The Massengo Conundrum

[Topper 123]

I personally think he’s wasted a lot of time at city , we’ve got a very good under 23 and here we have a youngster who needed games to get used to English football, in my eyes he could have been the general of their midfield as a learning curve and occasionally dipped his toe as sub in championship,this in a winning side of older lads would have boosted his confidence no end and got him a little street wise to our game 

[Prinny]

Just now, And Its Smith said:

If a youngster had come through our youth and has the same ability as Massengo, you’d be saying how good he was I reckon 

We can prove that idea completely wrong with my views on Morrell which are basically the same. Except I like Morrell's tactical discipline and organisational skills. I didn't think he'd be a Prem player either due to a lack of special qualities in important areas.

[Prinny]

1 minute ago, ralphindevon said:

Did you see the game tonight? He was lightning at times running to close play down. yeah I watched, didn't see anything special in that regards that someone else couldn't do ( barring the Lansbury's of the team)

Ive seen plenty of great from him, one great moment on the far side tonight where he controlled an awkward ball and kept possession under pressure, a number of great moments in the Brentford game I think it was. That's the tight area control I spoke about, that's good but that doesn't make a great central midfielder at champ level IMO.

I agree he isn’t’ ‘great’ for 90 minutes but if he was at 19 he wouldn’t be playing for us, I think he has every chance of playing premier league eventually. 

Basically my point is, that what he IS great at, doesn't control a game, or create chances, or score goals, or be a great defender or physical presence. A nice bit of control here and there isn't enough.

He's ok at a lot, but if we had kept Morrell, and not spent anything on HNM, we'd be in the same place IMO.

Would you spend £2.5 million rising to £8m on him now? Even ignoring Covid changes. After what we've seen, I wouldn't want to add a player of Massengo's quality to our squad for that much money.

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, Prinny said:

We can prove that idea completely wrong with my views on Morrell which are basically the same. Except I like Morrell's tactical discipline and organisational skills. I didn't think he'd be a Prem player either due to a lack of special qualities in important areas.

If you can’t see that Massengo is better than Morrell then we cannot help you 

[Prinny]

1 minute ago, And Its Smith said:

If you can’t see that Massengo is better than Morrell then we cannot help you 

Both backup players at average championship teams.

[ralphindevon]

1 minute ago, Prinny said:

Basically my point is, that what he IS great at, doesn't control a game, or create chances, or score goals, or be a great defender or physical presence. A nice bit of control here and there isn't enough.

He's ok at a lot, but if we had kept Morrell, and not spent anything on HNM, we'd be in the same place IMO.

Would you spend £2.5 million rising to £8m on him now? Even ignoring Covid changes. After what we've seen, I wouldn't want to add a player of Massengo's quality to our squad for that much money.

I’m not sure what the money situation was/is I know there’s been a few figures thrown around but not sure how many are true. Rising to £8m seems a lot but what’s that involve I wonder?

[mozo]

1 hour ago, Prinny said:

Basically my point is, that what he IS great at, doesn't control a game, or create chances, or score goals, or be a great defender or physical presence. A nice bit of control here and there isn't enough.

He's ok at a lot, but if we had kept Morrell, and not spent anything on HNM, we'd be in the same place IMO.

Would you spend £2.5 million rising to £8m on him now? Even ignoring Covid changes. After what we've seen, I wouldn't want to add a player of Massengo's quality to our squad for that much money.

I'd like to see his stats for tonight because I wouldn't mind betting he'd score highly in a range of areas; sprints, interceptions, passes, pass completion %, distance covered... all the stuff that a team needs in the engine room. 

He's still learning the game at this level and is managing to convince Nigel Pearson no less that he's worthy of 90 minutes. 

I think Semenyo and Massengo still have more to give than we're seeing now. If they keep getting games their [positive] arrogance will start to come through.

[Davefevs]

Mariappa MOTM for me tonight.

Players who earned more than their corn (in team sheet order):

• O’Leary 
• Hunt
• Massengo

Massengo used the ball well tonight, was composed on it, he got through a shed-load of work, showed agility as well as more pace than I’ve seen previously.  Great tackle on Holtby in the box in 2nd half too.  

Palmer knows he will get quick ball from Massengo, that’s not to be under-estimated.  That buys Palmer that extra split second to do his stuff.

He has given Pearson food for thought with his last 2 appearances, which coupled with Brentford is 3 above average performances out of his last 5 starts (Cardiff and Watford - the other two starts, shocking team performances too).

In a midfield where nobody has staked an automatic place this season (Williams might change that opinion at some point), performances like tonight and Saturday won’t do him any harm.

[Numero Uno]

Yet again a minority missing the basic point that Massengo will continue to improve given his age, same as Semenyo.

[RedorDead BCFC]

If he could add goals to his game we will be panicking in transfer windows that he will sold off.

Pearson obviously see’s something in him as he could of taken him off tonight rather than put midfielders on and push him further up field. 

Would like to know what is his foul rate against him as his ability to spin out of tight spots and shielding of the ball invites opposing teams to foul him. 
I think a lot of people forget when he is playing that he is still 19 in a foreign country and not phased with the championship. 
 

[DaveInSA]

Deary me, what a thread, I sometimes think we've reached peak OTIB, and then something like this happens.

If you read some sentences from some of the posts and put them all together, you then get some semblence of the truth.

He's a young, talented, clever player working in a midfield that has for most of his time here, been absent. It's flipping impossible to be great in a field of mediocrity and incompetence.

He's 19. 19. I think there's a Paul Harcastle song in there somewhere. When I was 19, I had very little clue about anything. If there's a player in their, big Nige will get it out and on the field.

I still think we're short in midfield (literally and figuratively). This has to be Ashtons biggest failure in my view (I couldn't resist that). We need a leader in there to help gel the youngsters and free them up to do the business...

[Davefevs]

3 hours ago, RedorDead BCFC said:

If he could add goals to his game we will be panicking in transfer windows that he will sold off.

Pearson obviously see’s something in him as he could of taken him off tonight rather than put midfielders on and push him further up field. 

Would like to know what is his foul rate against him as his ability to spin out of tight spots and shielding of the ball invites opposing teams to foul him. 
I think a lot of people forget when he is playing that he is still 19 in a foreign country and not phased with the championship. 
 

Your wish is my command.

Of Championship central midfielders who’ve played 500 mins plus:

Top of the tree.

COD 6th!

Weimann 8th!

 

[MarcusX]

 

17 hours ago, Prinny said:

We can prove that idea completely wrong with my views on Morrell which are basically the same. Except I like Morrell's tactical discipline and organisational skills. I didn't think he'd be a Prem player either due to a lack of special qualities in important areas.

Joe Morrell is 24... there's no comparison

[Prinny]

40 minutes ago, MarcusX said:

Joe Morrell is 24... there's no comparison

You're being very desperate to play gotcha here, I get it, but the conversation is  And It's smith said, you wouldn't think this way if he's from the academy. And the proof against this is, an academy player who I think the same way about for the same reasons. So that's why I used that example.

There is a comparison. What a player offers and how much they cost. Unless your plan is to wait 5 years to try and get promotion...

 

 

 

[Port Said Red]

44 minutes ago, Prinny said:

You're being very desperate to play gotcha here, I get it, but the conversation is  And It's smith said, you wouldn't think this way if he's from the academy. And the proof against this is, an academy player who I think the same way about for the same reasons. So that's why I used that example.

There is a comparison. What a player offers and how much they cost. Unless your plan is to wait 5 years to try and get promotion...

He's 19 and starting and contributing to games for a team in the top half of the Championship. Morrell is currently struggling to get game time with a team who were until recently flirting with relegation. I think @MarcusX has a reasonable point.

[Prinny]

15 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

He's 19 and starting and contributing to games for a team in the top half of the Championship. Morrell is currently struggling to get game time with a team who were until recently flirting with relegation. I think @MarcusX has a reasonable point.

We're literally one place ahead of Luton. Um you might need to go check what 24/2 is to understand which half of the table we're in.

Until recently he was struggling to get game time until Vyner and Nagy both got concussions.

[Port Said Red]

20 minutes ago, Prinny said:

We're literally one place ahead of Luton. Um you might need to go check what 24/2 is to understand which half of the table we're in.

Until recently he was struggling to get game time until Vyner and Nagy both got concussions.

They are now, and we have only just dropped out of the top half, but that doesn't reflect where the two teams have been throughout the season and you know it. Your pedantry does you no favours. The facts are that he is making significant contributions to our team and Morrell is making little or no impact for his. I struggle to see where you are going with this comparison.

[Prinny]

2 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

They are now, and we have only just dropped out of the top half, but that doesn't reflect where the two teams have been throughout the season and you know it. Your pedantry does you no favours. The facts are that he is making significant contributions to our team and Morrell is making little or no impact for his. I struggle to see where you are going with this comparison.

Significant contributions. Let's get through it. Game by game, and I'll show you what he's done this season. IMPACT wise.

 

Coventry: START Drawing when he came off. 1-0 after.

Reading: SUB Losing to Losing. 0-1 when he was on.

Rotherham: SUB Losing to Losing. 0-0 when he was on.

Millwall: START Lost, played full.

Preston: START Losing when he came off. 0-0 after.

Luton: START Losing when he came off. 1-1 after

Preston: SUB Winning to Winning. 1-0 when he was on.

Norwich: SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Derby: SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Brentford. START Losing 3-1 when he came off 1-0 after.

Cardiff. START Losing 0-2 when he came off 0-0 after.

Watford. START Lost played full.

Reading. SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Middlesbrough. SUB Winning when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Swansea: SUB Winning when he came on 1-0 after.

Bournemouth: SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 after.

Birmingham: START Won played full game.

Blackburn: START Draw, played full game.

 

What's the point of all this? He the player, doesn't affect games that much. He's not a significant contributor. He doesn't win us points or games. It's a team game, of course, but is he really making a difference individually? The point about Morrell is, that very little would change, and we wouldn't have had to spend the money on Massengo. Even if you think Morrell is crap and doesn't affect games, it won't change much about our season.

When Massengo starts we're W2 D1 L6. Of the wins, one of which was a draw when he came off. And we never got a worse result after he came off. Not even a worse score line! That should tell you something! Is that the top half (13th) form you were talking about? W2 D1 L6? But really it's W1 D2 L6 . 7 points from 27? 5 from 27? 

When he comes on as a sub. At no point have we gained extra points. Now a lot of his appearances are very late. but that's the point, it's not a significant contribution. We did score twice when we were already winning games when he was on! If you want to desperately cling to something! !

Lets include all the sub appearances and just the end results. It's 16 points from 18 games. That's 0.888 recurring points a game. times that by our number of games (37) = 32.8 recurring. 33. where would that put us? I mean I assume even you would know that 21st isn't top half.

So let's just do game states when he plays at all. So if we score 1-0 even if we're already winning it counts as a win for him. We'll try to give him extra points to skew it. W3 D9 L6. 18 points from 18 games! Is that the top half form you're talking about? 1 point per game would also put us STILL 21st.

The idea that he's a significant contributor to performance or our position as a top half championship team in 13th isn't really true is it? "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts" - Daniel Patrick Moynihan If I actually have miscounted a score line here or there, apologies. I'm not intending to deceive, it's not worth it, someone will check and prove me wrong.

 

I'll use the same criteria to judge Morrell. Morrell has 10 appearances. 5 Start 5 subs.

So his 5 starts result in W2 D2 L1. So 8 points from from 15. So that's better than Massengo. When he goes off in those starts it's  2W 2D 1L so that's 8 from 15, better rate than Massengo. 8 points from 5 games, They'd be 5th on 59 points if if continues like that! Small sample size of course. Wait is 5th in the top half? Oh it is! Nice!

He has 14 points from 10 games that he's played in, so that's also better than Massengo.

And in game states. 2W 4D 4L. 10 points from 10. 1 point per game. Same as Massengo.

 

So it looks like that Morrell does about the same or better per game as Massengo? But Luton are a terrible bottom half team and you know it! So why has Morrell done this in a much worse team than us, yet Massengo has worse/same in a better team?

There is a serious point to be made regarding the teammates and that Massengo has played when there's a lot of injuries. But he's not a difference maker, that's the point there. Him being available hasn't made us win games.

This isn't to prove that Massengo is crap, or Morrell is great, I think they're roughly the same player. It's to point out that there's not much between them, so you have to consider value if you're trying to build a squad to get us up. One is 19, one is 24, but the aim isn't to assemble the squad with the most potential, it's to win football games and get promotion. There's little to no drop off in results when these two players play for their teams so value matters. (Obv will make the point we don't have wage numbers). Is the drop off from Morrell to Massengo £2.5+ million?

But but Massengo is 19! Where's the guarantee we'll see his "potential" at City? It's about winning now, inside of a financial structure. Massengo isn't helping us with value or play. He's ok btw, I don't hate him, just I'm not wowed by him. If he turns out to be a superstar and leads us to promotion, great, if we sell him for megabucks! great. I'd be delighted to be wrong about him.

[Port Said Red]

5 minutes ago, Prinny said:

Significant contributions. Let's get through it. Game by game, and I'll show you what he's done this season. IMPACT wise.

 

Coventry: START Drawing when he came off. 1-0 after.

Reading: SUB Losing to Losing. 0-1 when he was on.

Rotherham: SUB Losing to Losing. 0-0 when he was on.

Millwall: START Lost, played full.

Preston: START Losing when he came off. 0-0 after.

Luton: START Losing when he came off. 1-1 after

Preston: SUB Winning to Winning. 1-0 when he was on.

Norwich: SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Derby: SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Brentford. START Losing 3-1 when he came off 1-0 after.

Cardiff. START Losing 0-2 when he came off 0-0 after.

Watford. START Lost played full.

Reading. SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Middlesbrough. SUB Winning when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Swansea: SUB Winning when he came on 1-0 after.

Bournemouth: SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 after.

Birmingham: START Won played full game.

Blackburn: START Draw, played full game.

 

What's the point of all this? He the player, doesn't affect games that much. He's not a significant contributor. He doesn't win us points or games. It's a team game, of course, but is he really making a difference individually? The point about Morrell is, that very little would change, and we wouldn't have had to spend the money on Massengo. Even if you think Morrell is crap and doesn't affect games, it won't change much about our season.

When Massengo starts we're W2 D1 L6. Of the wins, one of which was a draw when he came off. And we never got a worse result after he came off. Not even a worse score line! That should tell you something! Is that the top half (13th) form you were talking about? W2 D1 L6? But really it's W1 D2 L6 . 7 points from 27? 5 from 27? 

When he comes on as a sub. At no point have we gained extra points. Now a lot of his appearances are very late. but that's the point, it's not a significant contribution. We did score twice when we were already winning games when he was on! If you want to desperately cling to something! !

Lets include all the sub appearances and just the end results. It's 16 points from 18 games. That's 0.888 recurring points a game. times that by our number of games (37) = 32.8 recurring. 33. where would that put us? I mean I assume even you would know that 21st isn't top half.

So let's just do game states when he plays at all. So if we score 1-0 even if we're already winning it counts as a win for him. We'll try to give him extra points to skew it. W3 D9 L6. 18 points from 18 games! Is that the top half form you're talking about? 1 point per game would also put us STILL 21st.

The idea that he's a significant contributor to performance or our position as a top half championship team in 13th isn't really true is it? "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts" - Daniel Patrick Moynihan If I actually have miscounted a score line here or there, apologies. I'm not intending to deceive, it's not worth it, someone will check and prove me wrong.

 

I'll use the same criteria to judge Morrell. Morrell has 10 appearances. 5 Start 5 subs.

So his 5 starts result in W2 D2 L1. So 8 points from from 15. So that's better than Massengo. When he goes off in those starts it's  2W 2D 1L so that's 8 from 15, better rate than Massengo. 8 points from 5 games, They'd be 5th on 59 points if if continues like that! Small sample size of course. Wait is 5th in the top half? Oh it is! Nice!

He has 14 points from 10 games that he's played in, so that's also better than Massengo.

And in game states. 2W 4D 4L. 10 points from 10. 1 point per game. Same as Massengo.

 

So it looks like that Morrell does about the same or better per game as Massengo? But Luton are a terrible bottom half team and you know it! So why has Morrell done this in a much worse team than us, yet Massengo has worse/same in a better team?

There is a serious point to be made regarding the teammates and that Massengo has played when there's a lot of injuries. But he's not a difference maker, that's the point there. Him being available hasn't made us win games.

This isn't to prove that Massengo is crap, or Morrell is great, I think they're roughly the same player. It's to point out that there's not much between them, so you have to consider value if you're trying to build a squad to get us up. One is 19, one is 24, but the aim isn't to assemble the squad with the most potential, it's to win football games and get promotion. There's little to no drop off in results when these two players play for their teams so value matters. (Obv will make the point we don't have wage numbers). Is the drop off from Morrell to Massengo £2.5+ million?

But but Massengo is 19! Where's the guarantee we'll see his "potential" at City? It's about winning now, inside of a financial structure. Massengo isn't helping us with value or play. He's ok btw, I don't hate him, just I'm not wowed by him. If he turns out to be a superstar and leads us to promotion, great, if we sell him for megabucks! great. I'd be delighted to be wrong about him.

**** me you need to get a life mate.

[Prinny]

8 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

**** me you need to get a life mate.

I expected that sort of response. It's what happens when someone struggles to change their view even when evidence is presented. Cool behaviour.

Don't say you don't have the time to read it, you've 12000 posts on the forum, and you responded immediately.

If you think that working out if what you think is correct, or at least has some basis in reality is a waste of time, more fool you tbh.

I've given you my best shot.

“Life is too short to spend your precious time trying to convince a person who wants to live in gloom and doom otherwise. Give lifting that person your best shot, but don’t hang around long enough for his or her bad attitude to pull you down.”– Zig Ziglar

 

[Davefevs]

Bristol City sub appearance result changers:

All comps

League games only:

 

Conclusion.....Fam makes a difference off the bench, very few other players do.

(I definitely need to get a life )

 

[Davefevs]

And just when players start.

All comps:

League:

Conclusion:

Fam is much worse starting than from bench!

[Port Said Red]

1 hour ago, Prinny said:

I expected that sort of response. It's what happens when someone struggles to change their view even when evidence is presented. Cool behaviour.

Don't say you don't have the time to read it, you've 12000 posts on the forum, and you responded immediately.

If you think that working out if what you think is correct, or at least has some basis in reality is a waste of time, more fool you tbh.

I've given you my best shot.

“Life is too short to spend your precious time trying to convince a person who wants to live in gloom and doom otherwise. Give lifting that person your best shot, but don’t hang around long enough for his or her bad attitude to pull you down.”– Zig Ziglar

 

I am not living in doom and gloom though, so stop quoting my own signatures to me because it's irrelevant to this discussion. Your, no doubt selective stats really mean **** all to me. I use my eyes, and they tell me the kid is a player, and I have seen enough players over a 55 year period to recognise one. 

He might not be the most creative when it comes to his final pass, but that may come.

Currently he is good enough that Pearson is ready to play him ahead of others, and at 19 and having less than 2 years in a new country, learning a new style of football and all that entails he has done a fine job. I think he will only get better, I just hope he sticks with us long enough to see it first hand.

[ciderwithtommy]

2 hours ago, Prinny said:

Significant contributions. Let's get through it. Game by game, and I'll show you what he's done this season. IMPACT wise.

 

Coventry: START Drawing when he came off. 1-0 after.

Reading: SUB Losing to Losing. 0-1 when he was on.

Rotherham: SUB Losing to Losing. 0-0 when he was on.

Millwall: START Lost, played full.

Preston: START Losing when he came off. 0-0 after.

Luton: START Losing when he came off. 1-1 after

Preston: SUB Winning to Winning. 1-0 when he was on.

Norwich: SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Derby: SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Brentford. START Losing 3-1 when he came off 1-0 after.

Cardiff. START Losing 0-2 when he came off 0-0 after.

Watford. START Lost played full.

Reading. SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Middlesbrough. SUB Winning when he came on. 0-0 when he was on.

Swansea: SUB Winning when he came on 1-0 after.

Bournemouth: SUB Losing when he came on. 0-0 after.

Birmingham: START Won played full game.

Blackburn: START Draw, played full game.

 

What's the point of all this? He the player, doesn't affect games that much. He's not a significant contributor. He doesn't win us points or games. It's a team game, of course, but is he really making a difference individually? The point about Morrell is, that very little would change, and we wouldn't have had to spend the money on Massengo. Even if you think Morrell is crap and doesn't affect games, it won't change much about our season.

When Massengo starts we're W2 D1 L6. Of the wins, one of which was a draw when he came off. And we never got a worse result after he came off. Not even a worse score line! That should tell you something! Is that the top half (13th) form you were talking about? W2 D1 L6? But really it's W1 D2 L6 . 7 points from 27? 5 from 27? 

When he comes on as a sub. At no point have we gained extra points. Now a lot of his appearances are very late. but that's the point, it's not a significant contribution. We did score twice when we were already winning games when he was on! If you want to desperately cling to something! !

Lets include all the sub appearances and just the end results. It's 16 points from 18 games. That's 0.888 recurring points a game. times that by our number of games (37) = 32.8 recurring. 33. where would that put us? I mean I assume even you would know that 21st isn't top half.

So let's just do game states when he plays at all. So if we score 1-0 even if we're already winning it counts as a win for him. We'll try to give him extra points to skew it. W3 D9 L6. 18 points from 18 games! Is that the top half form you're talking about? 1 point per game would also put us STILL 21st.

The idea that he's a significant contributor to performance or our position as a top half championship team in 13th isn't really true is it? "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts" - Daniel Patrick Moynihan If I actually have miscounted a score line here or there, apologies. I'm not intending to deceive, it's not worth it, someone will check and prove me wrong.

 

I'll use the same criteria to judge Morrell. Morrell has 10 appearances. 5 Start 5 subs.

So his 5 starts result in W2 D2 L1. So 8 points from from 15. So that's better than Massengo. When he goes off in those starts it's  2W 2D 1L so that's 8 from 15, better rate than Massengo. 8 points from 5 games, They'd be 5th on 59 points if if continues like that! Small sample size of course. Wait is 5th in the top half? Oh it is! Nice!

He has 14 points from 10 games that he's played in, so that's also better than Massengo.

And in game states. 2W 4D 4L. 10 points from 10. 1 point per game. Same as Massengo.

 

So it looks like that Morrell does about the same or better per game as Massengo? But Luton are a terrible bottom half team and you know it! So why has Morrell done this in a much worse team than us, yet Massengo has worse/same in a better team?

There is a serious point to be made regarding the teammates and that Massengo has played when there's a lot of injuries. But he's not a difference maker, that's the point there. Him being available hasn't made us win games.

This isn't to prove that Massengo is crap, or Morrell is great, I think they're roughly the same player. It's to point out that there's not much between them, so you have to consider value if you're trying to build a squad to get us up. One is 19, one is 24, but the aim isn't to assemble the squad with the most potential, it's to win football games and get promotion. There's little to no drop off in results when these two players play for their teams so value matters. (Obv will make the point we don't have wage numbers). Is the drop off from Morrell to Massengo £2.5+ million?

But but Massengo is 19! Where's the guarantee we'll see his "potential" at City? It's about winning now, inside of a financial structure. Massengo isn't helping us with value or play. He's ok btw, I don't hate him, just I'm not wowed by him. If he turns out to be a superstar and leads us to promotion, great, if we sell him for megabucks! great. I'd be delighted to be wrong about him.

For this type of analysis to work you would need to be able to have a second sample of the same games without massengo to actually understand whether the performances and results may have been worse without him, i.e. heavier defeats. As you can’t do this it makes the above pretty limited, judging a player more by watching him and understanding the game and his talent within it would be a better shout. 

[reddoh]

On 08/03/2021 at 16:56, Davefevs said:

Playing to instruction.

Even from the bits at Monaco, he’s a pass, move, receive player, he’s not a dribbler per se....but if his team mates do that with him, you break lines and progress up the pitch.

Those early 5 or 6 games were a breath of fresh air, speed of thought, technique, weight of pass etc.  He then struggled.  I don’t deny that.  But he also lost Palmer out of the starting line-up, the player who was always making himself available for a quick, 10 yard forward / angled pass.  Over Xmas I went back and looked at video of the passes they made to each other in that spell of games,

Lets not write him off.

He’s younger than all of these from Webb downwards, who we all consider young players!:

 

you meant the other downwards didn't you?

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, reddoh said:

you meant the other downwards didn't you?

No, down the table.  That’s right innit?

[Prinny]

 

33 minutes ago, ciderwithtommy said:

For this type of analysis to work you would need to be able to have a second sample of the same games without massengo to actually understand whether the performances and results may have been worse without him, i.e. heavier defeats. As you can’t do this it makes the above pretty limited, judging a player more by watching him and understanding the game and his talent within it would be a better shout. 

Person A: With my eyes I see this!

Person B: With my eyes i see this!

I mean ok, but that doesn't get you anywhere really. I'm doing, this is what I see, and here are the stats that back up that way of thinking.

I agree, we need a mirror world where he's not selected and someone else is  We don't have that though. Well, I can't access it... No problem with someone pointing out the flaws, i am aware of them but it does need stating.

The best you can do in football because of the chaos, is to look at the results when he's not in the team and you can factor in opposition, and injuries to the team ofc and other things. It's imperfect, but so is the understanding of the game. All of us. Anyone. No one I bet understands it perfectly. Ever come across anyone who's never made an error there? I certainly have!

One thing is sure though, you can't claim he's made a significant contribution to the top half team, when we're a) not top half, b) when he plays we're in close to if not relegation form. 

You can't analyse how good of a player he is, but you can determine his role in picking up points quite closely. Because we've picked up so few when he's played! Of course he could make the other players better by his training performances, maybe he's good for morale, but we have to be sensible here.

[Davefevs]

31 minutes ago, Prinny said:

 

I agree, we need a mirror world where he's not selected and someone else is  We don't have that though. Well, I can't access it... No problem with someone pointing out the flaws, i am aware of them but it does need stating.

The best you can do in football because of the chaos, is to look at the results when he's not in the team and you can factor in opposition, and injuries to the team ofc and other things. It's imperfect, but so is the understanding of the game. All of us. Anyone. No one I bet understands it perfectly. Ever come across anyone who's never made an error there? I certainly have!

One thing is sure though, you can't claim he's made a significant contribution to the top half team, when we're a) not top half, b) when he plays we're in close to if not relegation form. 

You can't analyse how good of a player he is, but you can determine his role in picking up points quite closely. Because we've picked up so few when he's played! Of course he could make the other players better by his training performances, maybe he's good for morale, but we have to be sensible here.

Out of interest, how did you evaluate Marlon Pack or Korey Smith in their time here at Championship level?

 

[Gmac]

3 hours ago, Prinny said:

 

You can't analyse how good of a player he is, but you can determine his role in picking up points quite closely. Because we've picked up so few when he's played! 

Football is a team game is it not? Feel it is very unfair to single out and judge a player based on points a team have achieved collectively. 
Not to quote our old manager SOD here but sometimes it is about performance over results, well when talking about individuals it is. A player can have either a good or bad game but not have an impact on the overall result. 
I appreciate you have your opinion on the player and I respect that. Having said that I have the right to disagree with you. Which is what I’m going to do. From what I have seen of him, the boy can play. Just needs some direction and proper instruction. I hope NP is the man to get the best out of him. 

[Prinny]

29 minutes ago, Gmac said:

Football is a team game is it not? Feel it is very unfair to single out and judge a player based on points a team have achieved collectively. 
Not to quote our old manager SOD here but sometimes it is about performance over results, well when talking about individuals it is. A player can have either a good or bad game but not have an impact on the overall result. 
I appreciate you have your opinion on the player and I respect that. Having said that I have the right to disagree with you. Which is what I’m going to do. From what I have seen of him, the boy can play. Just needs some direction and proper instruction. I hope NP is the man to get the best out of him. 

That's not it. I'm specifically debunking a claim that he's significantly contributed to a top half team by going through games played for said team and showing that we don't pick up points when he plays. Don't be confused there. It's not a way to determine individual ability at all, and I don't make that claim.

There's nothing I can really say to an opinion that just says, "I've looked at this player and I think differently", after all that's what I'm saying. I can ask you to explain, but nothing more. If you choose to explain by making stuff up like the facts are that he making significant contributions, I might push back   I respect well thought out opinions, even if they differ from mine, but not nonsense.