If It's Pearson... will he keep to Watford's 4-2-3-1?

[Mr Chappers]

Suspect the formation will be based on availability of players, especially as we have no bite whatsoever in midfield.

[Harry]

1 minute ago, JonDolman said:

I don't know why we haven't tried it at all this season. Probably the most common system teams use nowadays. LJ wasn't that keen on it either. 

Wells best performances in his career have been in that system up top on his own. I don't get why he hasn't played one game in his favoured role.

 

Plus the fact we have a plethora of players in the ‘3’ part of the formation. Semenyo, Massengo, Paterson, Lansbury, Palmer. It’s our strongest position (numbers-wise). 

[The Original OTIB]

9 minutes ago, Harry said:

Plus the fact we have a plethora of players in the ‘3’ part of the formation. Semenyo, Massengo, Paterson, Lansbury, Palmer. It’s our strongest position (numbers-wise). 

I think you'd have to have Massengo in the 2. Watford have Hughes, a flair player but also a hard tackler with a good engine to get up and down, support the attacks but get back as well. We can't risk anyone else in that 2 in my opinion. Bakinson the nearest but HNM would be more consistent as far as I'm concerned. Paterson and lansbury do not like the hard yards. 

[David Brent]

18 minutes ago, DaveF said:

Not as wide player in the 3? Personally I think that's his best position.

I agree. But with our current squad, I don’t think so. Fam can’t be trusted at the moment and neither can Wells unless we work out how to get the most out of him.

Ideally I’d have Fam up top with Semenyo wide, if he looks interested 

[The Original OTIB]

8 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

I think you'd have to have Massengo in the 2. Watford have Hughes, a flair player but also a hard tackler with a good engine to get up and down, support the attacks but get back as well. We can't risk anyone else in that 2 in my opinion. Bakinson the nearest but HNM would be more consistent as far as I'm concerned. Paterson and lansbury do not like the hard yards. 

I like Nagy staying back as he's so good at anticipating danger and covering + can play us out of trouble and link the back line to the midfield. Stop the aimless punts  as well !

[Davefevs]

26 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I don't know why we haven't tried it at all this season. Probably the most common system teams use nowadays. LJ wasn't that keen on it either. 

Wells best performances in his career have been in that system up top on his own. I don't get why he hasn't played one game in his favoured role.

 

And yet our best performances last season came when he played it, albeit a lopsided version:

Pre-Xmas (Huddersfield , Luton, Fulham)

Massengo / Nagy

Brownhill (narrow) / Weimann (floating) / Eliasson (pure LW)

Diedhiou

It was the only time I thought Weimann and Diedhiou looked anything like a partnership!!

After Xmas we had that run of wins where it was probably more 4141, than 4231....but proof that one up too can be fine.

[Lrrr]

33 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

Agreed. Think we have missed him, if only as a different option off the bench. Our attacking play has been pitiful this season. 

Semenyo isn't the answer. He's part of the problem.

That problem being the owner's insistence on seeing youngsters playing in the first team. That's fine, in theory. What you must also have is a Coach strong enough to say, "Absolutely Steve, but only if they're good enough".

Holden wasn't that Coach. Pearson might be, if he hangs around. I also suspect Hughton would have been and told them so at interview, one of the reasons he didn't get the job.

Semenyo is too raw and - for a club the owner insists is aiming at the Premier League - it will take him too long to get up to the required standard. Not good enough. Imo.

On Saturday, Semenyo's pace forced a mix up between the Barnsley goalkeeper and a defender which left Kasey Palmer with - literally - an open goal. It was from a difficult angle but if any City player could have scored from there, it's Palmer. What happened? Semenyo ran into Palmer and the opportunity was lost. Utterly, utterly brainless. Good athlete, average technique (borderline poor in front of goal for a striker), zero brains.

Ditto Taylor Moore. Not good enough.

(Bakinson, not ready, only playing due to injury crisis. Might be ok but we're talking long term. Ditto Towler, thrown in at deep end, way too soon.)

Vyner is the only one - so far - who can justify getting games at this level. Imo.

So, imo, playing youngsters to appease the bloke who unbelievably gave you the job, even though they're not good enough, is part of the reason for this season's shambles. Along with a catastrophic injury list annd the obvious fact the Coach himself was nowhere near good enough.      

On the point about Holden, quite simply who else was he supposed to play? We've had times where we haven't been able to fill the bench due to injuries, you highlight the problem yourself. We weren't in a position of if the younger players are good enough, its been been how do you get the best out of them because we have to use them. @Harry noted the emphasis in our recruitment for looking to add experience (Brunt, Lansbury, Mariappa, Martin) so its not like he used the younger players out of choice. The only time you could argue he put a younger player ahead of a more experienced player would probably be Bakinson ahead of Nagy, however when he came in earlier in the season TB was performing well.

You question Semenyo's zero brains in that situation, I would question if Palmer had a brain for putting a ball into the middle of the box without a single City player even half close to the area rather than pulling it back onto his right and having a go. Its not just the younger players who were playing without a brain. 

[Davefevs]

Palmer is a younger player!

[cityboy]

He’s previously stated that he believes the system should be created around the players at his disposal, rather than trying to force players into a given formation and play style with which they may either not be capable of doing, or be too unfamiliar to be comfortable in. 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, cityboy said:

He’s previously stated that he believes the system should be created around the players at his disposal, rather than trying to force players into a given formation and play style with which they may either not be capable of doing, or be too unfamiliar to be comfortable in. 

We ain’t playing with a LB then

[Harry]

34 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

I think you'd have to have Massengo in the 2. Watford have Hughes, a flair player but also a hard tackler with a good engine to get up and down, support the attacks but get back as well. We can't risk anyone else in that 2 in my opinion. Bakinson the nearest but HNM would be more consistent as far as I'm concerned. Paterson and lansbury do not like the hard yards. 

I believe Massengo is an attacking midfielder. Certainly he has himself suggested so. Much like Lansbury, who publically stated he’s not a DM. I think you only get the best of HNM if you play him higher up where his energy can effect the press. 
 

Edit - I also don’t think HNM has the maturity yet to play deep in midfield. He’s not a ‘ticker over’ of possession. He’s someone who tries things on the ball and will often cough it up, which is dangerous on the edge of his own box. He’s best off trying those things in the opposition half. 

[The Original OTIB]

Just now, Harry said:

I believe Massengo is an attacking midfielder. Certainly he has himself suggested so. Much like Lansbury, who publically stated he’s not a DM. I think you only get the best of HNM if you play him higher up where his energy can effect the press. 

Indeed but it is the here and now of which I am concerned (see Pemberton thread and above hereto).

[The Original OTIB]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

I believe Massengo is an attacking midfielder. Certainly he has himself suggested so. Much like Lansbury, who publically stated he’s not a DM. I think you only get the best of HNM if you play him higher up where his energy can effect the press. 
 

Edit - I also don’t think HNM has the maturity yet to play deep in midfield. He’s not a ‘ticker over’ of possession. He’s someone who tries things on the ball and will often cough it up, which is dangerous on the edge of his own box. He’s best off trying those things in the opposition half. 

Which would be Nagy's job in my 2. 

[Harry]

6 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Indeed but it is the here and now of which I am concerned (see Pemberton thread and above hereto).

Yep. The here and now is that you should play the players in the positions that will not only best suit them, but to best avoid them making expensive errors. 
 

You want Sem, HNM, Lansbury, Palmer etc high up the pitch not just to be able to effect possession up there but also to press the opposition but also to prevent them losing the ball cheaply 30 yards from their own goal. 
Nagy is the best DM we have. Partner him with Bakinson as the 2 DM ‘holders’ and allow them to protect us centrally at the back but also feed the balls into the ‘AM 3’ 

 

[Ivorguy]

All I can add is good luck Nige with that lot.

One tip, make your instructions to them ultra simple. Think of it as coaching the U11s and you won’t go far wrong.

[The Original OTIB]

5 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yep. The here and now is that you should play the players in the positions that will not only best suit them, but to best avoid them making expensive errors. 
 

You want Sem, HNM, Lansbury, Palmer etc high up the pitch not just to be able to effect possession up there but also to press the opposition but also to prevent them losing the ball cheaply 30 yards from their own goal. 
Nagy is the best DM we have. Partner him with Bakinson as the 2 DM ‘holder's and allow them to protect us centrally at the back but also feed the balls into the ‘AM 3’ 

 

Agree it is a toss up between the two but I'm not sure that Bakinson has the bottle that HNM has. No doubt we shall see. I fancy that HNM wins/makes more tackles as well. Another key part is which can learn the dark arts the quickest and win fouls (if necessary) when we are under pressure. 

[Lrrr]

25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Palmer is a younger player!

I'm confused in other threads we get told Taylor Moore isn't a younger player and Kasey is older 

[Harry]

4 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

Agree it is a toss up between the two but I'm not sure that Bakinson has the bottle that HNM has. No doubt we shall see. I fancy that HNM wins/makes more tackles as well. Another key part is which can learn the dark arts the quickest and win fouls (if necessary) when we are under pressure. 

I think you’d see a more effective Bakinson if he’s under instruction to hold his shape. 
Let the attacking 3 make all the movements, tell Nagy & Bakinson to hold hold hold. No wandering means Baks won’t get easily turned and then not be able to recover (one of my notes on him at present is his inability to recover once he’s lost his runner). So he needs to stay deep and therefore not have to make those recovery runs. If both DM’s maintain a shape discipline they’d be difficult to play through.  Especially if you marry that with 3 AM’s who are buzzing around and chasing, harrying, pressing. 

[DC10]

Give the kids a chance!! 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

Yep. The here and now is that you should play the players in the positions that will not only best suit them, but to best avoid them making expensive errors. 
 

You want Sem, HNM, Lansbury, Palmer etc high up the pitch not just to be able to effect possession up there but also to press the opposition but also to prevent them losing the ball cheaply 30 yards from their own goal. 
Nagy is the best DM we have. Partner him with Bakinson as the 2 DM ‘holders’ and allow them to protect us centrally at the back but also feed the balls into the ‘AM 3’ 

 

My only issue with Nagy and Bakinson is responsibility and comms....especially as a pair.  Then to realise when it needs both to “stay at home” and screen and when it only needs one, some of which dictated behind them by Kalas.

Gilmartin was spot-on on v Barnsley will Dike getting balls into feet ahead Kalas because Lansbury wasn’t screening balls from their right side (Brittain in the main).  I don’t think Vyner did the same on the other side either (Styles).  With Moore getting dragged around it was easy to put us under pressure.

As a 4231 on Saturday with same personnel but Palmer and Semenyo in the side midfield positions, you can let Sollbauer or Andersen have it at the back because they can’t play.  Palmer and Semenyo stay on Styles and Brittain, and as the Barnsley CBs bring the ball towards the half way line you then engage them and they either hit big diags or straight balls, both much easier to defend than letting Styles and Brittain get towards our final third, because we’ve gone 3 on 3 v their CBs who have no intention of playing.  It’s then 7 v 7, and with one of our back 3 wanting to stay “spare”, it’s then 7 v 6....and with their energy and game plan, we are fooked.

We made exactly the same mistake v Cardiff.

Come on, professional coaching staff, wake up and smell the coffee!

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I think Watkins played in the Luton win. But yeah I don't know why LJ didn't try and build a team around that system.

Huddersfield first half was superb. It shows how getting the tactics right can really make players jobs a lot easier. Everyone was playing well.

Not many would be saying let's play Nagy and Massengo alongside each other now. But in the Huddersfield first half they were both class. A huge part of that was what they had going on around them imo.

You are bloody right, he did.  Was that the one game Weimann missed through injury?

You’ve made me check!

No, it was Massengo who didn’t play, nor was it 3 games on the trot either as my memory incorrectly recalled....but it was a lopsided 4231, Weimann playing deeper and therefore pressing as the opponents tried to play into midfield.

[The Original OTIB]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

I think you’d see a more effective Bakinson if he’s under instruction to hold his shape. 
Let the attacking 3 make all the movements, tell Nagy & Bakinson to hold hold hold. No wandering means Baks won’t get easily turned and then not be able to recover (one of my notes on him at present is his inability to recover once he’s lost his runner). So he needs to stay deep and therefore not have to make those recovery runs. If both DM’s maintain a shape discipline they’d be difficult to play through.  Especially if you marry that with 3 AM’s who are buzzing around and chasing, harrying, pressing. 

Possibly true, but HNM has the better engine at this stage of his develpment so it may indeed suit Tyreeq to be more disciplined. That said, I'm not sure it's a role he would want nor enjoy. Needs must, however.

[The Original OTIB]

12 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My only issue with Nagy and Bakinson is responsibility and comms....especially as a pair.  Then to realise when it needs both to “stay at home” and screen and when it only needs one, some of which dictated behind them by Kalas.

Gilmartin was spot-on on v Barnsley will Dike getting balls into feet ahead Kalas because Lansbury wasn’t screening balls from their right side (Brittain in the main).  I don’t think Vyner did the same on the other side either (Styles).  With Moore getting dragged around it was easy to put us under pressure.

As a 4231 on Saturday with same personnel but Palmer and Semenyo in the side midfield positions, you can let Sollbauer or Andersen have it at the back because they can’t play.  Palmer and Semenyo stay on Styles and Brittain, and as the Barnsley CBs bring the ball towards the half way line you then engage them and they either hit big diags or straight balls, both much easier to defend than letting Styles and Brittain get towards our final third, because we’ve gone 3 on 3 v their CBs who have no intention of playing.  It’s then 7 v 7, and with one of our back 3 wanting to stay “spare”, it’s then 7 v 6....and with their energy and game plan, we are fooked.

We made exactly the same mistake v Cardiff.

Come on, professional coaching staff, wake up and smell the coffee!

The way that Pack and Smith rotated was very underestimated in my view. Yes they had their weaknesses but they had an understanding, and that is so vital so that you don't leave holes.

[Harry]

1 minute ago, The Original OTIB said:

Possibly true, but HNM has the better engine at this stage of his develpment so it may indeed suit Tyreeq to be more disciplined. That said, I'm not sure it's a role he would want nor enjoy. Needs must, however.

Yep. I don’t think Baks is naturally a DM, but he’s the next best one we’ve got after Nagy.  And I’d want 2 in there at the moment for extra solidity. 
As you say, HNM having more energy is better suited to be one of the 3 AM’s who are the ones who will do all the running in that shape. 
As Dave alludes to in his post above, in this shape you can let Semenyo and HNM run their socks off closing down the oppo wing backs, keep a solid back 4 and a double layer of protection infront of the CB’s with the 2 DM’s maintaining shape discipline. 

2 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

The way that Pack and Smith rotated was very underestimated in my view. Yes they had their weaknesses but they had and understanding, and that is so vital so that you don't leave holes.

100%. Many fans didn’t know what they had til it was gone. 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, The Original OTIB said:

The way that Pack and Smith rotated was very underestimated in my view. Yes they had their weaknesses but they had and understanding, and that is so vital so that you don't leave holes.

Yep, and ultimately, Pack’s main responsibility was to “screen”, Smith’s was to “ferret”....but if either was out of position, they would try to do the others job.  I’m not sure Brownhill was ever a “ferret” with Pack, but he offered more driving forward stuff than Smith.

All about combos!

For me, Nagy would be Pack, and Bakinson would be Smith/Brownhill, purely because I think Nagy does a more-screen like role for Hungary, and I think Bakinson can do more further advanced....but I’m sure others would argue the other way.  The important thing is that they know what each other’s main role is.

I think the 4 of us are largely aligned.

[The Original OTIB]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, and ultimately, Pack’s main responsibility was to “screen”, Smith’s was to “ferret”....but if either was out of position, they would try to do the others job.  I’m not sure Brownhill was ever a “ferret” with Pack, but he offered more driving forward stuff than Smith.

All about combos!

For me, Nagy would be Pack, and Bakinson would be Smith/Brownhill, purely because I think Nagy does a more-screen like role for Hungary, and I think Bakinson can do more further advanced....but I’m sure others would argue the other way.  The important thing is that they know what each other’s main role is.

HNM is more ferret that Bakinson if comparisons are to be made. Just my view, of course. I think it's just instinct that I'd trust HNM more than Tyreeq at the moment; and that's the key to all of this. Who fits what we need NOW and who is fit, in form, wants it, etc.

[Harry]

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, and ultimately, Pack’s main responsibility was to “screen”, Smith’s was to “ferret”....but if either was out of position, they would try to do the others job.  I’m not sure Brownhill was ever a “ferret” with Pack, but he offered more driving forward stuff than Smith.

All about combos!

For me, Nagy would be Pack, and Bakinson would be Smith/Brownhill, purely because I think Nagy does a more-screen like role for Hungary, and I think Bakinson can do more further advanced....but I’m sure others would argue the other way.  The important thing is that they know what each other’s main role is.

I think the 4 of us are largely aligned.

Agreed. Nagy has bundles of energy and it could be very easy for you to think he’s best in the ‘ferret’ role. However, his biggest weakness is chasing the ball and leaving holes and it’s no surprise that his best games for us came when he was at DM and didn’t go wandering or chasing the ball. Hold hold hold, and you see a better Nagy. 
Seems contradictory given his energy, but he needs to have that control (which he himself alluded to in his first interview. “Perhaps I can run too much”). 

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, The Original OTIB said:

HNM is more ferret that Bakinson if comparisons are to be made. Just my view, of course. I think it's just instinct that I'd trust HNM more than Tyreeq at the moment; and that's the key to all of this. Who fits what we need NOW and who is fit, in form, wants it, etc.

I see HNM in the 3 Forward Midfield roles, but if he had to play in the 2, then yes, the ferret.

Go back to last season....Brownhill the holder (without Pack - Cardiff), Massengo the ferret (youthful energy).

LJ did some good things, like this....but he did some dumb things too.

[Robbored]

This site really makes me smile.................asking what formation Pearson will use and which players will get selected.............

The most amusing part tho is that NP hasn’t been officially announced yet............

I wonder what’ll happen if he doesn’t join us.........

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

This site really makes me smile.................asking what formation Pearson will use and which players will get selected.............

The most amusing part tho is that NP hasn’t been officially announced yet............

I’m not suggesting that at all....I’m discussing a recurring theme of Harry and mine, with excellent additional stuff from JonD and TheOriginalOTIB, based on what what players we have.  I’ll wait and see how NP sets us up.

Remember this is a F.O.R.U.M. - a place to discuss, hypothesise, etc.

It’s easy to scroll on by.  Now leave us be, whilst we carry on discussing a very interesting subject, there a good boy.