Silvio Dante Posted March 22, 2021 Report Share Posted March 22, 2021 Watched this on BBC1 tonight. Harrowing. All you can say is absolute respect to the players for coming forward, and hopefully nothing like this ever happens again. If you’ve not seen, watch on IPlayer. It’s a difficult watch, but essential to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUSSEL85 Posted March 22, 2021 Report Share Posted March 22, 2021 6 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: Watched this on BBC1 tonight. Harrowing. All you can say is absolute respect to the players for coming forward, and hopefully nothing like this ever happens again. If you’ve not seen, watch on IPlayer. It’s a difficult watch, but essential to do so. I couldn’t bring myself to watch it tonight but promised myself il catch up with it at some point this week. As you say it is essential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted March 22, 2021 Admin Report Share Posted March 22, 2021 15 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: Watched this on BBC1 tonight. Harrowing. All you can say is absolute respect to the players for coming forward, and hopefully nothing like this ever happens again. If you’ve not seen, watch on IPlayer. It’s a difficult watch, but essential to do so. Like @RUSSEL85 I couldn't bring myself to watch tonight, but was waiting to hear other people's opinions first. I note that this is only the first of three parts to. There is a long and in depth BBC article about the programme, I've purposely not copied this over like I normally would as there are some upsetting details discussed. For those interested, and it's a very powerful read https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56378292 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted March 22, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2021 All three parts are on IPlayer now. I’ve watched one and two. The first is Bennell, the second is Higgins mainly. The players in it are ridiculously articulate and brave. You can see how it was enabled, but I’ll save that discussion until more have watched it. Suffice to say, the story shouldn’t be about Bennell and Higgins, but David White, Andy Woodward, Steve Walters, Dean Radford and many more and their colossal bravery. It can’t ever happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexukhc Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 Just finishing the 3rd, horrific Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 I have not yet watched the BBC programme, but it will no doubt be as harrowing as the article I read several tears ago. Horrible, and quite frightening. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/nov/16/andy-woodward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 As Silvio says the first episode was harrowing to watch. Very powerful disclosures from the guys involved. That took a lot of courage. No surprise that Paul Stewart turned to alcohol and cocaine and that in itself can and does become the primary issue which in turn lowers self worth even further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Oil Services Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 It appeared not to be a "secret," though. These boys played for their youth teams against opponents that appeared to be well aware of what was going on, and opponents - other boys - who let them know they knew what was going on. Word gets around, even when young boys say nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murraysrightplum Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 Felt sick watching episode 1. Important to sit through it though. I struggle to see how the clubs involved weren’t aware when kids from other teams were well aware of it. When Paul Stewart said he was abused every day for 4 years I lost it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj77 Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 9 hours ago, RUSSEL85 said: I couldn’t bring myself to watch it tonight but promised myself il catch up with it at some point this week. As you say it is essential. I was like that until I caught a bit with David White who i met when I was a kid. Some of the stuff what was said and the scale it went on I just don't understand how it can be kept quiet for so long. It's so, so sad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murraysrightplum Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 I seem to remember there were rumours about Crewe in the 90s when I was at school... in Bristol! How no one heard the same rumours who lived nearby I just don’t believe. Anyone who turned a blind eye to this deserves to get the same treatment as the perpetrators IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Londoner Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 The sad thing watching it is i really wasn’t surprised it had happened as it had happened in other areas during that era like pop music and television, and like in those industry’s football didn’t want the bad publicity and so it was brushed under the carpet What is remarkable though is despite this players like Paul Stewart and David White still managed to have a decent career although it clearly was a barrier and prevented them being more successful, you’d hope the pfa have at the very least provided some counselling although i wouldn’t hold my breath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAl&Toby Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 There’s a similar thread in the Archive section. Sadly I suspect this sort of thing was - and might well be - rife. The individual of whom I was aware of as a child was a prominent figure who was involved in the local boys’ league, worked at what would now be known as South Glos leisure facilities and raised awareness of child abuse through fund raising for the League of Pity - part of the NSPCC. Innuendo and inference was common but it wasn’t until many years later was David Lawrence prosecuted and imprisoned. Yet this was a monster who appeared to be closely associated and presumably welcomed by organisations who should have known more and frankly did better. But I guess what better way to present yourself as a figure of respectability by working within the community and organisations who you’d assume would have the best interests of children at the forefront of everything they do. Those that stand up and expose these individuals for the type of people they are deserve all our respect and thanks. And as for that ****** on a Vespa? I hope he’s been able to live with himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judda Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 Watched last night. The saddest thing I took from it was that much more lads are likely to take it to the grave rather than speak out. How many we will never know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTRFTG Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 Paul Stewart is my best mate's cousin. Met him on many an occasion and he's one top bloke. Astonishing that he managed to keep his own abuse from ruining his family life and so sad that once he felt able to confront his abusers, doing so with openness and candour, that his beloved and supporting wife was taken from him so tragically by cancer. I know just how much he values the support he's been shown by family, friends and strangers alike and how much that support must go to preventing further abuse from ruining people's lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinmans Love Child Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 59 minutes ago, BigAl&Toby said: There’s a similar thread in the Archive section. Sadly I suspect this sort of thing was - and might well be - rife. The individual of whom I was aware of as a child was a prominent figure who was involved in the local boys’ league, worked at what would now be known as South Glos leisure facilities and raised awareness of child abuse through fund raising for the League of Pity - part of the NSPCC. Innuendo and inference was common but it wasn’t until many years later was David Lawrence prosecuted and imprisoned. Yet this was a monster who appeared to be closely associated and presumably welcomed by organisations who should have known more and frankly did better. But I guess what better way to present yourself as a figure of respectability by working within the community and organisations who you’d assume would have the best interests of children at the forefront of everything they do. Those that stand up and expose these individuals for the type of people they are deserve all our respect and thanks. And as for that ****** on a Vespa? I hope he’s been able to live with himself. I played for North Bristol Colts when Dave Lawrence was the manager, I was about 11 at the time and everyone called him ‘Gay Dave’, this was early 90’s so I think it was known that he had previous, I can’t believe he was allowed to have anything to do with football. He took my mate to watch Rovers on that moped and my mate said he drove past Twerton to a field overlooking the ground and he was there on his own with him. Nothing happened to my mate but could have done, shocking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbird1 Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 I back in the late 50s was Secretary of a under 11 football team, that played in the Church of England league. I must have been just 10 or 11. There was an AGM or similar of the league at their HQ at Temple Street Bristol. I went on my own, extraordinary thinking back being so young. After the meeting I was approached by a Mr K Summerhill, the Hon Sec of the league, who offered me a lift in his car. On getting him he immediately showed me some pictures of men and boys engaging in sexual acts. I panicked and fled the car, I did tell my parents, but they never did report it. Needless to say I never did go an where near that place again, but it still haunts me as to what extent the abuse was, under the guise of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 2 hours ago, walnutroof said: The sad thing watching it is i really wasn’t surprised it had happened as it had happened in other areas during that era like pop music and television, and like in those industry’s football didn’t want the bad publicity and so it was brushed under the carpet What is remarkable though is despite this players like Paul Stewart and David White still managed to have a decent career although it clearly was a barrier and prevented them being more successful, you’d hope the pfa have at the very least provided some counselling although i wouldn’t hold my breath I'm not surprised either. Rumours are not proof and children back then were less likely to be believed or, if believed, thought to be credible witnesses for a court case. I heard rumours about Jimmy Savile back in the 90s as did many others. If any of us had gone to the police we would have been laughed at. When I was at school something was rumoured to have gone on during school trips to Spain hosted by the Spanish teacher and as a result those trips were quietly dropped. Nothing else done. It's not just something only dating back to the 70s and 80s either. Look at Michael Jackson and the young boys with whom he shared a bed and the families who took money to not go to court yet he never served a day in prison. What has changed, for the better, these days is the intorduction of the concept of safeguarding: if you are in a position of authority and suspect something then you have a duty to investigate. Dario Gradi was an intelligent guy. Whilst he wouldn't have known the scale or any details of what Bennell was doing he must have suspected that something was going on yet did nothing in all that time. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56464043 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted March 23, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said: I'm not surprised either. Rumours are not proof and children back then were less likely to be believed or, if believed, thought to be credible witnesses for a court case. I heard rumours about Jimmy Savile back in the 90s as did many others. If any of us had gone to the police we would have been laughed at. When I was at school something was rumoured to have gone on during school trips to Spain hosted by the Spanish teacher and as a result those trips were quietly dropped. Nothing else done. It's not just something only dating back to the 70s and 80s either. Look at Michael Jackson and the young boys with whom he shared a bed and the families who took money to not go to court yet he never served a day in prison. What has changed, for the better, these days is the intorduction of the concept of safeguarding: if you are in a position of authority and suspect something then you have a duty to investigate. Dario Gradi was an intelligent guy. Whilst he wouldn't have known the scale or any details of what Bennell was doing he must have suspected that something was going on yet did nothing in all that time. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56464043 I think the thing with Crewe, and what makes Gradi all the more culpable, is that he was God there. Had Gradi wanted to take things further or investigate, he could have. It struck me that he liked Bennell as a coach and he was aiding bringing through players in line with Crewe’s strategy - and they couldn’t compete without Youth development. Had they acknowledged or pursued any concerns in the youth development, it would have collapsed the whole operating model. So, my take was that he turned a blind eye because of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 23 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: I think the thing with Crewe, and what makes Gradi all the more culpable, is that he was God there. Had Gradi wanted to take things further or investigate, he could have. It struck me that he liked Bennell as a coach and he was aiding bringing through players in line with Crewe’s strategy - and they couldn’t compete without Youth development. Had they acknowledged or pursued any concerns in the youth development, it would have collapsed the whole operating model. So, my take was that he turned a blind eye because of the above. I agree but I also think that if there was even a hint of something happening as set out in that Andy Woodward story linked above then he would have acted. As I noted with the JImmy Savile case we all heard rumours but they were barely scratching the surface of what he was actually up to. Such people are extremely good at keeping things quiet so that they are no more than runour. I don't think Dario Gradi knew what was going on, or even suspected its scale, but he must have known that something was not right and still turned a blind eye. Edit: At one company I worked at a manager was sacked for gross misconduct which was horrendous bullying of her staff. Her team was fairly isolated and I suspect that she told them everyone knew what was going on and was fine with it so nobody spoke up until it came up in an exit interview and then it all came out. There weren't even rumours, and I was a senior manager so would have heard them. Such people are very good at keeping their misdeeds quiet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILINFRANCE Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 Various posters on this thread have mentioned that they had heard of the rumours at the time and questioned how it could have gone on (unnoticed or, more likely, unchallenged) for so long. I can only recount a chapter of my childhood/youth. Like many young boys, I was a keen, budding football star and only too happy to accept the praises of a man who helped run a local boys football team; a man who was also prominent in a particular childrens charity and, unsurprisingly in hindsight, in producing film shows for childrens parties - an all-round good chap one might say. As I grew older, approaching my teens, I felt quite privileged when this upstanding member of the local community would offer to take me to our boys football matches on the back of his motorbike- he drove a Vespa and was a keen and regular attendee at the annual Isle of Man TT festival - he actually invited me to accompany him one year, but, unfortunately (), my parents declined his offer on my behalf. Whilst nothing untoward ever happened, when I entered my teens I seemed to feel somewhat uncomfortable in his company: there was no particular reason, he was always friendly, kind and polite, but there was just something, difficult to define, that left me ill at ease. We (my now teenage friends and I) would still meet up with him in our local park on Saturday mornings - he was also the secretary for a local mens amateur football club and used to encourage us to help him put up the nets and, of course, it was wonderful for us to play on a proper pitch and score in a real net. Anyway, a long story short and, in effect, the point of my post, is that, whilst we, for the most part, grew in to (relatively) streetwise teenagers, one of our group (perhaps vulnerable; or soft and weaker, as described by Andy Woodward) became increasingly close to our 'mentor', so much so that we used to tease him for being Monty's 'bum chum' - Monty was our mentor's nickname and, of course, we, as teenagers, preferred to tease and ridicule our friend rather than approach anybody in authority to suggest they might investigate what was going on. Unfortunately, our friend drifted away from our group and ended up in quite an unsavoury situation, whilst Monty, until several years later, continued to be considered a pillar of the community. If only we all had the benefit of hindsight. EDIT I see that I am not the only one to have known 'Monty'. I was aware that @BigAl&Toby knew him - we have discussed this previously - and I now see that @Tinmans Love Child had the similar misfortune, although a decade or so after me. Once more, I say: If only somebody had been brave enough to speak out earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
East Londoner Posted March 23, 2021 Report Share Posted March 23, 2021 1 hour ago, Eddie Hitler said: I'm not surprised either. Rumours are not proof and children back then were less likely to be believed or, if believed, thought to be credible witnesses for a court case. I heard rumours about Jimmy Savile back in the 90s as did many others. If any of us had gone to the police we would have been laughed at. When I was at school something was rumoured to have gone on during school trips to Spain hosted by the Spanish teacher and as a result those trips were quietly dropped. Nothing else done. It's not just something only dating back to the 70s and 80s either. Look at Michael Jackson and the young boys with whom he shared a bed and the families who took money to not go to court yet he never served a day in prison. What has changed, for the better, these days is the intorduction of the concept of safeguarding: if you are in a position of authority and suspect something then you have a duty to investigate. Dario Gradi was an intelligent guy. Whilst he wouldn't have known the scale or any details of what Bennell was doing he must have suspected that something was going on yet did nothing in all that time. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/56464043 Unfortunately there does have to be a fine line between believing rumours and conducting a public investigation as there’s been numerous examples in the not so distant past of peoples lives and careers being ruined due to being falsely accused (Chris jefferies for example although very different charges) but what’s compounded this issue is the FA appears to have actively not wanted to know and that attitude has spread down to the clubs although it seems Manchester City have done a better job of recognising it’s failure than Crewe for example We can only hope the FA and football have now got their act together and they in conjunction with the PFA can try and repair some of the damage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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