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Deano - Have I Missed Something?


Philly The Kid

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Haven't seen or heard the usual parting message of thanks for the opportunity etc..

Noticed LJ got his in within a couple of days but nothing as yet from Dean. Probably taken it badly which is understandable. I noticed SL made the usual "always welcome back anytime" comments.

Usually something issued through the league managers association...

 

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3 minutes ago, Finley_Smith10 said:

I don’t really get all the love about Dean Holden, he lied to us a couple of times, for example Joe Williams being tired and fatigued. And a lot of words which didn’t back anything up aswell as some of the worst football I’ve seen watching city 

Great human. 

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4 minutes ago, Finley_Smith10 said:

I don’t really get all the love about Dean Holden, he lied to us a couple of times, for example Joe Williams being tired and fatigued. And a lot of words which didn’t back anything up aswell as some of the worst football I’ve seen watching city 

I didn't show any love in my post. Harsh world of professional football is either get reults or you're history, nice human or not. I simply wondered if he's issued a leaving statement.

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10 minutes ago, Finley_Smith10 said:

I don’t really get all the love about Dean Holden, he lied to us a couple of times, for example Joe Williams being tired and fatigued. And a lot of words which didn’t back anything up aswell as some of the worst football I’ve seen watching city 

Spot on for me.

He may be a nice bloke, but he was serially incompetent here - as I think I said on another thread, he’s by all accounts mad about football but played the game in a way that indicated he actively despised it. I also think he probably contributed to our injury issues with his “fittest team in the league” shtick and pushing players in before being ready. If putting 11 men behind the ball each game and throwing 6 strikers on when we concede is the level of his acumen, he’s not getting another job.

Summary: May be top bloke, may be good human. But he was given a job which he was manifestly not good enough or qualified for, and was spectacularly bad at it. I’m not sure I want to hear his excuses for that.

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2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Spot on for me.

He may be a nice bloke, but he was serially incompetent here - as I think I said on another thread, he’s by all accounts mad about football but played the game in a way that indicated he actively despised it. I also think he probably contributed to our injury issues with his “fittest team in the league” shtick and pushing players in before being ready. If putting 11 men behind the ball each game and throwing 6 strikers on when we concede is the level of his acumen, he’s not getting another job.

Summary: May be top bloke, may be good human. But he was given a job which he was manifestly not good enough or qualified for, and was spectacularly bad at it. I’m not sure I want to hear his excuses for that.

yeah agree. Just because you’re a ‘good human’ or whatever doesn’t mean you’re qualified for that specific job. Experience is what we needed and hopefully with Pearson here now he is that missing piece in which we can start to challenge the top half of the league 

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32 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Spot on for me.

He may be a nice bloke, but he was serially incompetent here - as I think I said on another thread, he’s by all accounts mad about football but played the game in a way that indicated he actively despised it. I also think he probably contributed to our injury issues with his “fittest team in the league” shtick and pushing players in before being ready. If putting 11 men behind the ball each game and throwing 6 strikers on when we concede is the level of his acumen, he’s not getting another job.

Summary: May be top bloke, may be good human. But he was given a job which he was manifestly not good enough or qualified for, and was spectacularly bad at it. I’m not sure I want to hear his excuses for that.

??????????????

Are you giving the reference for his next job?!

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37 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Spot on for me.

He may be a nice bloke, but he was serially incompetent here - as I think I said on another thread, he’s by all accounts mad about football but played the game in a way that indicated he actively despised it. I also think he probably contributed to our injury issues with his “fittest team in the league” shtick and pushing players in before being ready. If putting 11 men behind the ball each game and throwing 6 strikers on when we concede is the level of his acumen, he’s not getting another job.

Summary: May be top bloke, may be good human. But he was given a job which he was manifestly not good enough or qualified for, and was spectacularly bad at it. I’m not sure I want to hear his excuses for that.

Ha ha. Don’t hold back Silvio. ?

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I think most Bristol City fans are able to separate Dean Holden the man, from Dean Holden the manager.

The man has a very sad backstory, was passionate about being a success here, and did everything he could to endear himself to fans. I think back to his father crying at his first game in charge here, and you can't help but feel sad for him. It didn't work out and I'm sure he and his family are gutted. I really wanted him to succeed.

The manager wasn't ready, was part of the previous failing coaching team, shouldn't have been given the job, and struggled horrendously in the job. No sympathy for the manager. 

Wish the man well.

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4 minutes ago, Robin101 said:

I think most Bristol City fans are able to separate Dean Holden the man, from Dean Holden the manager.

The man has a very sad backstory, was passionate about being a success here, and did everything he could to endear himself to fans. I think back to his father crying at his first game in charge here, and you can't help but feel sad for him. It didn't work out and I'm sure he and his family are gutted. I really wanted him to succeed.

The manager wasn't ready, was part of the previous failing coaching team, shouldn't have been given the job, and struggled horrendously in the job. No sympathy for the manager. 

Wish the man well.

Well said

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1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Summary: May be top bloke, may be good human. But he was given a job which he was manifestly not good enough or qualified for, and was spectacularly bad at it. I’m not sure I want to hear his excuses for that.

 That summary. Brutal! :rofl2br:

 

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A decent guy brutally “found out” by the harsh reality of championship football, exacerbated by an injury depleted squad..

 Good luck for the future Dean.

“We go again”!

  

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Lee Johnson and Mark Ashton assembled a very large lop-sided squad. One of Holden's jobs as assistant was to keep the players out of the team happy. No doubt he was always saying things to them like "You are good enough. Just wait your chance and you will take it." So of course his natural instinct when he became manager was to play them. Unfortunately, it seems that Lee Johnson's instincts were right, and that the likes of Semenyo, Moore, Vyner, and Bakinson were not first-team players for a reason. They have done OK, but nothing to suggest that it was an error to have them out of the team under Lee Johnson. 

But Holden has a massive flaw. He does not understand what a midfield player is. In his first game against Hull as caretaker manager, he played 5-3-2. But two of the midfielders were Weimann and Paterson. Sorry, but they are not midfielders. They are forwards, who can play on the wing. Not central midfielders. That is not 5-3-2, it is 5-1-4. There is only one player with his back to his own defenders facing the opposition and trying to get the ball off them. The job of a central midfielder is to win the ball. Brian Clough once said to his mate Geoffrey Boycott "You have to win the battle in midfield." Clough also said to an 18 year old Irishman before every match "Your job is to win the ball and pass it to another player in a red shirt. I need you to get the ball off the opposition, pass, and move. Can you do that?" The kid made a career of it. He won a shed load of medals at Man Utd under Alex Ferguson doing only that, but he always said Clough was a better manager than Ferguson. His name? Roy Keane. Clough also said to a central midfielder once "If you stop their best player from playing, then we are in business, because you can't play."

If Weimann and Paterson are good enough to win the ball off the opposition AND then play, they are in the Gerrard/Scholes/Lampard/Zidane bracket. Paterson can hardly run at times without being out of breath. He can kill you in the last third with the ball at his feet, but whoever thought he could dominate the crunching tackles of midfield?

This blind spot continued throughout Dean Holden's period as caretaker manager. The height of it came away at Swansea. By the end City were playing 3-0-7.  The three defenders were Vyner, Kalas, and Pereira. No midfield. And the seven attackers were Eliasson, Palmer, Paterson, Diedhiou, Weimann, Afobe, and Watkins. City lost 1-0. Who is going to give the ball to all these forwards? 

Brian Clough gave everyone a specific job in the team. It was the central midfielder's job to "win the ball and give it to someone who could play." It was the winger's job to create. If you did not do your job, you were out. Once away in Sweden Archie Gemmill in a training match kept over-hitting his passes to winger John Robertson. Clough stopped the training session.

"Mr Gemmill."

"Yes boss."

"I bought you to give the ball to Mr Robertson."

"Yes boss."

"As you'll have noticed, Mr Robertson is a rather corpulent young gentleman with short legs that do not move as fast as some others in the club."

"Yes boss."

"His pace is deceptive. He is slower than he looks."

"Yes boss."

"So your job is to pass the ball to Mr Robertson's feet."

"Yes boss."

"You're sure you can still do that, aren't you?"

"Yes boss."

"Good, because if you can't we can easily leave you here and find somebody else who can give Mr Robertson the ball where he wants it."

"Yes boss."

Then Clough dropped Gemmill and sold him.

Because Holden never valued ball-winners in the centre of midfield, he allowed Korey Smith and Joe Morell to leave. How we could do with them now. Holden was playing 5-1-4 in disguise as 5-3-2. Occasionally it worked. Away at Cardiff our forwards blitzed them for an early goal for Chris Martin, and we hung on for 89 minutes for a 1-0 win. But it led to injuries for people like Bakinson, who were being flogged in midfield.  And we have never had a grip of a match, dominated a match. We have looked like what we are, a random eleven running around trying to figure out where everyone should be.

Admittedly Holden was unlucky. He lost to injury SEVEN left sided players. (Baker. Mawson. Rowe. Dasilva. O'Dowda. Pring. Nurse.) He was basically stuck with LJ's second eleven that then got ravaged by injuries. But if you don't understand what the job of a central midfielder is, you are not going to be a very good manager. 

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Spot on for me.

He may be a nice bloke, but he was serially incompetent here - as I think I said on another thread, he’s by all accounts mad about football but played the game in a way that indicated he actively despised it. I also think he probably contributed to our injury issues with his “fittest team in the league” shtick and pushing players in before being ready. If putting 11 men behind the ball each game and throwing 6 strikers on when we concede is the level of his acumen, he’s not getting another job.

Summary: May be top bloke, may be good human. But he was given a job which he was manifestly not good enough or qualified for, and was spectacularly bad at it. I’m not sure I want to hear his excuses for that.

I don’t believe his football was a lot worse than what I watched for the previous two seasons.

Basically it was awful, but if LJ had still been in charge this season, the LJ can do no wrong fan club, would now be telling us we were in a play off position for a lot of it.

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1 minute ago, Portland Bill said:

I don’t believe his football was a lot worse than what I watched for the previous two seasons.

Basically it was awful, but if LJ had still been in charge this season, the LJ can do no wrong fan club, would now be telling us we were in a play off position for a lot of it.

Spot on. I don't think the margins were that different from when LJ was in charge. Which is exactly what I expected when Holden was given the job.

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3 hours ago, Boston Red said:

Lee Johnson and Mark Ashton assembled a very large lop-sided squad. One of Holden's jobs as assistant was to keep the players out of the team happy. No doubt he was always saying things to them like "You are good enough. Just wait your chance and you will take it." So of course his natural instinct when he became manager was to play them. Unfortunately, it seems that Lee Johnson's instincts were right, and that the likes of Semenyo, Moore, Vyner, and Bakinson were not first-team players for a reason. They have done OK, but nothing to suggest that it was an error to have them out of the team under Lee Johnson. 

But Holden has a massive flaw. He does not understand what a midfield player is. In his first game against Hull as caretaker manager, he played 5-3-2. But two of the midfielders were Weimann and Paterson. Sorry, but they are not midfielders.

Need to expand your mind!!!!  Our best football under Holden came with those two in midfield.  Unconventional?  Yes, but effective, and we actually played well in that system.  It bombed without those two.  Go figure!

They are forwards, who can play on the wing. Not central midfielders. That is not 5-3-2, it is 5-1-4. There is only one player with his back to his own defenders facing the opposition and trying to get the ball off them. The job of a central midfielder is to win the ball.

They actually won the ball higher up the pitch than normal and got us "on the front foot".  The game has moved on massively from Forest in late 70s / 80s.

Brian Clough once said to his mate Geoffrey Boycott "You have to win the battle in midfield." Clough also said to an 18 year old Irishman before every match "Your job is to win the ball and pass it to another player in a red shirt. I need you to get the ball off the opposition, pass, and move. Can you do that?" The kid made a career of it. He won a shed load of medals at Man Utd under Alex Ferguson doing only that, but he always said Clough was a better manager than Ferguson. His name? Roy Keane. Clough also said to a central midfielder once "If you stop their best player from playing, then we are in business, because you can't play."

If Weimann and Paterson are good enough to win the ball off the opposition AND then play, they are in the Gerrard/Scholes/Lampard/Zidane bracket. Paterson can hardly run at times without being out of breath. He can kill you in the last third with the ball at his feet, but whoever thought he could dominate the crunching tackles of midfield?

This blind spot continued throughout Dean Holden's period as caretaker manager. The height of it came away at Swansea. By the end City were playing 3-0-7.  The three defenders were Vyner, Kalas, and Pereira. No midfield. And the seven attackers were Eliasson, Palmer, Paterson, Diedhiou, Weimann, Afobe, and Watkins. City lost 1-0. Who is going to give the ball to all these forwards?

Gung ho, nothing to lose, season over if we lost....and within 28 seconds we earned a penalty.  It was bonkers but why not?

Brian Clough gave everyone a specific job in the team. It was the central midfielder's job to "win the ball and give it to someone who could play." It was the winger's job to create. If you did not do your job, you were out. Once away in Sweden Archie Gemmill in a training match kept over-hitting his passes to winger John Robertson. Clough stopped the training session.

"Mr Gemmill."

"Yes boss."

"I bought you to give the ball to Mr Robertson."

"Yes boss."

"As you'll have noticed, Mr Robertson is a rather corpulent young gentleman with short legs that do not move as fast as some others in the club."

"Yes boss."

"His pace is deceptive. He is slower than he looks."

"Yes boss."

"So your job is to pass the ball to Mr Robertson's feet."

"Yes boss."

"You're sure you can still do that, aren't you?"

"Yes boss."

"Good, because if you can't we can easily leave you here and find somebody else who can give Mr Robertson the ball where he wants it."

"Yes boss."

Then Clough dropped Gemmill and sold him.

Because Holden never valued ball-winners in the centre of midfield, he allowed Korey Smith and Joe Morell to leave. How we could do with them now. Holden was playing 5-1-4 in disguise as 5-3-2. Occasionally it worked.

It worked until Weimann got injured, then Pato did too.  Poor squad planning?

Away at Cardiff our forwards blitzed them for an early goal for Chris Martin, and we hung on for 89 minutes for a 1-0 win. But it led to injuries for people like Bakinson, who were being flogged in midfield.  And we have never had a grip of a match, dominated a match. We have looked like what we are, a random eleven running around trying to figure out where everyone should be.

Admittedly Holden was unlucky. He lost to injury SEVEN left sided players. (Baker. Mawson. Rowe. Dasilva. O'Dowda. Pring. Nurse.) He was basically stuck with LJ's second eleven that then got ravaged by injuries. But if you don't understand what the job of a central midfielder is, you are not going to be a very good manager. 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Spot on for me.

He may be a nice bloke, but he was serially incompetent here - as I think I said on another thread, he’s by all accounts mad about football but played the game in a way that indicated he actively despised it. I also think he probably contributed to our injury issues with his “fittest team in the league” shtick and pushing players in before being ready. If putting 11 men behind the ball each game and throwing 6 strikers on when we concede is the level of his acumen, he’s not getting another job.

Summary: May be top bloke, may be good human. But he was given a job which he was manifestly not good enough or qualified for, and was spectacularly bad at it. I’m not sure I want to hear his excuses for that.

He was ? think that sums it up!

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