Who needs shipping out in the summer?

[1960maaan]

13 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

He just never really could work out one way of playing. The 352 with Palmer, Weimann and Afobe was looking good. But who knows how long that would have lasted. Many of us assume it would have worked all season, but who knows. 

That is key, and I've said before, the thing that started to change my mind about him was he was keen to learn. The thing that also ruined his time here he couldn't filter the things he learned into a coherent, focused plan.

[Red Exile]

11 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

As Rob K said Reid played upfront pre season. LJ may have stumbled across him as a striker, but whatever the reason was , he scored lots in the run up to the season. 

The reason we dropped our high tempo press is an interesting question. We didn't seem to build into to it, it did seem to just appear. When injuries limited Johnsons choice, Reid and Paterson ended up as striking options. The press, movement and interchange was great. Injuries did hit the team and rotation was a problem, but the press petered out with Fans return.  It wasn't only that, we did have a great movement in MF around that time, we moved the ball with pace and the midfield got past the "striker", even Pack did at times. We peaked around then, and to prove Johnson hadn't planned that we signed Kent who single handedly slowed our play in every move. 

I may be wrong, but I put that January as our peak. We played some great stuff and then shit recruitment and muddled management meant we gradually slipped to where we are now. No discernible style or pattern and lacking in movement and thought.

Pearson has a big job to change hearts and minds.

100% this! And let's not forget that 'that January' was 3 years ago. LJ was demonstrating that he didn't understand how to recreate what he'd stumbled upon by the end of that season. A more ruthless club would have shown him the door at that point. 

[Sleepy1968]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

When Hunt signed I thought we’d made a good signing.  I think he’s been average overall.  I’m not sure he’s ever had a regular starter in front of him that has paired well with him.  Weimann probably played more than anyone at RW over the best part of 3 seasons in front of Hunt, yet I don’t think that was a match made in heaven.  Watkins imho was the best RW for Hunt.

He's also a vindictive barsteward. Not a hard man, just nasty. If he was good at his job I might have overlooked it.

The one thing I'm praying for is that if NP takes a contract he is soley in control of who is offered deals. That would at least give mr some confidence that we would try to recruit a better player rather than take the easy way out and offer Hunt him a new deal. I'd get Eros Pissano back if it were possible.

[Bazooka Joe]

Save a place on the SS Getouttahere for Mr Ashton.

[1960maaan]

15 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

100% this! And let's not forget that 'that January' was 3 years ago. LJ was demonstrating that he didn't understand how to recreate what he'd stumbled upon by the end of that season. A more ruthless club would have shown him the door at that point. 

Johnson was given way, way too long to prove he wasn't up to it.

[WOODSY1111]

If we have a genuine issue with the medical team then that should be priority but if not then every player that’s been out all season/majority of the season should be leaving. We are going to need to be clever with our wages and unable to carry personnel, that would mean Walsh, Baker, Dasilva, O’Dowda and any others that come under the same section. OOC players can go too, we have to be ruthless as there are going to be many options available end of season even players on frees due to other clubs having to free up wages. Pearson will then have the space and money available to build his squad and as he’s stated he’ll be happy to use young players. We have too many lazy, uncaring of BCFC players at the club.

[GrahamC]

19 minutes ago, Sleepy1968 said:

He's also a vindictive barsteward. Not a hard man, just nasty. If he was good at his job I might have overlooked it.

The one thing I'm praying for is that if NP takes a contract he is soley in control of who is offered deals. That would at least give mr some confidence that we would try to recruit a better player rather than take the easy way out and offer Hunt him a new deal. I'd get Eros Pissano back if it were possible.

Pisano? 
You can’t be serious!

He was injured more often than he was fit when with us, he started just 24 league games (7 more as sub) in 2 seasons.

He’s 33 now & after struggling to find a new club for over 6 months, is now a squad player down in Serie B.

Hunt has been a 6/10 signing but his availability record (100th league game for us in midweek, all bar 9 as a starter) pisses all over Pisano’s.

On balance I would probably let Hunt go this summer but we have no young RB coming through (Opi Edwards? no chance) so unless we are planning on bringing in 2, would have to use Vyner and/or Mariappa (if he stays) as cover there.

[Zed@BCFC]

16 hours ago, Sir Geoff said:

Might be easier to ask who you would keep ?

The situation with no fans is beginning to really scream.  There is no way we would have lost 5 (at home) in a row if we had been there.  I've come to realize how powerful we are, do you think some of the players (who aren't at it) would be in the team?   We would have been a factor in deciding who goes and we would have voiced our observations on the day.  That said we would have also lifted the team and praised those worthy of it.

[Midred]

1 hour ago, mozo said:

Necessity is the mother of invention

Many times a key player has been injured/banned for several matches and by accident you find a plan B. Unfortunately when the "key" player is available again they're shoehorned back into the team,  dropping players that have worked well together and that temporary team cohesion is lost.

A few seasons ago Fam was out for several matches at the start and Weimann was scoring for fun. Fam come back in , the systems changed to accommodate him and it took several weeks to get going again.

[Ostrich]

35 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Benkovic a weird one, can't get a game at Nigel Pearson's former club in Holland. Thought he looked very promising for us but doesn't seem to have impressed Cardiff or OH Leuven.

Benkovic has been a strange one all along. He came in 2018 and went straight on loan to Celtic, got rave reviews up there, being compared to Van Dijk, Brendan saying he was good enough for PL, Croatia call ups etc but he did seem to be made of glass. Start of last season it wasn’t clear whether it would be him or Soyuncu to replace Maguire but Benkovic was injured at the start of the season anyway. Took him ages to get fit, played one cup game and then came to you lot on loan and I believe he did pretty well. Pre-season, or what there was of it, he played a couple of games but got injured again and Brendan is saying he isn’t ready for the  Premier League now. Turns up at Cardiff seemingly unfit, is straight into their U23s and then can’t get a game at all. Now shipped off to Leuven and can’t get a game, despite them playing 3 at the back often.

Injuries really haven’t helped him and I just wonder if a proper pre-season is what he needs and then a run of games. I think there’ll be a lot of head scratching in the summer to work out what to do with him.

I think the other CB that we’ve got that is up to Championship level is Josh Knight. Out of contract in the summer, don’t expect there’ll be another one and has had very good reviews from Peterborough last season and Wycombe this year. Plays either CB, RB or as a defensive midfielder. He’s one of many that we’ve probably held back so it’d good to see him get somewhere in the Championship where he can settle, there’s already been interest from Sheffield United.

In midfield, Matty James is out of contract in the summer. Not sure how he’s been doing at Cov but Barnsley fans love him. He’s been ravaged by injury so mobility will stop him playing PL football but every manager we’ve had has rated him. If he hadn’t got injured during the great escape, he’d have been playing next to Kante instead of Drinkwater, he was always ahead of Drinkwater even in the Man Utd academy. Top player and judging by Barnsley fans, injury isn’t hampering his ability to play in the Champ and he seems to be staying fit. He will be 30 in the summer though so not a long-term option.

[JoeAman08]

16 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

Personally I think we need a quality central midfielder. A leader.

I agree but I am hopeful we have someone who can take that role already at the club. Think Vyner or Williams are the most likely candidates. We have a lot of good solid players in there and they are all young. Someone needs to step up. 

[Davefevs]

2 hours ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I actually agree that Fam is not the striker to fire us into the Prem, he is inconsistent (sometimes looks like he's never played before then scores something brilliant).

I thought Wells was better but I've yet to be convinced, someone better will cost £10m+ which is probably all of NP's budget.

As I said I don't get why he seems to be the scapegoat this season - he was no different last season and everybody wanted him to sign a new contract at the beginning of the season - what's changed?

It’s not just this season for me.  And I don’t think you need to spend £10m to get someone better.  I think you could get a better fit for the team for a fraction of that.  Ashley Fletcher would be a better fit for our team, he’s available for free.  The market is bust below the Prem. 28g / 11a in the equivalent of 70 games, is pretty decent.  Don’t get me wrong, concerns over injury history, but he’s a mobile big lad, who has far more football intelligence than Fam.

Fam is gonna cost us £4.5m (£30k pw) over 3 years.  You can spend that in different ways.  If you get someone younger in, small fee, much smaller wages, you won’t spend the same amount, and you’d have value in the future too.

2 hours ago, JonDolman said:

Yeah Middlesbrough was a great performance. LJ could have used that 442 as a template of how he wanted to move forward the next season but chose not to. I don't think it worked for many games though. Some really bad performances as well as good ones.

We did actually go very direct with Reid and Pato up top. It seemed to be about winning 2nd balls or forcing a throw in opposition territory before then playing our quick passing football. It briefly looked good before we lost a few and were looking really poor.

Probably the most successful team LJ put together imo was the 18/19 side that went on an amazing run. 4141 with Fam up top.

He just never really could work out one way of playing. The 352 with Palmer, Weimann and Afobe was looking good. But who knows how long that would have lasted. Many of us assume it would have worked all season, but who knows. 

Obviously it all changed when Afobe got the bad injury. We had a system there where if the main player in that system Afobe gets injured then it won't work. Not very well planned. You don't have Swansea manager thinking oh no if Ayew gets injured then we will have to completely change how we play.

which proves to me LJ didn’t really understand why some of his teams worked and why they didn’t.  Football Manager personified!

[Phileas Fogg]

It's probably easier to look at who we should definitely keep. If we were having a 'football manager' style clear out this is what I'd want..

 I think (if we can) it's worth definitely keeping: Bentley, Kalas, Dasilva, Nagy, Massengo, Semenyo, Williams, Bakinson

A few we probably could get more out of and/or could be useful: Wells, Palmer, Vyner, Weimann, Moore, Walsh, Baker

A few I think we should get rid of: Diedhiou* (only because of contract situation), Lansbury, Martin, Mariappa, Paterson, O'Dowda, Rowe, Hunt.

Didn't include the likes of Bell, Towler, Pearson, Edwards etc as they'll almost certainly still be around regardless and a bit too early to judge for certain. 

There's a few in my 'get rid of' section that might seem harsh, but if we were able to I think that's the sort of churn we need to evolve the squad. I think it's possible he may want to keep Martin, Mariappa, Paterson, O'Dowda and Hunt. All have experience and play in useful positions. 

[LondonBristolian]

1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's probably easier to look at who we should definitely keep. If we were having a 'football manager' style clear out this is what I'd want..

 I think (if we can) it's worth definitely keeping: Bentley, Kalas, Dasilva, Nagy, Massengo, Semenyo, Williams, Bakinson

A few we probably could get more out of and/or could be useful: Wells, Palmer, Vyner, Weimann, Moore, Walsh, Baker

A few I think we should get rid of: Diedhiou* (only because of contract situation), Lansbury, Martin, Mariappa, Paterson, O'Dowda, Rowe, Hunt.

Didn't include the likes of Bell, Towler, Pearson, Edwards etc as they'll almost certainly still be around regardless and a bit too early to judge for certain. 

There's a few in my 'get rid of' section that might seem harsh, but if we were able to I think that's the sort of churn we need to evolve the squad. I think it's possible he may want to keep Martin, Mariappa, Paterson, O'Dowda and Hunt. All have experience and play in useful positions. 

I think a huge test is who is going to put the work in. Vyner has really shown this season he wants to work at being a better player and Palmer's work ethic has noticeably improved in recent matches. The work ethic is less the issue with Moore. He works hard but needs to lose lapses of concentration.

Paterson and O'Dowda are the big two for me. Both of them are very capable footballers but I feel both have got away with not working week in and week out under the previous two managers. I think both have a future here under Pearson if they want it but it comes down to whether they are willing to do the necessary to maintain high standards. 

[mozo]

23 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think a huge test is who is going to put the work in. Vyner has really shown this season he wants to work at being a better player and Palmer's work ethic has noticeably improved in recent matches. The work ethic is less the issue with Moore. He works hard but needs to lose lapses of concentration.

Paterson and O'Dowda are the big two for me. Both of them are very capable footballers but I feel both have got away with not working week in and week out under the previous two managers. I think both have a future here under Pearson if they want it but it comes down to whether they are willing to do the necessary to maintain high standards. 

Well Paterson has been identified time and again as a player who performs at his best when he 'has something to prove'. Maybe he needs an environment in which he is expected to prove himself every week.

[joshbristol]

To many players who are just ok we need to freshen up and bring in some real championship quality players 

Players who should be sold/released.

hunt 

O’Dowda 

nagy 

moore 

rowe 

Paterson 

watkins 

Martin 

marriappa 

baker 

adelakun

 

 

massengo season long loan for experience 

[Loderingo]

For me it has to be the maximum possible clear out.

One thing I haven't seen  mentioned is the impact of COVID on wages.

According to this article, the average Championship footballers wage has increased from 3k a week in 2006 to 29k week now.  So bang average footballers in this league get 1.5 million a year!

https://www.888sport.com/blog/football/championship/how-much-do-championship-football-players-get-paid

COVID should be a massive wake up call for everyone in the pyramid except maybe the top 6.

I would expect many clubs to have lots of players out of contract this summer as this is a good way of having a back door wage cut.  I would also expect squad sizes to get smaller.  This means by having a clear out we can potentially get a higher standard of player (Prem squad players) for less money.

 

[Davefevs]

Just now, Loderingo said:

For me it has to be the maximum possible clear out.

One thing I haven't seen  mentioned is the impact of COVID on wages.

According to this article, the average Championship footballers wage has increased from 3k a week in 2006 to 29k week now.  So bang average footballers in this league get 1.5 million a year!

https://www.888sport.com/blog/football/championship/how-much-do-championship-football-players-get-paid

COVID should be a massive wake up call for everyone in the pyramid except maybe the top 6.

I would expect many clubs to have lots of players out of contract this summer as this is a good way of having a back door wage cut.  I would also expect squad sizes to get smaller.  This means by having a clear out we can potentially get a higher standard of player (Prem squad players) for less money.

 

The average champ wage was £720k p.a. (Circa £14k p.w.) last season.  This was what the wage cap proposal was going to based on.  Not sure how 888 sport arrived at £29k p.w.?

[Sleepy1968]

3 hours ago, GrahamC said:

Pisano? 
You can’t be serious!

He was injured more often than he was fit when with us, he started just 24 league games (7 more as sub) in 2 seasons.

He’s 33 now & after struggling to find a new club for over 6 months, is now a squad player down in Serie B.

Hunt has been a 6/10 signing but his availability record (100th league game for us in midweek, all bar 9 as a starter) pisses all over Pisano’s.

On balance I would probably let Hunt go this summer but we have no young RB coming through (Opi Edwards? no chance) so unless we are planning on bringing in 2, would have to use Vyner and/or Mariappa (if he stays) as cover there.

Sorry. Brain not working properly - I meant Pedro Pereira I think - the one that was here 2019-20 season. All these names merge together at my age.

[brad blit]

I still can’t fathom out the hatred (perhaps too strong a word) against COD - ok he’s not necessarily an automatic starter, but he’s certainly worth a squad place. He’s one of the few players in our squad with the pace and dribbling ability to pass a player, is a hard worker, a good technical player,  and someone with a good amount of experience at this level whilst being relatively young too. He shown couple times once given some regular game time he can be a good player for us 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Sleepy1968 said:

Sorry. Brain not working properly - I meant Pedro Pereira I think - the one that was here 2019-20 season. All these names merge together at my age.

That makes more sense

[REDOXO]

Without reading anything on the thread I will throw my tuppence in to the original question

The out of contract players almost All of them. You can make a case for Walsh being offered something and the club will extend Weimanns contract but I see little or no value in any of them except Tommy Rowe as a player who can fit in almost anywhere. As much as some love FD, he could not trap a bag of cement and it seems to me he has made up his mind.

Of the players who have contracts who of them has value? Bentley, Vyner and maybe Adam Nagy. The last one has the Euros as a shop window, so if he does well then someone will look at him. Vyner has obvious potential to take a step up as a utility player. Bentley has done himself no favors this week, but he’s as good as anything in the bottom half of the Prem at a minimum.

The question is of our u23s etc who will Pearson fancy can make a step up and who will he want. One thing about Pearson is he sees potential and quality easily and has a plan about how he will play. So we will see I guess.

The biggest issue is the ballooning size of our squad of mediocrity put lovingly together by LJ JL and Ashton  A veritable conveyor belt of kids who have nowhere to go!

 

[Bazooka Joe]

Lansbury for sure: "Return to sender - Faulty - not fit for purpose. Misrepresentation Act 1967"

 

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, Sleepy1968 said:

Sorry. Brain not working properly - I meant Pedro Pereira I think - the one that was here 2019-20 season. All these names merge together at my age.

That is a far better shout.

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The average champ wage was £720k p.a. (Circa £14k p.w.) last season.  This was what the wage cap proposal was going to based on.  Not sure how 888 sport arrived at £29k p.w.?

Andre Ayew bumps it up on his own.

Boro fans reckon Assombalonga is on around £40k, too.

[Prinny]

What's the currently contracted squad for next season?

GK Bentley, O'Leary

DF Kalas, Vyner, Moore, Dasilva, Pring

MF Williams, Massengo, Bakinson, Palmer, Nagy, O'Dowda, Semenyo (not a striker they score goals...)

ST Wells, Martin

That's 16. So nobody needs to be shipped out, we don't have enough players as it stands.

The closest to being needed to be shipped out is actually Massengo, because he's bottom of the list in a position (central midfield not just midfield) that is both the most full, and is still weak IMO. So if he's last beneath all the others and even Vyner, that probably means he needs to go. Or if you believe in Massengo and or Bakinson, you want to ship out Nagy, because he becomes a progress blocker. Pearson talks about developing players throughout their career, fine. Palmer, 24, O'Dowda and Nagy 25, they have good attributes, develop them.

Bringing in talent is much more important than shipping them out. We don't have enough of it. That includes who you choose to bring back of the impending out of contract players.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

Andre Ayew bumps it up on his own.

Boro fans reckon Assombalonga is on around £40k, too.

Yeah, but it’s an average for the division....it therefore includes Ayew’s £80-90k per week.

[Davefevs]

My squad to take into pre-season (ages at 30.06 / contract end), based on who I think might react well to Pearson over the coming weeks and those who won’t.  Also assumes fitness for some.  It is a starting point, and availability of players elsewhere might see one in one out.

GKs: (2)

Bentley (27 / 2023): first choice, will probably attract interest, but NP to convince him to play a part in a new City

O’Leary (24 / 2023): able deputy

RBs: (1)

Vyner (24 / 2023): versatile, but until we know who else may come in, then RB.

LBs: (2)

Dasilva (23 / 2023): get him fit, 1st choice, important to possession based style

Pring (23 / 2023): back up, although possibility of the right LB is available that you might move him on.  But not a priority area due to other LBs in u23s.

CBs: (4)

Kalas (28 / 2023): 1st choice CB

Baker (30 / 2 year deal): assuming fit by end of season, offer two year deal on reduced wages

Moore (24 / 2023): if you can bring in the right CB, look to move on

Cundy (24 / option): take option and use pre-season to assess future

Midfielders: (6)

Williams (24 / 2024): gonna be a key player

Bakinson (22 / 2022): think NP will change his mindset.  Extend contract too, only a year left

O’Dowda (26 / 2022): think he will respond to NP. Extend contract too (you may be surprised by me saying this, but I think he has ability!)

Walsh (23 / 3 year deal): same as two above

Palmer (24 / 2023): we are starting to see what he can bring, let Paterson go

Massengo (19 / 2023): use in more attacking roles.

Forwards: (4)

Wells (31 / 2023): gonna be first choice

Weimann (29 / 2 year deal): versatile, energetic, what NP likes

Martin (32 / 2022): use more sensibly, to rotate others

Semenyo (21 / 2023): make him better!

Areas to recruit:

Right Back

Centre Back

Midfield (can play inside or outside)

Striker (succession planning)

u23: loans for some / most

Nurse (22 / 2023)

Towler (19 / extend this summer)

Morton (22 / 2023)

Z.Smith (20 / extend)

Bell (19 / extend)

Pearson (19 / extend)

Ow.Edwards (20 / 2022)

Op.Edwards (22 / option)

Scott (18 / tbc long term)

Janneh (21 / 2023)

Conway (18 / extend)

Look to Sell:

Nagy (26 / 2022): use Euros as shop window, recoup as much as you can

Let go:

Gilmartin (34 - OOC): coaching contract

Wollacott (24 - OOC): don’t take option

Hunt (30 - OOC)

Webb (20 - OOC):

Rowe (32 - OOC): with a heavy heart

Mariappa (34 - OOC)

Adelakun (24 - OOC): don’t take option

Watkins (30 - OOC)

Lansbury (30 - OOC)

Paterson (29 - OOC)

Hinds (22 - OOC): don’t take option

Diedhiou (28 - OOC)

other considerations:

Assess strength of u23 keepers, Robertson and Wiles-Richards as keeper cover

 

[downendcity]

Might be able to pick up a   few deals from Anfield in the summer following their 6th successive home defeat

I wonder if their fans forum has a similar thread to this? 

[HappyClapper]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

My squad to take into pre-season (ages at 30.06 / contract end), based on who I think might react well to Pearson over the coming weeks and those who won’t.  Also assumes fitness for some.  It is a starting point, and availability of players elsewhere might see one in one out.

GKs: (2)

Bentley (27 / 2023): first choice, will probably attract interest, but NP to convince him to play a part in a new City

O’Leary (24 / 2023): able deputy

RBs: (1)

Vyner (24 / 2023): versatile, but until we know who else may come in, then RB.

LBs: (2)

Dasilva (23 / 2023): get him fit, 1st choice, important to possession based style

Pring (23 / 2023): back up, although possibility of the right LB is available that you might move him on.  But not a priority area due to other LBs in u23s.

CBs: (4)

Kalas (28 / 2023): 1st choice CB

Baker (30 / 2 year deal): assuming fit by end of season, offer two year deal on reduced wages

Moore (24 / 2023): if you can bring in the right CB, look to move on

Cundy (24 / option): take option and use pre-season to assess future

Midfielders: (6)

Williams (24 / 2024): gonna be a key player

Bakinson (22 / 2022): think NP will change his mindset.  Extend contract too, only a year left

O’Dowda (26 / 2022): think he will respond to NP. Extend contract too (you may be surprised by me saying this, but I think he has ability!)

Walsh (23 / 3 year deal): same as two above

Palmer (24 / 2023): we are starting to see what he can bring, let Paterson go

Massengo (19 / 2023): use in more attacking roles.

Forwards: (4)

Wells (31 / 2023): gonna be first choice

Weimann (29 / 2 year deal): versatile, energetic, what NP likes

Martin (32 / 2022): use more sensibly, to rotate others

Semenyo (21 / 2023): make him better!

Areas to recruit:

Right Back

Centre Back

Midfield (can play inside or outside)

Striker (succession planning)

u23: loans for some / most

Nurse (22 / 2023)

Towler (19 / extend this summer)

Morton (22 / 2023)

Z.Smith (20 / extend)

Bell (19 / extend)

Pearson (19 / extend)

Ow.Edwards (20 / 2022)

Op.Edwards (22 / option)

Scott (18 / tbc long term)

Janneh (21 / 2023)

Conway (18 / extend)

Look to Sell:

Nagy (26 / 2022): use Euros as shop window, recoup as much as you can

Let go:

Gilmartin (34 - OOC): coaching contract

Wollacott (24 - OOC): don’t take option

Hunt (30 - OOC)

Webb (20 - OOC):

Rowe (32 - OOC): with a heavy heart

Mariappa (34 - OOC)

Adelakun (24 - OOC): don’t take option

Watkins (30 - OOC)

Lansbury (30 - OOC)

Paterson (29 - OOC)

Hinds (22 - OOC): don’t take option

Diedhiou (28 - OOC)

other considerations:

Assess strength of u23 keepers, Robertson and Wiles-Richards as keeper cover

 

No objections to that Dave. What is apparent is that we have a ridiculously bloated squad. Didn’t LJ / MA know that you are only allowed 14 clubs in the bag for golf??

A net of 9 out leaves a squad of 24 with considerable savings on wages. Also SL has indicated there is some financial headroom. If we can get additions of the right quality, but probably more importantly the right mindset, we will have more ups than downs next season. As others have said, I would be surprised is NP isn’t here to oversee this process. If he is not then someone has f****d up massively.