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Not physically big or strong enough.


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Have thought this for a while but after yesterday hit home really hard.

We have too many players who do not have the size or strength for championship football.

When Kala's went off yesterday we were so lightweight it was painful, Fam was bullied the whole game by there centre Half's and spent most of the game on his backside. Our midfield is tiny.

Both goals from crosses where strength and size were lacking to be able to hold off players.

I'm not advocating bash it up to big man football but quite a few Championship clubs do and we just can't compete.

We are overly reliant on academy football styles of tippy tappy do a trick football which is fine if both teams do it but up against physical Championship teams we are lacking badly.

If NP takes the job one there will be a clear out and 2 fully expect to see a more physically imposing team taking the pitch.

 

Edited by Coolrunnings
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I have posted similar to this a few times before.

It wasn't long ago that we played a back four of Bailey Wright, Aden Flint, Nathan Baker and Hörður Magnússon. All physically strong defenders and with Marlon Pack in front of them too!

The spine of our team is very weak and NP will know this needs strenghthening over the summer.

For me, even Kalas isn't a particularly dominant first ball centre back. He's a good defender who can handle himself but if he plays next to a Flint, Baker or Webster he improves another 20%

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Pearson made selection choices yesterday that showed he either wants to find a different way to play than that or simply doesn’t rate those who would counter this.

The obvious one here is Bakinson, who is far taller than any of our central midfielders who started the game or come on, yet he remained sat on the bench.

In the first half Famara made an excellent clearance at a corner, now I fully accept that he hasn’t played well enough of late or scored sufficient goals, but specifically for that part of his game we certainly do need a Plan B (& indeed Plan A, because it seems highly unlikely he will be with us next season).

Kalas & Mariappa don’t worry me at all as a centre back pairing but there is a lot of work to do with the rest of the side to address this & Vyner is definitely one who can play his part here.

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The squad is biased towards ball skills rather than height or strength, if we had Kalas and Baker at the back that would help but other than those we're lacking height at the back, didn't used to be a problem when we had Flint, Webster, Magnússon. The fact is that whenever we've had decent tall defenders, those are the ones other clubs want and so they get sold for a profit. Tall players are worth more in the transfer market and more difficult to come by, with due respect to Rotherham their tall players are mostly L1 standard so not the sort we'd be after, but they were effective as they had no real competition in the air.

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2 hours ago, Coolrunnings said:

Have thought this for a while but after yesterday hit home really hard.

We have too many players who do not have the size or strength for championship football.

When Kala's went off yesterday we were so lightweight it was painful, Fam was bullied the whole game by there centre Half's and spent most of the game on his backside. Our midfield is tiny.

Both goals from crosses where strength and size were lacking to be able to hold off players.

I'm not advocating bash it up to big man football but quite a few Championship clubs do and we just can't compete.

We are overly reliant on academy football styles of tippy tappy do a trick football which is fine if both teams do it but up against physical Championship teams we are lacking badly.

If NP takes the job one there will be a clear out and 2 fully expect to see a more physically imposing team taking the pitch.

 

What is the average size of teams being promoted?

A metric that is consistently progressing is the average distance covered by players. Another consistent is that promoted teams are having more % of the ball and making more passes.

Big players do not necessarily progress either of the above. Teams, successful ones are very frequently getting around the opposition in numbers, in units, pressing high, aggressively counter pressing and this requires players with high defensive intensity and quick recovery post explosive movements. Big and muscular frequently = low recovery and slower movements.  

In regards to centre forwards there is a clear movement (no pun) away from traditional numbers nines who bully the opposition by dropping off, working across and play in half spaces and players work beyond them. Big players do not necessarily progress tactical flexibility.

Pearson attempted to sign Kante. 5.6.  

 

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4 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Pearson made selection choices yesterday that showed he either wants to find a different way to play than that or simply doesn’t rate those who would counter this.

The obvious one here is Bakinson, who is far taller than any of our central midfielders who started the game or come on, yet he remained sat on the bench.

Kalas & Mariappa don’t worry me at all as a centre back pairing but there is a lot of work to do with the rest of the side to address this & Vyner is definitely one who can play his part here.


NP didn’t have many selection options yesterday with Baker and Mawson missing and selected a side he felt best suited to match Rotherham’s direct style. Unfortunately  It didn’t work...... Bakinson is certainly tall but lightweight and not exactly built like a CB so no surprise he stayed on the bench,

Should Big Nige stay then I’m sure he’ll look to beef up the squad and that’ll depend on how much can be raised by moving on some of the fringe players. Currently only Bentley has some real transfer value.

It’ll be an interesting summer window for sure particularly if Big Nige signs a longer deal.

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37 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

Think generally we are a little lacking in power / size but let’s not go overboard: we played a team we won’t come across that often at this level, whose main strength is physicality. Our bigger problem (certainly at home) is a big lack of creativity.

I think there are plenty of Rotherham type teams in The Champ... Millwall, Cardiff, Wycombe, Stoke and Birmingham are a few that come to mind.

Its not a great league this year and Norwich, Brentford and Swansea aside, most teams do not try and pass through you. 

NP needs to find a balance between physicality and creativity as we are currently lacking in both.

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I think it's a bit of a reactionary point of view. Easy to say when we get beaten by a physical team at home, but it's exactly the same as saying 'we need to sign more creative players' after Watford score for fun against us.

I don't necessarily think the size of the team is that important, provided you have a few players who have the height and aggression to defend set plays (which we do) and the correct organisation - then it's not a huge problem. 

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49 minutes ago, Edgy Red said:

I think there are plenty of Rotherham type teams in The Champ... Millwall, Cardiff, Wycombe, Stoke and Birmingham are a few that come to mind.

Its not a great league this year and Norwich, Brentford and Swansea aside, most teams do not try and pass through you. 

NP needs to find a balance between physicality and creativity as we are currently lacking in both.

Mind you we’ve beaten all those physical teams you mention this season. So I’d still argue it isn’t the main problem.

That said there is clearly a set piece problem if we’ve conceded at least 4 more than any other team this season.

Edited by steveybadger
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I totally agree with Edgy and height matters so much in this division. With Mawson and Baker out, Taylor Moore not rated enough (maybe Bako too), we are really suspect from all corners and freekicks into the pen area. Only Fam seems to win these convincingly and Kalas can jump so high (and injure himself!) outside the area but is scared to give away a pen.

And 'flapper' is a great shot stopper but has been worked out  by all opposition coaches as one to put under pressure.

Oh, for a Flint, Webster Shaun Taylor type player right now

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10 minutes ago, Hampshire Red said:

I totally agree with Edgy and height matters so much in this division. With Mawson and Baker out, Taylor Moore not rated enough (maybe Bako too), we are really suspect from all corners and freekicks into the pen area. Only Fam seems to win these convincingly and Kalas can jump so high (and injure himself!) outside the area but is scared to give away a pen.

And 'flapper' is a great shot stopper but has been worked out  by all opposition coaches as one to put under pressure.

Oh, for a Flint, Webster Shaun Taylor type player right now

What would you say about teams such as the peak Barcelona side circa 2009, Liverpool last few years or Man City currently? Each of those sides have a few bigger players, naturally, but they haven't filled their squad with them.

The reason it's not a great comparison is because they're so strong in other areas that they either create more changes at the other end or hold possession thus rendering the need for physicality to defend as less important.

Perhaps then we can follow suit and become more of a possession based side or focus on becoming more potent in attack. Attack is the best form of defence as they say, if we keep the ball better (something we've been poor at recently) the opposition gets less opportunities to outmuscle us. 

 

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1 hour ago, steveybadger said:

Think generally we are a little lacking in power / size but let’s not go overboard: we played a team we won’t come across that often at this level, whose main strength is physicality. Our bigger problem (certainly at home) is a big lack of creativity.

On the whole I’d agree with that. But I thought yesterday, first half anyway, we showed some creativity. Problem yesterday, as I’ve suggested elsewhere, is we had two main strikers who both looked like they’d rather be anywhere else. 

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24 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Anyone think Matt Crooks would be a good signing in the summer? 

Only thing is midfield is probably our strongest position now. He has played well against us this season.

He’s underrated, posted on twitter group last night too.

25FC2342-B01F-4F09-BFB4-988FAB17B169.thumb.jpeg.9ed41561d56f9d1216ede99f51d8ebed.jpeg

27 years of age.  I’d rather sign him than Chris Brunt.  He’s not just a big unit, he’s got decent technique too.

As is Michael Smith.  I’d take him over Diedhiou every day of the week.  Not saying at 29 I’d sign him in the summer.  

But it’s about finding players that fit your system.  Look at Ajayi and Vaulks from their side that went down.  West Brom and Cardiff picked them up (and cheaply), yet a lot of City fans would turn their noses up had we signed players from little old Rotherham.  A lot would turn their noses up at Smith because of Swindon.  I’d rather we just signed the best players we can.  Crazy idea, eh?

The question for someone like Crooks is does he have the same effect for someone like us?  That’s the job of Talent ID to work out.

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24 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He’s underrated, posted on twitter group last night too.

25FC2342-B01F-4F09-BFB4-988FAB17B169.thumb.jpeg.9ed41561d56f9d1216ede99f51d8ebed.jpeg

27 years of age.  I’d rather sign him than Chris Brunt.  He’s not just a big unit, he’s got decent technique too.

As is Michael Smith.  I’d take him over Diedhiou every day of the week.  Not saying at 29 I’d sign him in the summer.  

But it’s about finding players that fit your system.  Look at Ajayi and Vaulks from their side that went down.  West Brom and Cardiff picked them up (and cheaply), yet a lot of City fans would turn their noses up had we signed players from little old Rotherham.  A lot would turn their noses up at Smith because of Swindon.  I’d rather we just signed the best players we can.  Crazy idea, eh?

The question for someone like Crooks is does he have the same effect for someone like us?  That’s the job of Talent ID to work out.

Yeah hard to tell.

He makes me think of what Moyes likes to have in a Fellaini at Everton or Soucek now at West Ham. 

A tall strong midfielder that looks decent all round. Can play defensive or more advanced.

I remember thinking Vaulks might be a decent centre back for us. I know his main position is midfield, but he looked class at centre back against us in one game and Rotherham fans seemed to like him at the back whenever he played there.

Ajayi I expect we wanted. Class player. Good in midfield too when at Rotherham as well as at the back. 

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6 hours ago, GrahamC said:

...

The obvious one here is Bakinson, who is far taller than any of our central midfielders who started the game or come on, yet he remained sat on the bench.

Bakinson is tall, but not only is he not strong or especially tough, he doesn't have that fighting spirit (...yet?)

Our players being lightweight is one thing, but having a lightweight mentality is the bigger problem.

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1 hour ago, mozo said:

Bakinson is tall, but not only is he not strong or especially tough, he doesn't have that fighting spirit (...yet?)

Our players being lightweight is one thing, but having a lightweight mentality is the bigger problem.

True, but obvious to say, if we wanted more height we could have started with him & Vyner at RB & he should surely find it easier than say Massengo, to block his man.

There is no doubt part of this is the mental side of the game plus knowing how to use what physicality you have, Bailey Wright was barely 6ft but was very good at getting his body in the way.

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Strange as it may seem I don’t think Saturday’s performance was all bad. One of the goals conceded was a goalkeeping mistake and apart from that Rotherham only had a couple of chances. Massengo and Walsh had good games considering it was a new partnership, but the problems started when City got near to Rotherham’s penalty area. Palmer, Wells, Fam and CoD all had off days so there was zero creativity and everything fizzled out. If Palmer had been on (recent) form and if we’d had a decent forward on the pitch it could have been much better 

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i like semenyo,quite stocky but with a real turn of pace. as for at the back,or midfield, i think we had lots of smaller players because they were good at their game but cheaper options maybe. i couldnt believe my eyes the first time i saw JD at left back, i was scared,however he soon proved my fears unjust. Flint was a mountain,not replaced,not very skilful but took countless knocks like midget bites.didnt let much pass him in the air. Baker is good on his day but you dont need to be worrying if hes going to get crocked doing his job. bailey wright was a cruncher,loved his tackles.has to put attackers off a bit if they know they risk getting a bruise going up against the likes of him. 

was it an LJ thing? liked people he could talk face to face with?

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I think this could also relate to the number of injuries we collect as a club.

If our players have to train to their absolute limit to be able to compete at this level, where most teams are  on average bigger than us, then during those games against the physically superior players we are more likely to pick up injuries whilst battling physically stronger opposition. There are exceptions to that I know but, over a long period of time, a good big un will win against a good little un.

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On 21/03/2021 at 09:00, GrahamC said:

Pearson made selection choices yesterday that showed he either wants to find a different way to play than that or simply doesn’t rate those who would counter this.

The obvious one here is Bakinson, who is far taller than any of our central midfielders who started the game or come on, yet he remained sat on the bench.

In the first half Famara made an excellent clearance at a corner, now I fully accept that he hasn’t played well enough of late or scored sufficient goals, but specifically for that part of his game we certainly do need a Plan B (& indeed Plan A, because it seems highly unlikely he will be with us next season).

Kalas & Mariappa don’t worry me at all as a centre back pairing but there is a lot of work to do with the rest of the side to address this & Vyner is definitely one who can play his part here.

I think Bakinson is well and truly on the naughty stool. Hooked after 20 mins perhaps he reacted badly? For me he has great potential but must learn that football is his profession not his hobby and that 100% is needed all the time. On a good day I really like him. I hope that some tough lover from NP will be the making of him.

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On 21/03/2021 at 09:00, GrahamC said:

Pearson made selection choices yesterday that showed he either wants to find a different way to play than that or simply doesn’t rate those who would counter this.

The obvious one here is Bakinson, who is far taller than any of our central midfielders who started the game or come on, yet he remained sat on the bench.

In the first half Famara made an excellent clearance at a corner, now I fully accept that he hasn’t played well enough of late or scored sufficient goals, but specifically for that part of his game we certainly do need a Plan B (& indeed Plan A, because it seems highly unlikely he will be with us next season).

Kalas & Mariappa don’t worry me at all as a centre back pairing but there is a lot of work to do with the rest of the side to address this & Vyner is definitely one who can play his part here.

You have as good centre backs as you like but when we invite teams to cross the ball 20 or 30 times per game in to our box we will have problems. We simply cannot stop crosses at the moment

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The best teams in this league have the balance of delicate, pacy skillful players and big lads who will graft and put themselves about, we need to find that balance. Williams can hopefully add to that, so I'm remaining optimistic about this not being a problem with him waiting in the wings.

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Tommy Rowe will offer more physical strength and being actually very good in the air for a fairly short player. Will help on defending set pieces for sure.

Now he's back, I wonder if he gets in. It would probably be very likely that he would be back in if we hadn't signed Simpson.

Simpson signing means I think Simpson will have that right back position, for now at least, and he will have to perform to keep it.

So then it would probably be between Rowe and Sessegnon for left back. I actually think Sessegnon had looked really good there. So that will be an interesting decision for Pearson. 

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41 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Tommy Rowe will offer more physical strength and being actually very good in the air for a fairly short player. Will help on defending set pieces for sure.

Now he's back, I wonder if he gets in. It would probably be very likely that he would be back in if we hadn't signed Simpson.

Simpson signing means I think Simpson will have that right back position, for now at least, and he will have to perform to keep it.

So then it would probably be between Rowe and Sessegnon for left back. I actually think Sessegnon had looked really good there. So that will be an interesting decision for Pearson. 

I very much doubt it will happen but with O’Dowda out, but he could actually play LM/W....his natural position, and where he played much of his early career.

 

69FEC261-DA5B-4436-854B-1ED7FD61634C.jpeg

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