Disgusted with the players attitude

[Bernard Lerring]

10 hours ago, Sniper said:

 

They play when they want, and the point of this rant is I feel so sorry for Dean, why couldn't they play like that for him?

I'd think most people have at some point worked for a boss who's just not up to the task. You question their decisions, which means you become demotivated and as a result your performance drops. It is a shame when that boss is likeable, but it's pretty much unavoidable 

When someone comes in who is either appearing or proven to be far more capable at the role, it totally reverses that negative reaction. 

This applies in all workplaces, and I dont believe football is any different. It's just that you have thousands of "emotional shareholders" watching it unfold and commenting on it

 

[TedsHeadIs Red]

It’s all down to leadership. Or lack of. Without being disrespectful, a football player is not the most self enlightened individual. They will simply respond to the leadership of others. Or lack of.

[TonyTonyTony]

3 minutes ago, TedsHeadIs Red said:

a football player is not the most self enlightened individual.

Good job stereotyping all players...

[Kodjias Wrist]

7 minutes ago, TedsHeadIs Red said:

It’s all down to leadership. Or lack of. Without being disrespectful, a football player is not the most self enlightened individual. They will simply respond to the leadership of others. Or lack of.

Says who you? 

[Monkeh]

Just now, Kodjias Wrist said:

Says who you? 

It's obvious there's been a lack of leadership for quite some time, 

[Kodjias Wrist]

1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

It's obvious there's been a lack of leadership for quite some time, 

I was referring to the point made generalising all footballers.

[Red-Robbo]

The OP seems entirely ignorant to the critical role morale plays in the sport of football and in all team sports generally.

A demoralised side goes out and gets beaten, no matter what their individual skills; the same side playing the same opponents can win if their morale is lifted.

The arrival of Nigel Pearson, a competent manager with a good track record, will have given City's players a major boost.

What we have to hope is that this spring in their collective step is retained for the rest of the season.

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

I was referring to the point made generalising all footballers.

That wasn't clear but that's a fair point I apologise 

[Kodjias Wrist]

1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

That wasn't clear but that's a fair point I apologise 

Yeah no need to apologise mate. 

[hantsred]

Like the club has done, I think we all have to move on from Holden quickly and just respect the players were in a dark place but have now got direction and purpose again. Personally I was overjoyed with what they did last night as it 3 more points away from relegation and a good footing for Pearson to take over. I respected and backed Holden but he is now history as far as getting this club on the right track

[Bat Fastard]

Lots of very interesting psychobabble in this thread. Of course Dean would feel a sense of betrayal -and I would sympathise with that.  But given the run we have been on, I am just relieved that the dial has shifted and we looked more like a football team last night.  Long may it continue! 

[AshtonGreat]

5 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

If you look at the mood on these boards pre-matchon Saturday and the mood on these boards yesterday you’d have seen a completely different mood amongst pretty much all the posters and an optimism that was not there before. Why wouldn’t players be the same?

I get it is frustrating but players are human. People who aren’t confident in their jobs, aren’t sure where things are going and who are plagued by uncertainty struggle to perform well at work. People who feel their organisation has direction, who feel there is a clear plan and who are optimistic for the future tend to perform well. 

It’s not really surprising that, even before he has done anything, the appointment of a respected manager known for good, clear leadership has lifted the mood of the players and it is not surprisingly that the change in psychology has changed to a change in performance.

People often criticise players’ attitudes as though they are wholly within the control of players but anyone who has ever had a job knows that how your manager and your organisations acts and communicates affects how confident, motivated and optimistic you feel and how confident, motivated and optimistic you feel has a huge effect on your performance.

Holden seemed like a good man but his job was to get players putting in the kind of performance you put in when you are confident, motivated and optimistic and he was not achieving that.

Because they are professionals who get paid an absolute fortune?

[Monkeh]

8 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Because they are professionals who get paid an absolute fortune?

They are also human beings who are emotional and respond to things positively and negatively, poor management will result in poor performance and good management will result in good performance

 

[Northern Red]

16 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Because they are professionals who get paid an absolute fortune?

Yeah, it's that simple....

[TedsHeadIs Red]

46 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

Says who you? 

Yes.

I am trying to offer up a suggestion as to why players didn't play for DH but apparently did for NP last night and why they can't play to the best of their ability regardless of who the boss is.

I respond to good or bad leadership in the same way. I'm not making excuses for bad attitude but it is a fact of life. The buck always stops with the boss. It was a bad appointment by MA but nobody put a gun to Dean's head to take it. It was his job to lead and motivate the players not MA's.

You are welcome to disagree as part of a friendly debate.

[The Coach]

Extreme Ownership & Dichotomy of Leadership.

[Dottie]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

But, but, but Wells doesn’t want to be here!

I think he just wanted some passes to run onto.

Of course he did. He wanted to play in the middle, not on the wing, with balls into his feet not blasted at his head. Look what happens when you set it up properly.   Can’t believe people constantly saying he didn’t want to be here,  his reaction when he scored last night should have answered that. 

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

Because they are professionals who get paid an absolute fortune?

I think it's a bit of a myth that how much you get paid dictates how professional you are. I don't think working in an industry that renumerates people well means that people are any less affected by fluctuations in confidence or reactions to how they are treated. Ultimately footballers get the salary they do on the basis of their footballing abilities, not because they've shown any particular feats of psychological fortitude, and I think it's a bit of a myth to link the two. 

[LondonBristolian]

2 hours ago, bcfcbulgaria said:

Lansbury as DM, Vyner in midfield while Nagy on the bench, Wells out wide etc.

I think this leads to another problem as well. 

I'd imagine, to play football well, a player needs to be able to get in the right psychological zone to focus on their own game and it's hard to do that if you're constantly second guessing what your teammates are going to do and if they are going to do their jobs properly. As soon as the team is set up in a way where everyone is confident that other players know and can do their jobs, it makes their own jobs much easier to do.

If you're constantly unsure what position other players are going to take up, and you're continually steeling yourself to cover for their mistakes, how can you put in a good performance? Stick a striker on the wing, a centre back at left wing and a midfielder in the team who hasn't played regularly for 18 months and barely knows his teammates and you are pretty much guaranteeing anxious, risk averse performances from the rest of the team. 

[Cowshed]

51 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think it's a bit of a myth that how much you get paid dictates how professional you are. I don't think working in an industry that renumerates people well means that people are any less affected by fluctuations in confidence or reactions to how they are treated. Ultimately footballers get the salary they do on the basis of their footballing abilities, not because they've shown any particular feats of psychological fortitude, and I think it's a bit of a myth to link the two. 

It a myth to a degree. People play football for differing reasons. People are motivated by different factors - intrinsic and extrinsic. Some players will be motivated by money.

Footballers as you go up the football ladder start to display traits. A four cornered model is used throughout football. The psychological corner alters. The challenges require players to display more  psychological fortitude (great term that) alongside their technical ability. The psychological 80% drives the rest. 

8 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think this leads to another problem as well. 

I'd imagine, to play football well, a player needs to be able to get in the right psychological zone to focus on their own game and it's hard to do that if you're constantly second guessing what your teammates are going to do and if they are going to do their jobs properly. As soon as the team is set up in a way where everyone is confident that other players know and can do their jobs, it makes their own jobs much easier to do.

If you're constantly unsure what position other players are going to take up, and you're continually steeling yourself to cover for their mistakes, how can you put in a good performance? Stick a striker on the wing, a centre back at left wing and a midfielder in the team who hasn't played regularly for 18 months and barely knows his teammates and you are pretty much guaranteeing anxious, risk averse performances from the rest of the team. 

I may sound like LJ here. The aim ultimately is flow states. That is perfection. To reach this state clarity (LJ) is necessary. Clarity and its repetition feeds confidence. Clarity and its repetition if done enough can create football that sees players acting subconsciously during play, making complex decisions in milliseconds as they recognise the pictures and patterns in front of them. 

The behaviours in your last paragraph almost certainly will not support and create a confident team. There will be individual outliers. Adversity for some sparks their fighters response v freeze and flight - Some as we are wired very differently.

[AshtonGreat]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think it's a bit of a myth that how much you get paid dictates how professional you are. I don't think working in an industry that renumerates people well means that people are any less affected by fluctuations in confidence or reactions to how they are treated. Ultimately footballers get the salary they do on the basis of their footballing abilities, not because they've shown any particular feats of psychological fortitude, and I think it's a bit of a myth to link the two. 

Fair point, but I think the very least they should be doing is giving 100%, and I'm not sure many of them were

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I think Kasey's advanced role was very important. With the exceptional pair behind him too.

No coincidence that getting the midfield playing well and blend right and our strikers look much better.

It really shouldn't amaze me, but it did amaze me seeing Wells and Diedhiou passing it first time to someone supporting them. Something I can't remember seeing from them before. One and two touch stuff from the class midfield, but also by Wells and Fam. That did kind of stop happening the longer the game went on though as we got deeper and the support was not there.

In Holden's preferred 352 with 1 holder and 2 box to box, we'd often have our wing backs not not very advanced. And with us deep and our midfielders deep too, it would really make the strikers job difficult.

I don't think Fam was suddenly trying harder. Just that he was far more effective with a team set up well around him. Maybe Boro tactics helped us. Every game will be different so I'm not getting too excited.

 

 

Interesting you say about Palmer being advanced.....did you see it as a 5212 / 3412, Nagy and Bakinson behind Palmer?

I didn’t see it like that at all....I saw it as Nagy and Palmer aside / slightly in front of Bakinson, but pretty fluid.  Don’t get me wrong they didn’t play like Weimann and Pato (two 8s).

What is more interest is that Simpson pre-game said it was two in front of Tyreeq / two behind the strikers.

[REDOXO]

13 hours ago, Redstoke said:

Because he was a clueless pratt?

Harsh!

However, for what ever reason it was a mess! Most of the supporters gave Dean the benefit of the doubt as the injury problems were insane. However what was clear is that he couldn’t get a performance out of what we had! We were slow getting out, couldn’t get past the forwards or  find a pass. 

Yesterday showed us that these fit players can compete at a good enough level to keep us up. The injury excuse no longer applies

[Kodjias Wrist]

2 hours ago, TedsHeadIs Red said:

Yes.

I am trying to offer up a suggestion as to why players didn't play for DH but apparently did for NP last night and why they can't play to the best of their ability regardless of who the boss is.

I respond to good or bad leadership in the same way. I'm not making excuses for bad attitude but it is a fact of life. The buck always stops with the boss. It was a bad appointment by MA but nobody put a gun to Dean's head to take it. It was his job to lead and motivate the players not MA's.

You are welcome to disagree as part of a friendly debate.

Yea absolutely I'm not shouting you down I agree everyone at one point or another will need some leadership or motivation from others. My response was regarding your generalising of footballers. I dont really agree with that at all but apologies that my response was rather rude. 

I'm not sure DH was entirely to blame he started well then faded out once he had to throw together teams due to injuries. I do feel we would be just in or outside the top six were the injuries not so long term, or as many.

[TedsHeadIs Red]

12 minutes ago, Kodjias Wrist said:

Yea absolutely I'm not shouting you down I agree everyone at one point or another will need some leadership or motivation from others. My response was regarding your generalising of footballers. I dont really agree with that at all but apologies that my response was rather rude. 

I'm not sure DH was entirely to blame he started well then faded out once he had to throw together teams due to injuries. I do feel we would be just in or outside the top six were the injuries not so long term, or as many.

Fair points. Thanks.

[Dan Robin]

Given that chemistry in a team and level of performances depend on many factors...it's normal to wonder if the change we saw yesterday could have arrived earlier and how aspects like the atmosphere in the dressing room and the amount of support received by Holden in recent times could have influenced our performances/results.

Right now, we must focus on our aim and don't think much about it...but in the summer the board will have a lot of things to analyze, and maybe these questions will find answers too.

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

I thought it was a bit lopsided but Palmer more advanced generally than Nagy who was dropping deeper. That's what I thought I was seeing anyway.

Yeah, no arguments there, Nagy generally dropped deeper on whichever side he found himself on.  I put some charts up on the Nagy thread, but here’s our 3 Midfielders in terms of duels.

Nagy (below) - mainly in the side positions and our third

Bakinson - mainly central(ish)

Palmer - mainly sides but a bit more forward

Think it generally shows they complimented each other well....which is the main thing....but also that they  were fluid....which was also good.

[LondonBristolian]

One other thing I'd add to this thread is that, whilst I wasn't in favour of Holden's appointment, it might have worked had it not been for three key points in the season.

Firstly, the injury to Weimann, who was integral to the 3-5-2 we were playing early in the season.

Secondly, after Holden had managed to find an alternative formation that worked in the form of a 4-3-3, the injury to O'Dowda who was integral to that system.

Thirdly, after we had strung some results together in January, the injury to Rowe and subsequent of absence of pretty much all of our left sided players, which robbed us of a structure in a way that Holden could not adapt to. 

None of this is to defend or exculpate Holden but the reality is that an inexperienced untested manager might work out as long as they are able to work within their preferred manner and might adapt to change to some extent. But multiple unforeseen setbacks can really set a manager back and it is times like that that you really need experience to understand how to respond to that adversity.

Ultimately I think our performances over recent weeks have been a response to a manager who is out of solutions and does not know a way forward, and who was probably inadvertently communicating that uncertainty to the players. I'm really excited to have a manager who can get us back on track again. 

[Riaz]

17 hours ago, Sniper said:

Am I happy that we've got Nigel in, yes of course.

Am I happy that we stopped the rot tonight, yes or course.

Am I happy with the players, like **** am I.

Dumb and Dumber picked the team against Barnsley and we lost at a whimper like the previous games!

Dumb and Dumber picked the team tonight?

So Nigel popped in and said hello, then they played like that, really!

They play when they want, and the point of this rant is I feel so sorry for Dean, why couldn't they play like that for him?

Have you heard of confidence??

the players were clearly very low on confidence.

The appointment of Nigel Pearson has lifted the whole club. ALL the fans are happy and the players no doubt have been lifted too. 
I don’t think they should be knocked for that.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'm conflicted on this one. Been thinking about it a lot in the last few weeks. Ultimately it's a fresh start for all.

I get the confidence aspect, the right pegs in the right holes, I fully get that. Respect for manager/leader- whatever- yeah all good points.

However it makes me question whether our players and I've thought this for a long while have an elite mentality or at least one that is applied consistently and regularly. I don't mean actual elite. What I mean is, looking to put out their best, their very best every week. Watching the Highlights of the games on Quest tonight I saw Wycombe beat Reading.

Not comparing the two results or performances, what I am suggesting is what while Wycombe e.g. are highly likely to go back down, for their level they have an elite mindset. Mentality- as in they will always give 100%, look to go to the max, strain every sinew. Terribly low wage bill, probably not many signed for a fee at all- and with sides down the bottom no fans might hit them particularly hard. Yet they're in there and fighting, 3-2 at Huddersfield from 2 down and beat Reading and drew at Millwall. They will go down fighting- and they will do so giving 100% in all games, in some respects applying an elite mentality/mindset.

Do we do this? More to the point if we do, how often is this? Certainly not most weeks of late! As I say by 'elite mentality' in this context I mean pure hunger, desire- straining every sinew that kind of thing. Tuesday was much more like it of course.

Think our squad are not bad individually, quite a number of decent technical players or those with other attributes but the 100% thing, the elite mentality- always keep going, maximising? That has to be the starting point. Hopefully Pearson will bring this- maybe it is one of the missing pieces in the jigsaw.