got all I can from this squad” was well after the window closed.  That summer he lost out on his two main targets,  both within the budget he had.

I’ve described on here two or three times previously during yet another of the SC  ‘love-ins’  what we heard from SL at a Senior Reds Xmas lunch.

We knew that SC was on his way out probably before SC knew himself.

[Midlands Robin]

@Harry, a great post and I think you've hit the nail on the head.

If you look at things on the surface, what manager would turn down working for us? 

We have one of the best tier 2 academies in the league, if not the best at that level. We have a financially well backed club with a host of top class facilities. 

The owner loves the club and desperately wants a long term manager who has a clear plan and vision so would be extremely generous to the right candidate in both time and the right amount of money (without breaking the bank) 

So what's the issue? 

It's obviously when you scratch beneath the surface. 

To shape the direction of his on field activities a head coach / manager must be at the heart of the recruitment process. On the flip side the recruitment team must have a clear understanding of what the manager wants from his players. 

LJ was lambasted for talking about players he could trust. Maybe it was a poor choice of words but I feel what he meant more accurately was players he could understand. Those who would go out on the pitch and consistently perform at the expected level. Any players can have an off day but look at someone like Palmer, one minute fantastic the next anonymous. 

Players, like anyone else, are people at the end of the day. I think the Ashton approach is far too analytical. Every performance has an attribute has a number against it. In doing so, its impossible for a manager to get a feel for the actual player. 

It's like using a computer to select works of art or great pieces of music. The computer may be able to be programmed to see what is technically brilliant about them but it knows nothing about feeling and emotions. 

That's what a manager needs to understand about his players and why a manager needs to be at the heart of recruitment. Being presented with a list will always result in him selecting the least worse choice from those available. 

 

 

[exAtyeoMax]

13 minutes ago, spudski said:

SL chased Coppell. He didn't want the job.

He spent a very long time courting LJ, and imo, made the right decision to progress and stabilise the club in the Championship.

When you put a man like MA in charge of operations and recruitment, it's a natural instinct, to want to protect your position within the club. You would do everything possible to discourage a target if there was a chance he might go against the recruitment philosophy put in place by MA. 

A coach has to get results.

MA has to run the club in a manner where we make money. Plus recruit. Finding a middle ground is the problem. MA will be judged more on the money side imo.

Imo... he would be better off just being the money man...giving a budget, and allowing the coach to choose players, without continually looking at the resale value.

MA said he interviewed LJ and put forward the idea to SL…is MA being deceitful here?

[exAtyeoMax]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I’ve described on here two or three times previously during yet another of the SC  ‘love-ins’  what we heard from SL at a Senior Reds Xmas lunch.

We knew that SC was on his way out probably before SC knew himself.

yes but that was ages after the summer transfer window.

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

MA said he interviewed LJ and put forward the idea to SL…is MA being deceitful here?

I'd say yes very much. LJ was courted over many seasons as to be our coach by SL. Informal conversations on how it was going to work. The families are close.

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

yes but that was ages after the summer transfer window.

The winter window was about to open..............

[Red Exile]

1 hour ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said:

I think that since Coppell, SL has been suffering from PTSD ( or PCSD). I think that SL could get the Manager he needs but has to review and rethink his own strategy first. MA seems to appear as everyone's reason for failure- easy target. If he was then SL would have acted...."unsackable"? Yep-same as LJ was.

I think Steve was damaged by Coppell and the James fiasco and is nervous about making the same mistake twice.In football, you can burn through zillions very very quickly and for no return. We have a really well run club, regular transfer income yet still lose £1m per month. There are very few businesses which lose that much cash and are perceived as well run.

What happens next is down to Steve and the decision he makes- no one else.

Spot on. I often don't see things from your perspective but I agree with this analysis 100%. 

I'm hoping he move on now. 

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I’ve described on here two or three times previously during yet another of the SC  ‘love-ins’  what we heard from SL at a Senior Reds Xmas lunch.

We knew that SC was on his way out probably before SC knew himself.

That’s irrelevant to your original comment about strikers and budgets.

[exAtyeoMax]

14 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'd say yes very much. LJ was courted over many seasons as to be our coach by SL. Informal conversations on how it was going to work. The families are close.

Thought as much, I remember you saying LJ would be coach the year before he was appointed. WTF does MA have to spin things so much? A hole.

[exAtyeoMax]

13 minutes ago, Robbored said:

The winter window was about to open..............

[Robbored]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s irrelevant to your original comment about strikers and budgets.

I don’t understand Dave.       

The winter window was about to open, and SC asked for funds to buy a striker claiming that he’d got all he could from the squad. That request was not well received.

Im struggling to see why some posters are seemingly unable to accept what actually happened.

[milo1111]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

What I'd like to be asked to SL, and hear his explanation, is how he has come to the conclusion that promotion is possible under his system in place?

I'd like to understand how he thinks promotion is possible and expected...using Academy players and returning loans, with a few rough diamonds, and a few experienced heads, under the guidance of coaches that have never won promotion or have experience of doing it. As well as selling your better players and not replacing them properly.

Also...how is a coach going to succeed if he sets about a playing system, but is given players that really don't suit the system.

Often players that are good footballers, but don't necessarily fit a system. Players that can improve on their value, and asked to try and fit in a system. The square peg in round holes syndrome.

It's often like...so and so is a good player, but he doesn't have the attributes to play to this system...but try and coach him into that position. 

For example...imo... we've never replaced Webster. A ball playing defender that can build from the back. 

DaSilva...great player in his own way. But nothing like Bryan in energy, fitness, press, directness etc.

As for our selection of forwards, that's been woefully judged imo.

Since Nketiah...it's almost like anyone available that has scored in the past. A right bag of all-sorts.

The way we recruit has an effect on any system a coach wishes to implement. 

It's the equivalent of being handed a bag of all-sorts and told to mould them some how.

Great post. This is the thing that shows SL has not got a clue about football. Unfortunately he’s loathe to put his trust on people that do. Utterly depressing.

 

I will be amazed if we get anything other than another yes man. And even if we do appoint a Paul cook or similar I’d be worried there would be a fall out fairly quickly as he wasn’t afforded the freedom to do his job.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I don’t understand Dave.       

The winter window was about to open, and SC asked for funds to buy a striker claiming that he’d got all he could from the squad. That request was not well received.

Im struggling to see why some posters are seemingly unable to accept what actually happened.

You're mixing your summers and winters up.  Gray and Gayle were summer 2015, not winter 2016, when he departed.

[exAtyeoMax]

To be honest I don't think it would take much to derail the so called MA empire. The manager would just have to have enough gumption to challenge MA on certain issues, especially if he is successful. 

[robin_unreliant]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

It really needs a new manager, with a clean slate of a squad (which they’ll get) to nail down the playing system and recruit to it.  It’s a massively important appointment, but equally it ain’t a bad time to be coming in.  The clubs in the bag will’ve gone to a large extent.

 

Isn't that exactly what DH did - publicly saying he wanted to play 352. So did MA not recruit to what he wanted - or was it just the injuries that scuppered it? 

JD and Hunt should probably work as WBs with Sessgnon as cover but not much behind that in the hardest position to play. In a way it demonstrates how it doesn't work if the manager has a definite plan but isn't in control of who is recruited.