The Massengo Conundrum

[And Its Smith]

9 minutes ago, Nongazeuse said:

A bit harsh but generally I agree.  He can tackle but has annoying habit of winning the ball and then giving it away immediately.

Given his age it will be interesting to see if Pearson rates him as anything more than a fringe player.

Disappointing really as I thought he would much better by now.

By now?  What,  19 years old??!!  

 

[Nongazeuse]

3 minutes ago, And Its Smith said:

By now?  What,  19 years old??!!  

 

20 in July so nearly two years in the team and he doesn't seem to have made much progress.  I would still keep him but I can't see Chelsea or anyone else putting in a decent bid over the summer based on current performances.

[And Its Smith]

1 minute ago, Nongazeuse said:

20 in July so nearly two years in the team and he doesn't seem to have made much progress.  I would still keep him but I can't see Chelsea or anyone else putting in a decent bid over the summer based on current performances.

20...he will be drawing his pension soon.

I would persevere with a 19 year old player even if Chelsea didn’t want him but that’s just me 

[Davefevs]

What about his performance v Brentford....did that not highlight his ability (even if sporadic)?

[KegCity]

37 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

My own thought is that Massengo is simply not very good at anything much  

He is pace-less our counter attacks wlll stop if he gets the ball because he can’t go past anyone

hHe plays sideways and particularly backwards on most occasions as he has neither the guile strength and pace to attack and his passing is no better than average when looking up and going forward

He has nothing around the area. He can not shoot or head and has not even come close to adding to his goal tally  which correct me if I’m wrong zero

He has no defensive qualities and is a pointless waste of time when defending. He is poor at tracking players usually looses his man and rarely blocks a cross  

Massengo has a little bit at his feet but is playing way past the level he should be at, at his age, and reminds me of a poor show pony with no rosette  

I’m sorry if I upset people but there it is. Pearson won’t start a player who can’t battle, expect an exit! It was a terrible Miss guided buy in the comparison with Engval Lansbury Tomlin etc  

Very Poor mans LJ I reckon

Think that's a harsh assessment, he's got excellent technique which is obvious every time he passes the ball. His movement is also intelligent, he made two great runs against Cardiff for example where if he'd been given the ball would've been one on one with the keeper. One of his first games against QPR on flag day, made a fantastic run and missed out on a diving header by inches.

You're right, he's not a defensive midfielder and he's not a tricky winger that'll beat men either. Fortunately those aren't the only two positions on the football pitch so he may have a career yet! I also think the "can't battle" comment in inaccurate. He gets lumps kicked out of him most weeks and continues to get better at shielding off opponents and releasing the football. His first few games showcased exactly what he can do, just a case of consistently doing it, which surely can only come from regular minutes?

It's a game of opinions and I'm very much in the Massengo fan club, but I don't see where some of the criticisms for him have come from. Semenyo, who's 18 months older than him, has played nearly every game for city this season and has scored 1 goal in the league. He's currently got no composure in front of goal, yet he's not considered a write off by many fans? (Quite rightly too, he's another young player who is unsurprisingly not the finished article as he's still a kid). Only time will tell, HNM might head off to Dortmund, he might head off to Daghenham and Redbridge, but it seems very premature to suggest that he essentially can't do anything on the football pitch when time and again he has showed real promise.

Anyway, that's my defence of HNM over. I do see why some people are disappointed considering his transfer fee, but I do think that if he'd come through our academy there would be as much hype around him as any other 19 year old at the club.

[M.D]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

What about his performance v Brentford....did that not highlight his ability (even if sporadic)?

I thought he was very good in patches of that game, played more centrally and in a slightly more advanced roll, more his position IMHO

[KegCity]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What about his performance v Brentford....did that not highlight his ability (even if sporadic)?

 

Just now, M.D said:

I thought he was very good in patches of that game, played more centrally and in a slightly more advanced roll, more his position IMHO

Yep, played in his position and looked tidy against one of the best teams in the league. Wish we could see more of it.

[Davefevs]

Just now, M.D said:

I thought he was very good in patches of that game, played more centrally and in a slightly more advanced roll, more his position IMHO

Still think that LJ saw this bright, young French talent and with the benefit of his experience thought “I can coach him to be like me”.  And I’m not joking either,

[M.D]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Still think that LJ saw this bright, young French talent and with the benefit of his experience thought “I can coach him to be like me”.  And I’m not joking either,

And now we have to coach that out of him

[And Its Smith]

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

What about his performance v Brentford....did that not highlight his ability (even if sporadic)?

Dave you are supposed to ignore his good performances!  

[DaveF]

30 minutes ago, Nongazeuse said:

20 in July so nearly two years in the team and he doesn't seem to have made much progress.  I would still keep him but I can't see Chelsea or anyone else putting in a decent bid over the summer based on current performances.

The whole team has been mostly awful the last two years mind!

[Gazred]

I'd like to see him involved a bit further up the pitch. He's definitely got skill on the ball and is quite sharp with his short, give and go passing.

A goal would do him the world of good.

[Red7]

13 minutes ago, Gazred said:

I'd like to see him involved a bit further up the pitch. He's definitely got skill on the ball and is quite sharp with his short, give and go passing.

His strongest and favoured position is as an attacking midfielder. He was never a defensive midfielder until LJ tried to make him into one.

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Red7 said:

His strongest and favoured position is as an attacking midfielder. He was never a defensive midfielder until LJ tried to make him into one.

And those early performances of real promise weren’t as a DM....because Brownhill took on that role.  Why did LJ change it?  Because he’s LJ!

[Gazred]

2 minutes ago, Red7 said:

His strongest and favoured position is as an attacking midfielder. He was never a defensive midfielder until LJ tried to make him into one.

Agree, he's effectively been neutered these last couple of seasons.

Bright young player. By all means coach his all round game but encourage the natural, instinctive stuff.

Hopefully he gets chances under NP.

[robin_unreliant]

1 minute ago, Red7 said:

His strongest and favoured position is as an attacking midfielder. He was never a defensive midfielder until LJ tried to make him into one.

This is what puzzlles me. He is often said to be an attacking midfielder but he nearly always passes sideways or backwards and I can't remember him having a shot. I guess he has but it was probably some time ago. 

If his instinct and aptitude is to be an attacking player he is doing an amazing job of hiding it and pretending to be something else. 

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

This is what puzzlles me. He is often said to be an attacking midfielder but he nearly always passes sideways or backwards and I can't remember him having a shot. I guess he has but it was probably some time ago. 

If his instinct and aptitude is to be an attacking player he is doing an amazing job of hiding it and pretending to be something else. 

Playing to instruction.

Even from the bits at Monaco, he’s a pass, move, receive player, he’s not a dribbler per se....but if his team mates do that with him, you break lines and progress up the pitch.

Those early 5 or 6 games were a breath of fresh air, speed of thought, technique, weight of pass etc.  He then struggled.  I don’t deny that.  But he also lost Palmer out of the starting line-up, the player who was always making himself available for a quick, 10 yard forward / angled pass.  Over Xmas I went back and looked at video of the passes they made to each other in that spell of games,

Lets not write him off.

He’s younger than all of these from Webb downwards, who we all consider young players!:

 

[cidered abroad]

14 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

This is what puzzlles me. He is often said to be an attacking midfielder but he nearly always passes sideways or backwards and I can't remember him having a shot. I guess he has but it was probably some time ago. 

If his instinct and aptitude is to be an attacking player he is doing an amazing job of hiding it and pretending to be something else. 

Passing sideways and backwards is now so engrained in 95% of our first team squad. We have LJ  to thank for that and while Holden when he was appointed, made mention of more attacking, his teams were just as negative, afraid to go forward and relying on any goals from breakaways but not from sustained pressure.

Nigel Pearson has a big job to do to alter this serious problem.

PS. Would love to see Massengo as an attacking member of the side.

[Simon bristol]

On 07/03/2021 at 01:00, Oh Louie louie said:

End of the season. undisclosed fee, back to france.

Thats whats going to go down.

 

I wouldnt be at all surprised!

he was a breath of fresh (h)air coming in, but aside from energy, and a positive attitude, hes not really done much of note,,, no goal threat, no dribbling/ play making, and hes not got enough to his game to anchor the midfield.

id love to be proved wrong, and he’s obviously still young, but im not convinced he will make it for us in the championship 

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Passing sideways and backwards is now so engrained in 95% of our first team squad. We have LJ  to thank for that and while Holden when he was appointed, made mention of more attacking, his teams were just as negative, afraid to go forward and relying on any goals from breakaways but not from sustained pressure.

Nigel Pearson has a big job to do to alter this serious problem.

PS. Would love to see Massengo as an attacking member of the side.

For info....all Champ games, since arrived.

You can derive that he passes sideways 14.85 per90 at 78.5%.

He undoubtedly needs to improve his attacking numbers.

For context Bakinson has a better forward pass ratio to backward passes, Nagy similar to Massengo, but better accuracy.  O’Dowda makes more back passes than forward passes at a worse accuracy %.  Palmer a tad better but worse accuracy.

What the stats don’t say is in which areas of the pitch they make each pass type, but fair to say Palmer and O’Dowda in more advanced areas than the others from their pass maps.

[big dosser]

lj knocked every bit of football and confidence out of massengo.hopefully big Nigel will put it it all back together.as basso would say i believe there is a good energetic  talented player in massengo just needs big nigel to get the best out of the lad and show some faith in him and give him confidence he needs to excel.

i would much rather us work with young talent that can develop under the right manager than some of the older dross robbing a wage

[INCRED]

1 hour ago, KegCity said:

Think that's a harsh assessment, he's got excellent technique which is obvious every time he passes the ball. His movement is also intelligent, he made two great runs against Cardiff for example where if he'd been given the ball would've been one on one with the keeper. One of his first games against QPR on flag day, made a fantastic run and missed out on a diving header by inches.

You're right, he's not a defensive midfielder and he's not a tricky winger that'll beat men either. Fortunately those aren't the only two positions on the football pitch so he may have a career yet! I also think the "can't battle" comment in inaccurate. He gets lumps kicked out of him most weeks and continues to get better at shielding off opponents and releasing the football. His first few games showcased exactly what he can do, just a case of consistently doing it, which surely can only come from regular minutes?

It's a game of opinions and I'm very much in the Massengo fan club, but I don't see where some of the criticisms for him have come from. Semenyo, who's 18 months older than him, has played nearly every game for city this season and has scored 1 goal in the league. He's currently got no composure in front of goal, yet he's not considered a write off by many fans? (Quite rightly too, he's another young player who is unsurprisingly not the finished article as he's still a kid). Only time will tell, HNM might head off to Dortmund, he might head off to Daghenham and Redbridge, but it seems very premature to suggest that he essentially can't do anything on the football pitch when time and again he has showed real promise.

Anyway, that's my defence of HNM over. I do see why some people are disappointed considering his transfer fee, but I do think that if he'd come through our academy there would be as much hype around him as any other 19 year old at the club.

The lad is 19 and playing in a team when selected that are bereft of any confidence or ability to bring out the best in him

There is a good player there, he just needs better players around him to showcase his ability 

[KegCity]

34 minutes ago, INCRED said:

The lad is 19 and playing in a team when selected that are bereft of any confidence or ability to bring out the best in him

There is a good player there, he just needs better players around him to showcase his ability 

He's been no worse than the vast majority of senior players at the club this season who have had way more minutes than him. The criticisms towards HNM are also used against the team as a whole. With a more confident side around him I think he'll shine. Very interested to see how Pearson views him.

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

For info....all Champ games, since arrived.

You can derive that he passes sideways 14.85 per90 at 78.5%.

He undoubtedly needs to improve his attacking numbers.

For context Bakinson has a better forward pass ratio to backward passes, Nagy similar to Massengo, but better accuracy.  O’Dowda makes more back passes than forward passes at a worse accuracy %.  Palmer a tad better but worse accuracy.

What the stats don’t say is in which areas of the pitch they make each pass type, but fair to say Palmer and O’Dowda in more advanced areas than the others from their pass maps.

Thanks for the stats Davefevs. Bakinson is, imo, the only midfielder that makes tries to go forward than back. O'Dowda is a complete shocker as he runs miles with the ball toward opposition goal and then in a high percentage of occasions, turns back to his own goal.

We haven't seen enough of Massengo lately to form a current opinion. We certainly haven't known how best to uase him so I hope NP can improve him much more than the previous incumbents did.

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 hours ago, Nongazeuse said:

20 in July so nearly two years in the team and he doesn't seem to have made much progress.  I would still keep him but I can't see Chelsea putting in a decent bid over the summer based on current performances.

Eh?

I thought we bought him on behalf of Chelsea in the first place .

[redsquirrel]

1 hour ago, PHILINFRANCE said:

Eh?

I thought we bought him on behalf of Chelsea in the first place .

thats the answer,we are waiting for chelsea to back out of the deal so we can keep him and let him loose

[RobintheRed Red]

5 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Playing to instruction.

Even from the bits at Monaco, he’s a pass, move, receive player, he’s not a dribbler per se....but if his team mates do that with him, you break lines and progress up the pitch.

Those early 5 or 6 games were a breath of fresh air, speed of thought, technique, weight of pass etc.  He then struggled.  I don’t deny that.  But he also lost Palmer out of the starting line-up, the player who was always making himself available for a quick, 10 yard forward / angled pass.  Over Xmas I went back and looked at video of the passes they made to each other in that spell of games,

Lets not write him off.

He’s younger than all of these from Webb downwards, who we all consider young players!:

 

Dave wheres louis Britton ? 

[RobintheRed Red]

1 minute ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Dave wheres louis Britton ? 

 

2 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Dave where is louis Britton ? 

 

[REDOXO]

6 hours ago, KegCity said:

Think that's a harsh assessment, he's got excellent technique which is obvious every time he passes the ball. His movement is also intelligent, he made two great runs against Cardiff for example where if he'd been given the ball would've been one on one with the keeper. One of his first games against QPR on flag day, made a fantastic run and missed out on a diving header by inches.

You're right, he's not a defensive midfielder and he's not a tricky winger that'll beat men either. Fortunately those aren't the only two positions on the football pitch so he may have a career yet! I also think the "can't battle" comment in inaccurate. He gets lumps kicked out of him most weeks and continues to get better at shielding off opponents and releasing the football. His first few games showcased exactly what he can do, just a case of consistently doing it, which surely can only come from regular minutes?

It's a game of opinions and I'm very much in the Massengo fan club, but I don't see where some of the criticisms for him have come from. Semenyo, who's 18 months older than him, has played nearly every game for city this season and has scored 1 goal in the league. He's currently got no composure in front of goal, yet he's not considered a write off by many fans? (Quite rightly too, he's another young player who is unsurprisingly not the finished article as he's still a kid). Only time will tell, HNM might head off to Dortmund, he might head off to Daghenham and Redbridge, but it seems very premature to suggest that he essentially can't do anything on the football pitch when time and again he has showed real promise.

Anyway, that's my defence of HNM over. I do see why some people are disappointed considering his transfer fee, but I do think that if he'd come through our academy there would be as much hype around him as any other 19 year old at the club.

The discussion is of course about Massengo. Not Semenyo. I have said in the piece I wrote earlier he is playing at a level he should not be at simply because he was bought to be around the first team. Vis a vis Engval
 

I like the comment about Dortmund or Dagenham as that is they way I see it in 24 months. Right now he gets off the bench because we have no one else. This was mostly the same under Holden and after the initial few weeks under LJ too. He was a 2million punt adding to a light weight midfield heavy with light weights. Will he become better, who knows, but there is nothing to suggest he should be in the first team squad in a top six club in anything he does.

As you have broaden this to Semenyo, by and large the same can be said, however he does get past players and adds to a forward line that consists of a bloke who could not trap a bag of cement an injured inside forward and Nakhi Wells, who was very good until LJ turned him into a bit part sub after three weeks. 

Semenyo plays because the club made the decision not to sell him to bigger clubs that were looking at him in 2019

HNM adds little and I guess many will disagree, we will see if he gets a start, if Vyner and Nagy are out of the Birmingham game on Saturday. That will tell us everything anyone needs to know about whether he is currently fit for purpose in Pearson’s eyes

We could also bring Bakinson into the thread, but I don’t want to derail this one. However 22 minutes containing seven touches and a substitution tells most that he will be doing extra work this week to see if he can provide the manager what he’s looking for.

[REDOXO]

5 hours ago, INCRED said:

The lad is 19 and playing in a team when selected that are bereft of any confidence or ability to bring out the best in him

There is a good player there, he just needs better players around him to showcase his ability 

There in lay the problem, he will add little without better players. This indicates how poor our purchases have been. 

The fact that a couple of different posters have said we saw a splash of ability for a few minutes against Brentford and Cardiff will indicate to Pearson. If not us he hasn’t got enough.