Bentley, room for improvement.

[Rich]

Just now, Red_Alligator said:

Wished you'd never now!!

No not really, it's a sad day if you can't post on a forum for fear of being shot down. The blue few shoot down any questioning posters and look how they're doing.

I think it's correct to strive for better and not just blindly follow the popular line of thought. You can bet your life that Pearson is evaluating Bentley and his performances, so why can't we, as long as it's constructive and not just a player bashing exercise, which this isn't. 

[Rudolf Hucker]

I rate Bents so highly. He’s a keeper that, I’m sure, most Championship and some Prem clubs envy. I’m glad we have him.  
 

I am concerned that his only competition in the club is, by comparison, much less experienced. Don’t get me wrong, I’d have little worry (well, maybe just a little) about Max having to step in for Bents, if required but Max seems to play little competitive football atm so Bents doesn’t really have to fight too hard to keep his place. Sportsmen all thrive on competition; Bents is no exception. A more experienced rival may also help him to improve in a way he presently lacks?

[New Dazzler]

2 hours ago, Rich said:

I'm not one for slagging off a player who's been a stalwart of this team for quite a while now, so I waited for the dust to settle, to ask the question, can Bentley improve on what he does.

He's 28 this year and considered to be one of the best keepers in this division, by a lot of our fanbase anyway. He's an excellent shot stopper and good coming out in the one on ones. His handling is generally good, though he does spill a few into dangerous areas. His positional awareness is also good, which helps pulling off the saves he does. His footwork is good with and without the ball and his distribution is usually very good, so that's most of the good points covered, if I've missed any then apologies for that.

Now onto the points of where he can improve and needs to, in my opinion and it's basically just down to dominance of the area. I can't recall ever seeing our defence look so jittery as it has in recent times, not just this season, so the question is, why? I believe apart from the obvious when teams are running at the defence at will, it's down to organisation of that defence and knowing that there's someone there that will take command of the situation. This is where I believe there's room for improvement. I have seen numerous occasions where the keeper should have come to punch or collect a cross and take the pressure off defenders, instead of standing back and letting a cross zip across goal. I realise it's not possible for every cross, as some are too fast to react to but, being tall, athletic and quite nimble it's reasonable to expect that now and again, he'd come and collect a cross, or punch it clear, given those attributes. I don't think that every ball within the six yard area should be classed as the keepers ball but, the majority, yes, it's meat and drink for many competent keepers, sadly not yet for Bentley. Which leads me to their 2nd goal yesterday, it was a cross I thought he should have dealt with.

As I said, he's only 28, so there's time for him to improve on his already good ability and start dominating his area more than at present. Then he really would be a quality keeper.

In O'leary, we have a similar keeper that likes to stay rooted to his line.

I agree pretty much with all you have said there and, as others have said the reason he is playing for us, rather than in the Prem., is his lack of ability to command the six yard box.  I was more annoyed last night at Bournemouth's 2nd goal, as the first one was just a stupid mistake that happens.  The 2nd was a typical cross into the box from a set piece that, when we send them over into the 6 yard box, time and time again the opposing keeper just clutches it out of the air under pressure (Kasey's corner against Swansea being a notable exception). 

Bentley is a great shot-stopper, but I can't help noticing that a lot of these saves are only necessary because he has not claimed the original cross.  He rarely catches the ball in the box under pressure, when he does attempt to come for the ball he often seems to be flapping at it, ends up on his ass and draws a free kick.  So he usually gets away with it, either by producing a great save from close range, or by the ref coming to his aid. The consequence of this is that it also causes jitters in our defence, the reason that Kalas, hunt and others always seem to be blocking shots on the line is that they know he will not come for a cross, when it is clearly the keeper's ball to claim, so they have to cover the resulting goal attempt.  Last night it was his lack of ability in this area of his game that cost us.

As you said, it is not a matter of having a pop at DB just for the sake of it, he has dug us out many times.  I almost expect him to save those one-on-one shots, there was one or two in the first half at Swansea when I almost took it for granted that he would make the save when the forward should really be scoring. We all know his strengths, he plays the game to suit those strengths, and we pretty much take that side of his game for granted.  But yes, he could improve.  Niki Mäenpää was one of very few of our recent keepers that I have had confidence in with his commanding his area.  If Dan could get himself to somewhere near his level, he would be an outstanding goalie. 

[Keepers Ball]

If there was room for improvement and he succeeded he wouldn't be playing for us. he'd be in the Premier League

[ScottishRed]

58 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

If he makes a mistake on Saturday I guarantee there'll be people on here wanting him dropped. It only took a couple last season before the cries started.

He's a very good keeper. Not perfect, but if he was then he wouldn't be playing at this level for us.

I could not agree more. He is a fantastic keeper at this level - and let’s not forget, current circumstances aside, the Championship is one of the biggest leagues in Europe going by attendance numbers.

No player in this league can’t play and Bentley is a top keeper.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, sh1t_ref_again said:

I think he is a superb keeper, but like many modern keepers, the desire to parry rather than catch always looks a weakness, but I am not a goalkeeping coach, so maybe due to the ball they use now or other reasons that is the preferred method, but always seems to be waiting for disaster to happen.

Modern balls do move more due to their panelling (not slight reduction in weight) causing them to knuckle (serve without rotation). They are also easier to strike = They are hit harder = They are harder to catch. 

Statistically parrying the ball is more effective than attempting to catch the ball frequently.  

[Rob k]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Modern balls do move more due to their panelling (not slight reduction in weight) causing them to knuckle (serve without rotation). They are also easier to strike = They are hit harder = They are harder to catch. 

Statistically parrying the ball is more effective than attempting to catch the ball frequently.  

Effective in what? 

[Cowshed]

Just now, Rob k said:

Effective in what? 

Reducing error and creating opportunity for the opposition. 

[MarcusX]

He obviously isn't perfect, as other's have said if he was he wouldnt be here.

He's the best keeper we've had in my lifetime and he'd probably make the step up to the Prem

I think people suggesting he's England quality are going too far in their praise for him but I can't criticise him for one mistake, especially when you could argue he had at least half an eye on Hunt on the ground

[054123]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The only thing I’d criticise him for this season is on occasion he lets his defence get on top of him.  He has improved this though.

I played in goal to a relatively decent level and this is exactly the problem. 

It’s not that he never comes for balls, it’s that he retreats in line with the defence far too much. 

I always think of evaluating players like a Top Trumps card. Is Dan Bentley a great keeper? Yes. Is his overall score excellent? Yes. Is his lowest score to be found in collecting crosses? Yes.

Its not a bad thing, very few players will excel everywhere.

[Trueredsupporter]

When you play deep like City do keepers dont come for crosses.

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, 054123 said:

I played in goal to a relatively decent level and this is exactly the problem. 

It’s not that he never comes for balls, it’s that he retreats in line with the defence far too much. 

I always think of evaluating players like a Top Trumps card. Is Dan Bentley a great keeper? Yes. Is his overall score excellent? Yes. Is his lowest score to be found in collecting crosses? Yes.

Its not a bad thing, very few players will excel everywhere.

Retreating is what he should do. The starting point is relational to the defence. If you want the Keeper higher you push up. Think of City's line of recent Keepers and they all stay because the defence sits in and has been instructed to be deep and compact. Want something different, bolder push the line up and coach the keeper and team to control the space. 

Seasons ago I wrote some waffle about City pressing high and pushing the team up and potential keepers who could be signed to progress that football. Bentley was one. The team with Bentley has become progressively deeper and passive. 

[Bryans Left Peg]

Bents is easily our player of the season and I refuse to acknowledge that he may have flaws.

[Always Believesham]

People look at strikers in the championship who occassionally miss chances and say "if they scored them, they wouldn't be playing in the championship". I think the same could be said of Bentley as a goalkeeper. I think if he was any better, he would not be at Bristol City.

I think there are worse goalkeepers at 'bigger' clubs and if we needed to replace Bentley, they would be considered out of our reach.

 

[bcfc01]

11 hours ago, The Horse With No Name said:

Pat Jennings never parried, indeed he caught everything with one hand, and in fact, no gloves. 

Different balls....

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Retreating is what he should do. The starting point is relational to the defence. If you want the Keeper higher you push up. Think of City's line of recent Keepers and they all stay because the defence sits in and has been instructed to be deep and compact. Want something different, bolder push the line up and coach the keeper and team to control the space. 

Seasons ago I wrote some waffle about City pressing high and pushing the team up and potential keepers who could be signed to progress that football. Bentley was one. The team with Bentley has become progressively deeper and passive. 

Maenpaa was better at keeping his back line for dropping onto him.  I think we understand the bit about its relational to the defence, it’s more that there becomes a point where you’ve allowed your defence to drop so deep, you’re on your line and can go no further....especially from opposition set pieces.

Bentley has allowed that to creep back in, having been better earlier this season.  That may have also been down to Mawson’s influence too.

[054123]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Retreating is what he should do. The starting point is relational to the defence. If you want the Keeper higher you push up. Think of City's line of recent Keepers and they all stay because the defence sits in and has been instructed to be deep and compact. Want something different, bolder push the line up and coach the keeper and team to control the space. 

Seasons ago I wrote some waffle about City pressing high and pushing the team up and potential keepers who could be signed to progress that football. Bentley was one. The team with Bentley has become progressively deeper and passive. 

I agree with you. I meant when dealing with balls into the box, he retreats in line with his defence, to the point where he’s on his goal line.

[big dosser]

best goalkeeper in the championship for me, the mistake in the week could have been down to a lack of concentration with hunt being injured on the floor in front of him.it happens. Back in the day goalkeepers was there to stop the ball going in the net and kick it out, now they are a sweeper.

[Cowshed]

On 05/03/2021 at 12:38, 054123 said:

I agree with you. I meant when dealing with balls into the box, he retreats in line with his defence, to the point where he’s on his goal line.

And this can and is due to the proximity of his centre backs. They drop off controlling the space rather than the other away around and the keeper looks to control the space. City's back line is consistently deep v crosses and in particular free kicks. Modern defending trends with modern footballing Keepers have been reversing defending so deep.

Bentley makes few interventions outside of the box. He doesn't sweep. City bought a modern footballing keeper and don't use a primary asset. Bentley should be adept at resetting possession and starting counter attacks but the way City play diminishes that skill he possesses. A improvement that could be made relatively easy is the centre backs pushing up v providing so much depth and Bentley advancing to join in. 

[Numero Uno]

On 04/03/2021 at 21:12, Northern Red said:

If he makes a mistake on Saturday I guarantee there'll be people on here wanting him dropped. It only took a couple last season before the cries started.

He's a very good keeper. Not perfect, but if he was then he wouldn't be playing at this level for us.

Spot on. It’s the internet where every mistake is micro analysed. Just go back one week and without his performance first half at the Liberty we are 3-0 down and out of the game. A game we ended up winning. People wanting him to dominate his area forget that the deeper you defend the harder that becomes. To dominate your penalty area you need enough space to get to the ball first, keep coming for balls that are 50/50 challenges and it’s impossible to dominate. It’s inevitable you will drop one or two no matter how good your handling is.

Our defensive line is tactical not down to the keeper and hopefully that is an issue that Pearson addresses as the team performances improve. The goal on Tuesday was simply a bad error that EVERY keeper makes not just Dan Bentley.

[Cowshed]

39 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Spot on. It’s the internet where every mistake is micro analysed. Just go back one week and without his performance first half at the Liberty we are 3-0 down and out of the game. A game we ended up winning. People wanting him to dominate his area forget that the deeper you defend the harder that becomes. To dominate your penalty area you need enough space to get to the ball first, keep coming for balls that are 50/50 challenges and it’s impossible to dominate. It’s inevitable you will drop one or two no matter how good your handling is.

Our defensive line is tactical not down to the keeper and hopefully that is an issue that Pearson addresses as the team performances improve. The goal on Tuesday was simply a bad error that EVERY keeper makes not just Dan Bentley.

Error will be and has to be a regular consequence if the Keeper frequently comes for the ball. There are players in his road. The defenders kill the space that allows the keeper to dominate. Its inevitable that the keeper will not be able to get to the ball consistently without being impeded by his own players.

It is tactical. Defending with compactness and depth should constantly create numerical superiority meaning the defenders deal with the ball in the zone they have been positioned in to control.

[Always red]

He is a big lad but still doesn't physically command as much as he should. Seems OK at communicating and distribution, one on ones and shot stopping. Reminds me of Ray Cashley and some other City keepers in the past with his skill set ie no good at crosses into the box. Always worry that he has the continental approach of punching those he should catch. B***s up the other day affecting him?

[Rich]

Having read through the posts, there seems to be a little consensus that there is something going wrong, between the defence and the keeper, either the keeper is hesitant to come or the defence are too deep. That is apart from those that think he's the best keeper in the division.

Frequently when there's a cross into the box the defence is in disarray, Bentley seems to have defenders too close to him, restricting his ability to come and get the ball, why is that?

Is it the coaching that decides those defenders must deal with the cross? Is it that Bentley wants the defenders to deal with the cross? Is it that Bentley isn't trusted by either the defenders, or the coaches, to deal with the cross? Is it the opposition delivering balls into the box that are difficult to deal with? Possibly a combination of all.

Either way, it has to be sorted out. I've always thought that Bentley flaps a little at crosses and should be stronger both mentaly and physically in that scenario. If the defenders don't have that confidence in him then, it falls on them to deal with it, not being the biggest team by a long way, we invariably lose out in that competition and we then rely on Bentley having to make a good reaction save, which in fairness he does on a regular basis. This is when people think he's a great keeper but, he wouldn't need to make those saves if it were more organised. I believe that organisation should be mainly carried out/sorted, between the defenders and the keeper. I believe that Dan Bentley should be more dominant in his organisation of the defence, demanding that they give him more room and holding a higher line.

Did I remember correctly that Bentley had a confidence problem when at Brentford? If so, perhaps where this problem lies, is the ability to be a bit mentaly stronger.

Two interesting articles about Bentley, perhaps, according to the first article, he might just not be what some consider, the best in the league, but, admittedly it's a little out of date.

Just how good has Dan Bentley been? Comparing the Bristol City No1 against the Championship's finest - Bristol Live (bristolpost.co.uk)

From Football London.

A typically mixed display by Daniel Bentley

If ever there was a performance to sum up Daniel Bentley's career in a Brentford shirt, this was it.

A splendid penalty save and follow-up save from Lewis Grabban's effort, alongside a couple of nerve-wracking moments ensured that the travelling Brentford fans saw both the brilliant best and worrying worst of the Bees number one.

Thankfully for Bentley, his performance evened out over the 90 minutes, but as we've already learned, there's no such thing as a dull afternoon when Bentley is involved.

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, Rich said:

Having read through the posts, there seems to be a little consensus that there is something going wrong, between the defence and the keeper, either the keeper is hesitant to come or the defence are too deep. That is apart from those that think he's the best keeper in the division.

Frequently when there's a cross into the box the defence is in disarray, Bentley seems to have defenders too close to him, restricting his ability to come and get the ball, why is that?

Is it the coaching that decides those defenders must deal with the cross? Is it that Bentley wants the defenders to deal with the cross? Is it that Bentley isn't trusted by either the defenders, or the coaches, to deal with the cross? Is it the opposition delivering balls into the box that are difficult to deal with? Possibly a combination of all.

Either way, it has to be sorted out. I've always thought that Bentley flaps a little at crosses and should be stronger both mentaly and physically in that scenario. If the defenders don't have that confidence in him then, it falls on them to deal with it, not being the biggest team by a long way, we invariably lose out in that competition and we then rely on Bentley having to make a good reaction save, which in fairness he does on a regular basis. This is when people think he's a great keeper but, he wouldn't need to make those saves if it were more organised. I believe that organisation should be mainly carried out/sorted, between the defenders and the keeper. I believe that Dan Bentley should be more dominant in his organisation of the defence, demanding that they give him more room and holding a higher line.

Did I remember correctly that Bentley had a confidence problem when at Brentford? If so, perhaps where this problem lies, is the ability to be a bit mentaly stronger.

Two interesting articles about Bentley, perhaps, according to the first article, he might just not be what some consider, the best in the league, but, admittedly it's a little out of date.

Just how good has Dan Bentley been? Comparing the Bristol City No1 against the Championship's finest - Bristol Live (bristolpost.co.uk)

From Football London.

A typically mixed display by Daniel Bentley

If ever there was a performance to sum up Daniel Bentley's career in a Brentford shirt, this was it.

A splendid penalty save and follow-up save from Lewis Grabban's effort, alongside a couple of nerve-wracking moments ensured that the travelling Brentford fans saw both the brilliant best and worrying worst of the Bees number one.

Thankfully for Bentley, his performance evened out over the 90 minutes, but as we've already learned, there's no such thing as a dull afternoon when Bentley is involved.

Defensive lines for defending to transition from attacking to defending to set plays are sorted out on the training pitch. City have been instructed to be deep and compact. Its never just sorted out on the pitch, the responses reflect the training. Its been a consistent with numerous keepers in goal not just Bentley. Depth and compactness is not always a reflection of the Keeper, its a reflection of the coaches view of the teams skill set - City do not play high from the front and drop off into a medium block and deeper. That has nothing to do with Bentley. 

Given Bentley's technical ability with his feet doing very different is  a possibility. 

[Red_Alligator]

Let in two more today. Awful. Time to drop him and let one of the youngsters have a go.

 

 

 

[Rich]

18 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Defensive lines for defending to transition from attacking to defending to set plays are sorted out on the training pitch. City have been instructed to be deep and compact. Its never just sorted out on the pitch, the responses reflect the training. Its been a consistent with numerous keepers in goal not just Bentley. Depth and compactness is not always a reflection of the Keeper, its a reflection of the coaches view of the teams skill set - City do not play high from the front and drop off into a medium block and deeper. That has nothing to do with Bentley. 

Given Bentley's technical ability with his feet doing very different is  a possibility. 

I'm sorry for the late reply. I don't think I've ever said that this must be sorted out "just" on the pitch. I don't recal Maenpa having too much of a problem commanding his area. And Frankie before that had bigger defenders in front of him, when I don't recal similar issues. O'leary seems also to be hesitant to venture too far from his line.

It's pretty obvious that the situation when crosses are zipping into the box and not being dealt with by either the defence or the keeper. As in, when it goes between defence and keeper and across goal, that something is not right. We have been lucky recently that the attacking players have not quite taken advantage, so if Bentley, or the defenders are not dealing with this, then the coaching is going wrong. So someone has to take responsibility on the pitch, they can't stop the game and discuss training patterns. I'm saying that, because Bentley is in a position where he can see all in front of him, the decision making process in the heat of the moment relies on him being decisive and instructing his defenders accordingly, along with other instructions. If as I believe, the defence are hesitant in not knowing if he's coming or not, that will naturally pull them closer to the goal, ending up with a deeper defence, looking like it's how it's supposed to be and I can't believe this is intentional.

Obviously, it would help if we were able to actually stop balls into the box more effectively, in the first place.

[Cowshed]

30 minutes ago, Rich said:

I'm sorry for the late reply. I don't think I've ever said that this must be sorted out "just" on the pitch. I don't recal Maenpa having too much of a problem commanding his area. And Frankie before that had bigger defenders in front of him, when I don't recal similar issues. O'leary seems also to be hesitant to venture too far from his line.

It's pretty obvious that the situation when crosses are zipping into the box and not being dealt with by either the defence or the keeper. As in, when it goes between defence and keeper and across goal, that something is not right. We have been lucky recently that the attacking players have not quite taken advantage, so if Bentley, or the defenders are not dealing with this, then the coaching is going wrong. So someone has to take responsibility on the pitch, they can't stop the game and discuss training patterns. I'm saying that, because Bentley is in a position where he can see all in front of him, the decision making process in the heat of the moment relies on him being decisive and instructing his defenders accordingly, along with other instructions. If as I believe, the defence are hesitant in not knowing if he's coming or not, that will naturally pull them closer to the goal, ending up with a deeper defence, looking like it's how it's supposed to be and I can't believe this is intentional.

Obviously, it would help if we were able to actually stop balls into the box more effectively, in the first place.

City don't stop balls into the box. They drop off. That is under various Managers. That decision process occurs on the training pitch. The heat of the moment must be prepared for in training. City's decision is to drop off, not work crosses and defend the ball in numbers . Bentley consistently does not come for crosses. Its not his role to frequently claim the ball because of the way the team set up.  the defence are not hesitant, The defensive line is formed quite quickly and deeply. Across various sections of play the team is deep. City defend with depth. Its wholly intentional. 

 

[Rich]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

City don't stop balls into the box. They drop off. That is under various Managers. That decision process occurs on the training pitch. The heat of the moment must be prepared for in training. City's decision is to drop off, not work crosses and defend the ball in numbers . Bentley consistently does not come for crosses. Its not his role to frequently claim the ball because of the way the team set up.  the defence are not hesitant, The defensive line is formed quite quickly and deeply. Across various sections of play the team is deep. City defend with depth. Its wholly intentional. 

 

Sorry, I wasn't understanding before, this is all planned. I couldn't help that, sorry.

I know about the way we set up but, if something isn't working, what would you suggest happens.

As it is, we have defenders and a keeper who are failing to deal with crosses and, according to you, we are actively allowing teams to  put crosses into the danger area. Surely something has to change. 

I'm sorry but when I see Bentley start to come for a cross, then retreat back onto his line, I can't believe that is not being indecisive, especially when he could have collected or diverted that cross away from the danger area. Though there are obviously times when that is in effect the best decision.

[Cowshed]

17 minutes ago, Rich said:

Sorry, I wasn't understanding before, this is all planned. I couldn't help that, sorry.

I know about the way we set up but, if something isn't working, what would you suggest happens.

As it is, we have defenders and a keeper who are failing to deal with crosses and, according to you, we are actively allowing teams to  put crosses into the danger area. Surely something has to change. 

I'm sorry but when I see Bentley start to come for a cross, then retreat back onto his line, I can't believe that is not being indecisive, especially when he could have collected or diverted that cross away from the danger area. Though there are obviously times when that is in effect the best decision.

I would change it. If your Keeper and CB's are struggling with balls into the box. Stop the supply. 

If you feel a Keeper and CB's are indecisive why? What is the approach? Are tasks clearly defined? Mr Pearson has a liking for the word clarity. Indecision should be trained out by repetition - That is your ball in that zone, you are in control here, he marks there, this is our line, you stay or not ... I don't think the Keeper is indecisive. He comes for very little.

A improvement. I would like to see Bentley away from crosses stand on the edge of his box, He has seriously good feet. He can do what the centre backs do and switch play, his switching is good, his driven passes very good, his javelin throw has real range. City bought a player with these notable distribution skills and do not use them freely enough. We have a modern keeper whose best bits are not the traditional it just stops shots and catches crosses but best bits are what is two thirds (the feet) of goalkeeping, there is simple improvement there to be made - Bentley has started taking the odd free kick outside the box, progress his key skills.

[Rich]

4 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

I would change it. If your Keeper and CB's are struggling with balls into the box. Stop the supply. 

If you feel a Keeper and CB's are indecisive why? What is the approach? Are tasks clearly defined? Mr Pearson has a liking for the word clarity. Indecision should be trained out by repetition - That is your ball in that zone, you are in control here, he marks there, this is our line, you stay or not ... I don't think the Keeper is indecisive. He comes for very little.

A improvement. I would like to see Bentley away from crosses stand on the edge of his box, He has seriously good feet. He can do what the centre backs do and switch play, his switching is good, his driven passes very good, his javelin throw has real range, City bought a plyer with these skills and do not use them freely enough. We have a modern keeper whose best bits are not the traditional it stops shots and catches crosses (not very modern) but best bits are what is two thirds (the feet) of goalkeeping, there is simple improvement there to be made - Bentley has started taking the odd free kick outside the box, progress his foot skills. 

I agree about his attributes and, that they are not being used, as he could be utilised as a deep sweeper.

I think what you are saying is that there must be a misunderstanding between defence and the keeper, on whose responsibility this or that duty is pre determined. So, someone has to be more decisive and take responsibility.