Disgusted with the players attitude

[swanker]

On 24/02/2021 at 00:12, Sniper said:

Am I happy that we've got Nigel in, yes of course.

Am I happy that we stopped the rot tonight, yes or course.

Am I happy with the players, like **** am I.

Dumb and Dumber picked the team against Barnsley and we lost at a whimper like the previous games!

Dumb and Dumber picked the team tonight?

So Nigel popped in and said hello, then they played like that, really!

They play when they want, and the point of this rant is I feel so sorry for Dean, why couldn't they play like that for him?

I don’t think Wells, as a goal scoring striker   appreciated being played on the wing a lot. I wonder if Pearson will play him out of position?

[exAtyeoMax]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'm conflicted on this one. Been thinking about it a lot in the last few weeks. Ultimately it's a fresh start for all.

I get the confidence aspect, the right pegs in the right holes, I fully get that. Respect for manager/leader- whatever- yeah all good points.

However it makes me question whether our players and I've thought this for a long while have an elite mentality or at least one that is applied consistently and regularly. I don't mean actual elite. What I mean is, looking to put out their best, their very best every week. Watching the Highlights of the games on Quest tonight I saw Wycombe beat Reading.

Not comparing the two results or performances, what I am suggesting is what while Wycombe e.g. are highly likely to go back down, for their level they have an elite mindset. Mentality- as in they will always give 100%, look to go to the max, strain every sinew. Terribly low wage bill, probably not many signed for a fee at all- and with sides down the bottom no fans might hit them particularly hard. Yet they're in there and fighting, 3-2 at Huddersfield from 2 down and beat Reading and drew at Millwall. They will go down fighting- and they will do so giving 100% in all games, in some respects applying an elite mentality/mindset.

Do we do this? More to the point if we do, how often is this? Certainly not most weeks of late! As I say by 'elite mentality' in this context I mean pure hunger, desire- straining every sinew that kind of thing. Tuesday was much more like it of course.

Think our squad are not bad individually, quite a number of decent technical players or those with other attributes but the 100% thing, the elite mentality- always keep going, maximising? That has to be the starting point. Hopefully Pearson will bring this- maybe it is one of the missing pieces in the jigsaw.

I know what you mean. Putting your body on the line mentality. Survival mentality?

[SecretSam]

Sometimes, OTIB really surprises me! There's some great debate on here about the philosophy of motivation and leadership.

And no, it's not about money. Saying someone should be consistently brilliant because of their pay ignores everything that makes them human.

[RedRock]

20 hours ago, bcfcbulgaria said:

Lansbury as DM, Vyner in midfield while Nagy on the bench, Wells out wide etc.

Yep.
 

While I’m not in the ‘Holden was absolute garbage’ camp, there are serious questions over his selections and playing players out of position. That said, performance inconsistency, which has been a major bugbear with us for the last 4 years did not help.

Take Nagy. I think a real purple patch over/around the Xmas period - looked a world beater. Then, it just disappeared and he became a bang average lightweight. My suspicion was he was part of that Covid/suspected Covid outbreak in Feb. That could be the only reason for his form to drop off a cliff edge.

He wasn’t the only one though...and it’s very difficult to build a team when players are just so hot/cold.

Vyner was worth a try in midfield as he had played their previously, we had a total lack of strength/bottle in DM and the guy was in form and looked like he had a good skill set. Plus we had cover in the centre back positions. The experiment after 4 or so matches failed. Holden should have recognised that and aborted the idea. He didn’t. 

Wells on the wing, I just didn't get.

[LondonBristolian]

43 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Yep.
 

While I’m not in the ‘Holden was absolute garbage’ camp, there are serious questions over his selections and playing players out of position. That said, performance inconsistency, which has been a major bugbear with us for the last 4 years did not help.

Take Nagy. I think a real purple patch over/around the Xmas period - looked a world beater. Then, it just disappeared and he became a bang average lightweight. My suspicion was he was part of that Covid/suspected Covid outbreak in Feb. That could be the only reason for his form to drop off a cliff edge.

He wasn’t the only one though...and it’s very difficult to build a team when players are just so hot/cold.

Vyner was worth a try in midfield as he had played their previously, we had a total lack of strength/bottle in DM and the guy was in form and looked like he had a good skill set. Plus we had cover in the centre back positions. The experiment after 4 or so matches failed. Holden should have recognised that and aborted the idea. He didn’t. 

Wells on the wing, I just didn't get.

Players played out of position in struggling teams seems to happen a lot - not just with us but I think most fans of clubs would have had points where they would have made the same criticism of their then-manager.

I wonder if it is a basic psychological thing in management. You take the job, start trying to do things in a simple straightforward way and that works for a while but, when things stop working, you start complicating things and then complicating them further still when that doesn’t work and suddenly find yourself at a point where nobody is in the right position and you lose the clarity of mindset to go back to simplifying things again.

One thing I would say - and I know this is at odds with other posters - is I think the idea of Vyner in midfield is worth revisiting in the future. I think he played well there in a couple of games and has got the attributes for it to become a good option in the second half of games we are winning and we want to stop the opposition getting control of the middle of the pitch.

The issue for me is that the time to try it is ideally pre-season, and at a point when we have good options in defence. I don’t think the idea of Vyner in midfield is a bad one at all. I think the idea of Vyner learning to be a midfielder in a struggling team when we lack confidence, lack solidity in defence and other players are out of position too was the major error.

[cidered abroad]

On 24/02/2021 at 02:19, Gakoe said:

 Unfortunately modern football creates modern footballers. Sulky, petulant, overpaid, mollycoddled etc. It's too easy to just blame Holden's tactics, they stopped playing for him a while back imo. 

Or, maybe a lot of them are now getting excited about the clubs future and want to be a part of it?

I dunno, whatever the reason I'm just effin glad it's happened. 

It has always been so.

On another thread in last couple of days was posted a link to City v Boro in 1959 on You Tube.

We won 2-0 and in that game were, imo, five players that I regard as worthy of City Legend status.

Tony Cook, Tommy Burden, John Atyeo, Jimmy Rogers and Mike Thresher. Hundreds of games per player and two of our highest goalscorers.

Yet that side had dressing room splits, a manager, Peter Doherty, who had upset those players big time and we got relegated.

It can happen to any club, at any time for major or trivial reasons and if the rot sets in, it is very hard to eradicate.

[RedRock]

4 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Players played out of position in struggling teams seems to happen a lot - not just with us but I think most fans of clubs would have had points where they would have made the same criticism of their then-manager.

I wonder if it is a basic psychological thing in management. You take the job, start trying to do things in a simple straightforward way and that works for a while but, when things stop working, you start complicating things and then complicating them further still when that doesn’t work and suddenly find yourself at a point where nobody is in the right position and you lose the clarity of mindset to go back to simplifying things again.

One thing I would say - and I know this is at odds with other posters - is I think the idea of Vyner in midfield is worth revisiting in the future. I think he played well there in a couple of games and has got the attributes for it to become a good option in the second half of games we are winning and we want to stop the opposition getting control of the middle of the pitch.

The issue for me is that the time to try it is ideally pre-season, and at a point when we have good options in defence. I don’t think the idea of Vyner in midfield is a bad one at all. I think the idea of Vyner learning to be a midfielder in a struggling team when we lack confidence, lack solidity in defence and other players are out of position too was the major error.

Agreed.

I was advocating trying Vyner as a DM before Holden moved him there. 

As Pearson said yesterday, you try youngsters when other senior players are in a position to help them. Clearly, they weren’t! 
 

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

It has always been so.

On another thread in last couple of days was posted a link to City v Boro in 1959 on You Tube.

We won 2-0 and in that game were, imo, five players that I regard as worthy of City Legend status.

Tony Cook, Tommy Burden, John Atyeo, Jimmy Rogers and Mike Thresher. Hundreds of games per player and two of our highest goalscorers.

Yet that side had dressing room splits, a manager, Peter Doherty, who had upset those players big time and we got relegated.

It can happen to any club, at any time for major or trivial reasons and if the rot sets in, it is very hard to eradicate.

I might be wrong but I suspect there are a lot of posters on this thread who have forgotten how sulky and petulant they sometimes were in the workplace in their teens and twenties. I know for certain I could be an absolute dick to line manage at times and I reckon most people, if honest, would admit the same.

[Alessandro]

6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'm conflicted on this one. Been thinking about it a lot in the last few weeks. Ultimately it's a fresh start for all.

I get the confidence aspect, the right pegs in the right holes, I fully get that. Respect for manager/leader- whatever- yeah all good points.

However it makes me question whether our players and I've thought this for a long while have an elite mentality or at least one that is applied consistently and regularly. I don't mean actual elite. What I mean is, looking to put out their best, their very best every week. Watching the Highlights of the games on Quest tonight I saw Wycombe beat Reading.

Not comparing the two results or performances, what I am suggesting is what while Wycombe e.g. are highly likely to go back down, for their level they have an elite mindset. Mentality- as in they will always give 100%, look to go to the max, strain every sinew. Terribly low wage bill, probably not many signed for a fee at all- and with sides down the bottom no fans might hit them particularly hard. Yet they're in there and fighting, 3-2 at Huddersfield from 2 down and beat Reading and drew at Millwall. They will go down fighting- and they will do so giving 100% in all games, in some respects applying an elite mentality/mindset.

Do we do this? More to the point if we do, how often is this? Certainly not most weeks of late! As I say by 'elite mentality' in this context I mean pure hunger, desire- straining every sinew that kind of thing. Tuesday was much more like it of course.

Think our squad are not bad individually, quite a number of decent technical players or those with other attributes but the 100% thing, the elite mentality- always keep going, maximising? That has to be the starting point. Hopefully Pearson will bring this- maybe it is one of the missing pieces in the jigsaw.

It’s an interesting comparison with Wycombe but it’s worth remembering they go out to every game with the underdog mentality; that can be hugely liberating. Even when they lose, it’s tempered with, well look no one expected us to win. It’s also worth noting the squad is full of players who are, in a different way, always in the shop window potentially playing for their next move. You know your team is going down, so you want to secure a move to stay at this level for your future career development.

I wonder if we, on the other hand have a different phycology - yes we have those younger players working for a big move or promotion - but as a by product of where we are in the championship, we now have a group of players who have “found their level” - I.E have had to drop down from prem to find regular football or are in latter stages of career knowing promotion is likely to see them upgraded in the squad. Wells, Martin, Pato, Weimann, Lansbury, Mapps, Hunt, Rowe for example. That’s quite a chunk of the squad and I might be being unfair on some. But their motivation is likely to be very different.

That ties in to recruitment - yes you’ve got to have a balance of experience and youth in your squad, but you’ve got to make sure the experienced players are really onboard - look at Holden signing Lansbury. Experience he needed in the team, but not the fight he needed more.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

Yep.
 

While I’m not in the ‘Holden was absolute garbage’ camp, there are serious questions over his selections and playing players out of position. That said, performance inconsistency, which has been a major bugbear with us for the last 4 years did not help.

Take Nagy. I think a real purple patch over/around the Xmas period - looked a world beater. Then, it just disappeared and he became a bang average lightweight. My suspicion was he was part of that Covid/suspected Covid outbreak in Feb. That could be the only reason for his form to drop off a cliff edge.

He wasn’t the only one though...and it’s very difficult to build a team when players are just so hot/cold.

Vyner was worth a try in midfield as he had played their previously, we had a total lack of strength/bottle in DM and the guy was in form and looked like he had a good skill set. Plus we had cover in the centre back positions. The experiment after 4 or so matches failed. Holden should have recognised that and aborted the idea. He didn’t. 

Wells on the wing, I just didn't get.

Or that he’s just inconsistent!!!

In the Nagy thread I likened him to Bagpuss (Nag-puss) and the mice in the mouse organ, when Bagpuss goes to sleep, so do all the mice in the mouse organ!.  When the team plays well, Nagy play well, and likewise when he and the team play poorly.  Is it Nagy driving the team on, or the team driving Nagy on?  My gut feel is that he’s a follower rather than the catalyst.  But, like all our players, it would be nice to form a true opinion over a series of games of a consistent team shape and players given a specific role.

Re Covid, with twice weekly testing, that seems unlikely, and also how does that cover his inconsistency pre-Xmas and team inconsistency all season?

[tin]

1 hour ago, RedRock said:

Take Nagy. I think a real purple patch over/around the Xmas period - looked a world beater. Then, it just disappeared and he became a bang average lightweight. My suspicion was he was part of that Covid/suspected Covid outbreak in Feb. That could be the only reason for his form to drop off a cliff edge.

I don't think that's the only reason.

While not dismissing your theory, Nagy looked lost when asked to play alongside an unfit Lansbury, an unfit Paterson and an unfit Williams. It was Holden's decision to start those players, rather than reintegrate them slowly, over the likes of Nagy, Bakinson, Palmer and Massengo. Madness, IMO. 

[RedRock]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Or that he’s just inconsistent!!!

In the Nagy thread I likened him to Bagpuss (Nag-puss) and the mice in the mouse organ, when Bagpuss goes to sleep, so do all the mice in the mouse organ!.  When the team plays well, Nagy play well, and likewise when he and the team play poorly.  Is it Nagy driving the team on, or the team driving Nagy on?  My gut feel is that he’s a follower rather than the catalyst.  But, like all our players, it would be nice to form a true opinion over a series of games of a consistent team shape and players given a specific role.

Re Covid, with twice weekly testing, that seems unlikely, and also how does that cover his inconsistency pre-Xmas and team inconsistency all season?

Yes, there’s always the thought that he could be one of our collection of ‘consistent, inconsistents’ ... but I rejected that idea on the basis that we already have more than our fair share of those and God wouldn’t give us another one.

I do think he can get dragged down levels by others ineptness, so you’re probably correct. Whether that would be a ‘follower’ in my book - possibly. Maybe a ‘reluctant follower’ and I suppose, on the plus side, he’s less inconsistent than most and can recover form quicker.

 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Yes, there’s always the thought that he could be one of our collection of ‘consistent, inconsistents’ ... but I rejected that idea on the basis that we already have more than our fair share of those and God wouldn’t give us another one.

I do think he can get dragged down levels by others ineptness, so you’re probably correct. Whether that would be a ‘follower’ in my book - possibly. Maybe a ‘reluctant follower’ and I suppose, on the plus side, he’s less inconsistent than most and can recover form quicker.

 

Yeah, and I’m sure it’s not a black or white as I paint it....just trying to describe it simply.

The only player who’s really played well all season, irrespective of the team performance is Bentley.  You might argue Kalas and Vyner at a push.

[LondonBristolian]

5 minutes ago, RedRock said:

Yes, there’s always the thought that he could be one of our collection of ‘consistent, inconsistents’ ... but I rejected that idea on the basis that we already have more than our fair share of those and God wouldn’t give us another one.

I do think he can get dragged down levels by others ineptness, so you’re probably correct. Whether that would be a ‘follower’ in my book - possibly. Maybe a ‘reluctant follower’ and I suppose, on the plus side, he’s less inconsistent than most and can recover form quicker.

 

The way I see it is Nagy is a player that is at his best as a cog in the system and can make himself a vital part of ensuring that system works. Unfortunately that does mean that, when there is no system, he's just a loose cog rolling around on the pitch...

[Rocking Red Cyril]

On 24/02/2021 at 08:48, Davefevs said:

But, but, but Wells doesn’t want to be here!

I think he just wanted some passes to run onto.

Why does Wells not want to be  here then 

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Why does Wells not want to be  here then 

Don’t ask me....ask all the OTIB posters who think he doesn’t!  I was being sarcastic.

[Rocking Red Cyril]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Don’t ask me....ask all the OTIB posters who think he doesn’t!  I was being sarcastic.

Ohhhh OK Sorry I missed the sarcastic bit about your comment. 

Seems to me that if you play him In his correct position he will score goals and be as happy as Larry 

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said:

Ohhhh OK Sorry I missed the sarcastic bit about your comment. 

Seems to me that if you play him In his correct position he will score goals and be as happy as Larry 

Yep.

[The Swan and Cemetery]

Doesn’t guarantee anything, but compared with youngsters coming through or those who’ve played only in lower leagues, think Nagy has enough Serie A and international games to indicate it’s unlikely he’s fundamentally poor.
 

As others have said, trying to cover for team mates who are either unfit or out of position, is likely to result in his performances not always being top notch. Think he’s one of our most consistent performers, generally one of the better ones, whether we’ve played badly or well.