Who needs shipping out in the summer?

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Best football under Johnson featured a two that did not include Diedhiou. Bobby Reid really toiled.

The player has played over a hundred league games. For a large chunk of those he had numerous partners. The success of those partnerships is questionable. The inconsistent consistent was Diedhiou. 

Bristol City dropped its high tempo high pressing game because Diedhiou lacked the defensive tactical intensity to do it. That's physical and mental toil. Has not got it. 

 

Amen again brother Cowshed.

Leaves a lot of work for others to do doesn’t it.  Games like Brentford and Huddersfield where the CB that Fam was meant to be closing (Beck-Sorensen and Sarr who’s a bomb scare) strolled out of defence into midfield to create the extra man in an over-worked midfield.

 

[Superjack]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

With replacements like Diedhiou.

Its obvious (you agree) with respect if he is in the XI and does not possess the required skill set. The football thus has to change.

The points I picked up on was toil and partners. The player had numerous partners. He did not toil on his own for a LOT of games. His partnerships fared? Not particularly well. This can be a case of the limitations of this player. 

I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong. Johnson had him one up front for at least a season and a half.

[Superjack]

1 minute ago, Rob k said:

But that’s untrue - he played Reid up top in pre season so it wasn’t forced in to it 

He could have played Flint up top in pre-season. 

[RobintheRed Red]

3 hours ago, GasDestroyer said:

I will tell you who needs shipping out this summer.

That *** Ashton who instigated the signing of this rabble. Ashton OUT!

Johnson and Ashton signings much the same as each other wide miffielders who play all the same .

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, Superjack said:

I agree that he doesn't lend himself well to a pressing game. But the reason we dropped our high tempo pressing game that season is because we couldn't maintain it for a continuous period of time. Johnson then had no ideas. He only really stumbled on Reid upfront and the pressing game because he was forced into it with an injury situation.

Then again, maybe I just don't rate Johnson. Much like you don't rate Diedhiou.

We can’t even play a mid-block with Fam, because in effect it just means the opposition start their attack 30 yards further forward!!

2 minutes ago, Rob k said:

But that’s untrue - he played Reid up top in pre season so it wasn’t forced in to it 

It was because Taylor and Djuric were injured all pre+season pretty much, and Fam was settling in after his move.  

[lenred]

27 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Say Weimann is on £15-18k per week and his year option is at that wage.

Assuming we can see true recovery from his ACL (he’s doing remarkably well), then I’d be looking at renegotiating a new deal, say something like a 2 year deal at £10-12k.

Re Walsh, again, little point offering him a year.  If you want him to stay, it’s got to be because you rate him, and therefore you offer at least 2 years, maybe 2+1 or 3.

But don’t re-contract anyone to be a club in the bag.  Only re-contract those you genuinely believe in.

Still a massive risk for me at that money, injury considered. Not popular on here it seems as most seem keen to keep him but AWs stock seems to have gone up massively by way of being injured and away from the shit show of the last few months.  Nothing against him but I’d get rid personally. 

[mozo]

30 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Say Weimann is on £15-18k per week and his year option is at that wage.

Assuming we can see true recovery from his ACL (he’s doing remarkably well), then I’d be looking at renegotiating a new deal, say something like a 2 year deal at £10-12k.

Re Walsh, again, little point offering him a year.  If you want him to stay, it’s got to be because you rate him, and therefore you offer at least 2 years, maybe 2+1 or 3.

But don’t re-contract anyone to be a club in the bag.  Only re-contract those you genuinely believe in.

I endorse this 100%

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Superjack said:

I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong. Johnson had him one up front for at least a season and a half.

Which one and half seasons are you talking about?  We did t play one up front for a season and a half.  Johnson barely kept the sane system for one and a half games let alone seasons!!!

Diedhiou and Reid then injured, then paired again

Diedhiou and Weimann, Taylor, Djuric, Wells, Martin have all been partners over the 4 seasons he’s been here.

2 minutes ago, lenred said:

Still a massive risk for me at that money, injury considered. Not popular on here it seems as most seem keen to keep him but AWs stock seems to have gone up massively by way of being injured and away from the shit show of the last few months.  Nothing against him but I’d get rid personally. 

That’s why I said if we can see a true recovery from his ACL.

[LondonBristolian]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Say Weimann is on £15-18k per week and his year option is at that wage.

Assuming we can see true recovery from his ACL (he’s doing remarkably well), then I’d be looking at renegotiating a new deal, say something like a 2 year deal at £10-12k.

Re Walsh, again, little point offering him a year.  If you want him to stay, it’s got to be because you rate him, and therefore you offer at least 2 years, maybe 2+1 or 3.

But don’t re-contract anyone to be a club in the bag.  Only re-contract those you genuinely believe in.

I really want us to move away from clubs in the bag in general. I feel the most effective teams don't have "clubs in the bag". They have a system of playing and direct replacements that can slot seamlessly in if a player gets injured. Obviously there need to be a few options in the club for tweaks to the system, chasing a win or closing out a game but we need to get away from a situation where no two players play the same type of football so the team need to learn a whole new system as soon as a substitution gets made...

[steviestevieneville]

1 hour ago, awbb said:

Personally I think our midfield needs an overhaul as well. I like the players but not one of them has a natural game to screen our back line either as a destroyer or a quarterback. It’s a real problem not having anyone who can do that to a decent standard. Brunt and, I suspect, Lansbury were brought in to do that... eugh.

Don’t disagree & sums up in general our recruitment over the last couple of years which had led us to this point . Plus the appointment of the last two managers before NP. It’s all very passive 

[Superjack]

15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Which one and half seasons are you talking about?  We did t play one up front for a season and a half.  Johnson barely kept the sane system for one and a half games let alone seasons!!!

Diedhiou and Reid then injured, then paired again

Diedhiou and Weimann, Taylor, Djuric, Wells, Martin have all been partners over the 4 seasons he’s been here.

That’s why I said if we can see a true recovery from his ACL.

Johnson played one of front continuosly for an extended period. I know because I was tearing my ****ing hair out.

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Superjack said:

Johnson played one of front continuosly for an extended period. I know because I was tearing my ****ing hair out.

Can you tell me when please?

Last season when we won 4 on the trot just after Xmas?  Yep, and then not all of those games.  Never prolonged in any system.

[bpexile]

1 hour ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I genuinely don't understand why Fam has become the scapegoat for our poor season. 

I get he hasn't signed a new contract but I don't blame him he was bumped down to 3rd / 4th choice striker at the start of the season so obviously not in the managers plans, under those circumstances he might as well move on.

He's never been quick or brilliant on the ball but for the past few seasons has been our top scorer. People say yeh but what else does he do but a strikers primary role is to score and he does that more than any other striker at the club.

We will miss him and it will cost a lot to get a better striker. 

IMO that's even more reason to put in a real shift when given the chance, which again IMO he hasn't .

[1960maaan]

31 minutes ago, Superjack said:

I agree that he doesn't lend himself well to a pressing game. But the reason we dropped our high tempo pressing game that season is because we couldn't maintain it for a continuous period of time. Johnson then had no ideas. He only really stumbled on Reid upfront and the pressing game because he was forced into it with an injury situation.

Then again, maybe I just don't rate Johnson. Much like you don't rate Diedhiou.

As Rob K said Reid played upfront pre season. LJ may have stumbled across him as a striker, but whatever the reason was , he scored lots in the run up to the season. 

The reason we dropped our high tempo press is an interesting question. We didn't seem to build into to it, it did seem to just appear. When injuries limited Johnsons choice, Reid and Paterson ended up as striking options. The press, movement and interchange was great. Injuries did hit the team and rotation was a problem, but the press petered out with Fans return.  It wasn't only that, we did have a great movement in MF around that time, we moved the ball with pace and the midfield got past the "striker", even Pack did at times. We peaked around then, and to prove Johnson hadn't planned that we signed Kent who single handedly slowed our play in every move. 

I may be wrong, but I put that January as our peak. We played some great stuff and then shit recruitment and muddled management meant we gradually slipped to where we are now. No discernible style or pattern and lacking in movement and thought.

Pearson has a big job to change hearts and minds.

[Snufflelufagus]

The clubs in a bag analogy is a load of codswallop! In golf your only allowed 14 clubs in the bag. If Lee Johnson was a golfer his caddy would have needed to be Dwanye Johnson (the rock) to carry his multitude of clubs. In most cases he'd hit one shot with them then not use it again for 18holes.

[Superjack]

6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Can you tell me when please?

Last season when we won 4 on the trot just after Xmas?  Yep, and then not all of those games.  Never prolonged in any system.

Mostly 18/19 season I think. Usually disguised as a front two of Diedhiou and Weimann, a notion that was soon disabused on kick off with Weimann stuck out on the wing.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

As Rob K said Reid played upfront pre season. LJ may have stumbled across him as a striker, but whatever the reason was , he scored lots in the run up to the season. 

The reason we dropped our high tempo press is an interesting question. We didn't seem to build into to it, it did seem to just appear. When injuries limited Johnsons choice, Reid and Paterson ended up as striking options. The press, movement and interchange was great. Injuries did hit the team and rotation was a problem, but the press petered out with Fans return.  It wasn't only that, we did have a great movement in MF around that time, we moved the ball with pace and the midfield got past the "striker", even Pack did at times. We peaked around then, and to prove Johnson hadn't planned that we signed Kent who single handedly slowed our play in every move. 

I may be wrong, but I put that January as our peak. We played some great stuff and then shit recruitment and muddled management meant we gradually slipped to where we are now. No discernible style or pattern and lacking in movement and thought.

Pearson has a big job to change hearts and minds.

And yet we had a guy on the bench in Woodrow who’s proved at Barnsley he’s very effective at pressing.  In fact it was the torrid afternoon he gave Flint and Wright when on loan for Burton that cemented my view that he’d be a good signing for us ahead of that season.

It further backs up my view that the 4420 / 451 with Reid and Pato was a bit of a fluke.  One, because he didn’t play Woodrow when Pato was injured.  Two, because he brought Fam straight back in.  It wasn’t just that selection, but Kent for Bryan, Bryan for Magnússon, etc.  He completely broke up that team by February.

Crazy.

[kiwicolin]

Who's going to pay for it ???

Yes SL has money but he is also been affected by Covid19.  No money coming through the turnstiles or food/beer sales. It's a difficult time for all. They will have to see what contracts are up. 

[lenred]

33 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Which one and half seasons are you talking about?  We did t play one up front for a season and a half.  Johnson barely kept the sane system for one and a half games let alone seasons!!!

Diedhiou and Reid then injured, then paired again

Diedhiou and Weimann, Taylor, Djuric, Wells, Martin have all been partners over the 4 seasons he’s been here.

That’s why I said if we can see a true recovery from his ACL.

For £10 to 12k a week I’d be saying thank you for your service but we’re moving on. Suspect NP will be doing just that as well if he is still here come the summer. 

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, lenred said:

For £10 to 12k a week I’d be saying thank you for your service but we’re moving on. Suspect NP will be doing just that as well if he is still here come the summer. 

Hey, that’s fair enough.

Dont get me wrong if there was a youngster who you could bring in a lot cheaper, I would agree.  I keep using Jephcott as an example, even though I need to really spend some time watching his all-round game rather than his goals!  But you could get him for a fraction of Weimann’s wages and a sensible fee, on a 4 year deal and have years of use, future value.

[Maltshoveller]

4 hours ago, Sixtyseconds said:

Famara.

Big players dont go missing.

Did you watch Bruno Fernandes Marcus Rashford and a few other Man Utd players midweek v Palace

That will tell you they do

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, Superjack said:

I'm sorry, but that is just plain wrong. Johnson had him one up front for at least a season and a half.

With respect taking your at least a season and a half as correct that still leaves a LOT of games where the player was not played up top on his own. Diedhiou playing with multiple partners is plain right. 

 

[Davefevs]

@JonDolman the Forest and Boro home games you mention above were my favourite games (bar the Utd game) in that 2-3 months spell.

They weren’t brilliant performances of skill and creativity.  They were hardworking, attritional, everything with a purpose, to a plan....defending as a tight team, attacking as a tight team....suffocating the opposition, grinding them down, not letting them “get out”.

I can’t think of performances like those since, not for whole 90s.

Those two games were my reference point for everything that happened afterwards under LJ.  The fact that he didn’t try to recreate it pisses me off.  He said you could play like that all season, so abandoned it.  When imho what he needed was 1 or 2 players, another midfielder to give Pack and Smith a rest and possibly a wide midfielder to allow Brownhill and Bryan to cover elsewhere.

I know he lost 3 in the summer, but that was his peak.  He couldn’t recreate it.

[2015]

Jack Hunt was no better than Eros Pisano at RB and imo worse. He has zero pace, he isn't blessed with great passing and is average at defending. I am sick and tired of the lack of guile along that right flank of ours and lack of speed he possesses that all modern day RB require.

Fam Diedhiou. This guy is a conundrum. Yes, he has scored a few goals for us. Yes I know a lot of our fans love him. But we can get far better out there and could have for the money. Zero effort, no pressing, gives no real impact on matches that you expect from a striker. Defending from the front is non existent with him up there and it sets a precedent for the rest of the team. As Nigel said today - Passive.

These two have to go and be replaced for upgrades, in my opinion anyway. 

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, 2015 said:

Jack Hunt was no better than Eros Pisano at RB and imo worse. He has zero pace, he isn't blessed with great passing and is average at defending. I am sick and tired of the lack of guile along that right flank of ours and lack of speed he possesses that all modern day RB require.

Fam Diedhiou. This guy is a conundrum. Yes, he has scored a few goals for us. Yes I know a lot of our fans love him. But we can get far better out there and could have for the money. Zero effort, no pressing, gives no real impact on matches that you expect from a striker. Defending from the front is non existent with him up there and it sets a precedent for the rest of the team. As Nigel said today - Passive.

These two have to go and be replaced for upgrades, in my opinion anyway. 

When Hunt signed I thought we’d made a good signing.  I think he’s been average overall.  I’m not sure he’s ever had a regular starter in front of him that has paired well with him.  Weimann probably played more than anyone at RW over the best part of 3 seasons in front of Hunt, yet I don’t think that was a match made in heaven.  Watkins imho was the best RW for Hunt.

Today I thought Semenyo was a passenger until he swapped onto the left for the final 20.  Hunt had a poor game today.  But he has had to play a lot of minutes this season.  I’m probably reaching a conclusion that I wouldn’t re-contract.

If Pearson can sort the midfield, Zak and a new RB should be our two next season.

Fam - my views are clear.

[Fuber]

For me:

Weimann, Lansbury, Paterson, Hunt, Fam, Walsh, Baker, Mariappa, Watkins, Adelakun. Possibly Moore. Plus, the entire finess and medical team.

Possibly may have to sell Bents for some maneuvering in the market.

A unit of a CB whose decent with his feet is a must to take pressure off Kalas - I'd see if we couldn't give Leicester a ring and get Benkovic.

[CHIPLEY RED]

11 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

He is just not quite good enough.

I get the feeling that he is not functioning at  the height of his capacity like many players at the club .He is not consistent enough to move the club up the division.

I wouldn’t offer him a contract on better terms. I think we can do better. 
 

 

I actually agree that Fam is not the striker to fire us into the Prem, he is inconsistent (sometimes looks like he's never played before then scores something brilliant).

I thought Wells was better but I've yet to be convinced, someone better will cost £10m+ which is probably all of NP's budget.

As I said I don't get why he seems to be the scapegoat this season - he was no different last season and everybody wanted him to sign a new contract at the beginning of the season - what's changed?

[1960maaan]

7 hours ago, JonDolman said:

So it's interesting that people including myself in the past have thought of it as an amazing spell for us. When really it was only a handful of games  that the Pato - Reid parternship worked and looked really good.

My point, sort of. It wasn't a plan, it just happened. Short spell where circumstances brought players together, rather than the manager. At one stage make runs past the forwards , who could drop in and spot runs. That was pure chance and something that LJ didn't even seem to realise he had.

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Those two games were my reference point for everything that happened afterwards under LJ.  The fact that he didn’t try to recreate it pisses me off.  He said you could play like that all season, so abandoned it.  When imho what he needed was 1 or 2 players, another midfielder to give Pack and Smith a rest and possibly a wide midfielder to allow Brownhill and Bryan to cover elsewhere.

More ammo to the theory he never planned for a shape or style. In fact , he actively seemed to go away from the short, quick pass and move style by playing Fam & Duric, and Kent come to that. 

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Watkins imho was the best RW for Hunt.

Again you have to question recruitment. I was less than impressed when he came, but he seemed to have a back of scoring. The injury stopped him in his tracks, but he came back , disappeared, came back looked good disappeared, there was no plan that you could see. Half the time , if he didn't start he wasn't even on the bench. I think he would have been a very handy player to have around this season. The games he dropped him in for , Cardiff & Barnsley, I thought he was outstanding.
It did feel like Johnson was playing FM , collecting players he liked and a shape was secondary. TBF he was right, you can't play that way all the time, not if you don't recruit for it, and he didn't

I still say, however short a time, however we got there, it was the best football I've seen from a City side. Reid was perfect in that mobile striking role, I think because he had played in MF he could stop runs and space. He and Pato interchanged brilliantly, but it wasn't just those two. At times even Pack broke through and was furthest forward. Shame LJ didn't spot that and run with it.

[mozo]

32 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

My point, sort of. It wasn't a plan, it just happened. Short spell where circumstances brought players together, rather than the manager. At one stage make runs past the forwards , who could drop in and spot runs. That was pure chance and something that LJ didn't even seem to realise he had.

More ammo to the theory he never planned for a shape or style. In fact , he actively seemed to go away from the short, quick pass and move style by playing Fam & Duric, and Kent come to that. 

Again you have to question recruitment. I was less than impressed when he came, but he seemed to have a back of scoring. The injury stopped him in his tracks, but he came back , disappeared, came back looked good disappeared, there was no plan that you could see. Half the time , if he didn't start he wasn't even on the bench. I think he would have been a very handy player to have around this season. The games he dropped him in for , Cardiff & Barnsley, I thought he was outstanding.
It did feel like Johnson was playing FM , collecting players he liked and a shape was secondary. TBF he was right, you can't play that way all the time, not if you don't recruit for it, and he didn't

I still say, however short a time, however we got there, it was the best football I've seen from a City side. Reid was perfect in that mobile striking role, I think because he had played in MF he could stop runs and space. He and Pato interchanged brilliantly, but it wasn't just those two. At times even Pack broke through and was furthest forward. Shame LJ didn't spot that and run with it.

Necessity is the mother of invention

[Edgy Red]

5 hours ago, Fuber said:

For me:

Weimann, Lansbury, Paterson, Hunt, Fam, Walsh, Baker, Mariappa, Watkins, Adelakun. Possibly Moore. Plus, the entire finess and medical team.

Possibly may have to sell Bents for some maneuvering in the market.

A unit of a CB whose decent with his feet is a must to take pressure off Kalas - I'd see if we couldn't give Leicester a ring and get Benkovic.

I think this sums up my views exactly. I would have a big clear out and let Nige bring in 5 or 6 of his own players. We need some more physicality in the team and at least one dominant first ball centre back is a must.

I take my mum to one or two games a season (she's a bag of nerves and struggles to watch throw ins!) and everytime the teams stand together pre match, she comments "aren't they a lot bigger than us"

It may sound obvious but again our general recruitment over the past 4 years has been questionable. There was a time when i thought we were only allowed to sign midfielders that were 5ft 10" or under!