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I don't know about you but it seems to me that the football authorities make rule changes or don't enforce other laws with no regard for the quality of the product.

I am sick of seeing players deliberately kick the ball away when ever a free kick or throw in is awarded against them. Also the player that stands on the ball preventing the opposition from taking a quick free kick. Yes I know that many will say this is "professionalism or game management" BUT what it means is less minutes with the ball in play, and less excitement. You see this at least 20 times in every game and nothing is done. 

For me the same applies to the obstruction law. It makes it too easy for a defender to make absolutely no effort to play the ball and just shoulder the forward off the ball to get a goal kick. This was a good rule for entertainment so why was it changed?

Finally diving, when was the last time we saw a yellow card for diving. When VAR looks at a potential penalty as often as not it is not awarded but in slow motion it is clear when a player deliberately tries to cheat and gain a penalty.

Football as a product has to be careful that leaves the fans excited and ready to watch the next game rather than totally turned of by actions that destroy the flow of the game and entertainment.

We pay for 90 mins and to be entertained. The result is of course important but remember what our kids see their idols do they will copy.

 

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I'm actually pretty in favour of games becoming 30/35 minutes a half & time stopped when the ball isn't in play. 

Remember reading something a while back that says the ball is in play for roughly 25 minutes each half so it would actually increase the amount of football you get to see.

Would stop any time wasting because it would then be pointless to do so.

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23 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

I'm actually pretty in favour of games becoming 30/35 minutes a half & time stopped when the ball isn't in play. 

Remember reading something a while back that says the ball is in play for roughly 25 minutes each half so it would actually increase the amount of football you get to see.

Would stop any time wasting because it would then be pointless to do so.

I do agree in principle, but it would end up like American football with games going on for hours

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29 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

I'm actually pretty in favour of games becoming 30/35 minutes a half & time stopped when the ball isn't in play. 

Remember reading something a while back that says the ball is in play for roughly 25 minutes each half so it would actually increase the amount of football you get to see.

Would stop any time wasting because it would then be pointless to do so.

There was a game last season in League 1 (can't remember the teams) where the ball was in play for less than 40 minutes!

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Agree on diving, needs to be dealt with consistently. It's downright cheating, unlike time wasting and game management which is as much part of the game as any other tactical decision. For me, it's not cheating in the same sense as diving.

On time wasting etc, I imagine the same must happen in other sports too? As has been said already, if the clock stopped whenever the ball wasn't in play the game would never end. Would the referee have to be constantly staring at a stopwatch, or does the 4th official do it? Would it not stop quick throws and free kicks etc as the ref has to ensure whoever's got an eye on the clock is ready to start timing again?

I would've thought that it might also open the door to further advertising etc during stoppages which I don't think anyone wants to see. 

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Clock stopping any time the ball goes out would be carnage trying to remember for every throw in etc, it would have to be used like rugby where the ref can say time off and use it when the ball goes out for goal kicks, corners, free kicks etc where the ref thinks the team taking it will delay the restart. Really the other suggestion should be the referee can reasonably add more time to extra time in these situations to account for the time wasting whereas we know they really don't. Give a team 1 time wasting warning, if they're deemed to have a 2nd infraction then the ref can add 30 seconds to extra time for every offence, every slow goal kick, slow corner, substitute meandering off the pitch etc.

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1 hour ago, Carey 6 said:

I'm actually pretty in favour of games becoming 30/35 minutes a half & time stopped when the ball isn't in play. 

Remember reading something a while back that says the ball is in play for roughly 25 minutes each half so it would actually increase the amount of football you get to see.

Would stop any time wasting because it would then be pointless to do so.

Agree.

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The rules are there already. They just need enforcing properly. If it were up to me I'd write to all clubs before the start of next season and warn them that rules will be enforced properly, then book any player who obstructs play when a set piece has gone against them, book any sort of timewasting, book any sort of dissent. A proper clampdown on rules. The first week of the season might be carnage but the players would soon get the message. 

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1 hour ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I don't know about you but it seems to me that the football authorities make rule changes or don't enforce other laws with no regard for the quality of the product.

I am sick of seeing players deliberately kick the ball away when ever a free kick or throw in is awarded against them. Also the player that stands on the ball preventing the opposition from taking a quick free kick. Yes I know that many will say this is "professionalism or game management" BUT what it means is less minutes with the ball in play, and less excitement. You see this at least 20 times in every game and nothing is done. 

For me the same applies to the obstruction law. It makes it too easy for a defender to make absolutely no effort to play the ball and just shoulder the forward off the ball to get a goal kick. This was a good rule for entertainment so why was it changed?

Finally diving, when was the last time we saw a yellow card for diving. When VAR looks at a potential penalty as often as not it is not awarded but in slow motion it is clear when a player deliberately tries to cheat and gain a penalty.

Football as a product has to be careful that leaves the fans excited and ready to watch the next game rather than totally turned of by actions that destroy the flow of the game and entertainment.

We pay for 90 mins and to be entertained. The result is of course important but remember what our kids see their idols do they will copy.

 

While I may not necessarily disagree with things you highlight football should not be viewed as a product. It not there solely for those who watch it. More people play than watch, or did pre pandemic. At present football is being altered far too fast (an opinion) because its being viewed as entertainment. 

Wanting a b c does not necessarily improve the game for those who play and coach it. VAR hasn't. The ever changing handball rules do not. Offside has become farcical. 

The obstruction rule - As long as its in playing distance = Good play. Diving does not mean a foul is not present - The game is nuanced, its not exact, rules are subjective it should not be made perfect because its a product.   

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12 minutes ago, sinenomine said:

The rules are there already. They just need enforcing properly. If it were up to me I'd write to all clubs before the start of next season and warn them that rules will be enforced properly, then book any player who obstructs play when a set piece has gone against them, book any sort of timewasting, book any sort of dissent. A proper clampdown on rules. The first week of the season might be carnage but the players would soon get the message. 

Then with equal force inquisite referees that don't enforce the rules or make correct decisions in good faith. Bring them up on disrepute charges instead of shunting them down the leagues. And, at the same time, censure teams that demand that refs are removed for good reason just when shit doesn't go their way. Take egos out of the rules from all sides, then things get better.

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Would love to see a yellow introduced for any player on the offending team who deliberately touches the ball after the whistle has gone.

Would wipe out 50% of time wasting. Just need to get rid of play acting injured and arguing with the ref, and one could almost fall back in love with watching the game again.

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2 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I don't know about you but it seems to me that the football authorities make rule changes or don't enforce other laws with no regard for the quality of the product.

I am sick of seeing players deliberately kick the ball away when ever a free kick or throw in is awarded against them. Also the player that stands on the ball preventing the opposition from taking a quick free kick. Yes I know that many will say this is "professionalism or game management" BUT what it means is less minutes with the ball in play, and less excitement. You see this at least 20 times in every game and nothing is done. 

For me the same applies to the obstruction law. It makes it too easy for a defender to make absolutely no effort to play the ball and just shoulder the forward off the ball to get a goal kick. This was a good rule for entertainment so why was it changed?

Finally diving, when was the last time we saw a yellow card for diving. When VAR looks at a potential penalty as often as not it is not awarded but in slow motion it is clear when a player deliberately tries to cheat and gain a penalty.

Football as a product has to be careful that leaves the fans excited and ready to watch the next game rather than totally turned of by actions that destroy the flow of the game and entertainment.

We pay for 90 mins and to be entertained. The result is of course important but remember what our kids see their idols do they will copy.

 

On Sunday....Celtic v Rangers

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1 hour ago, Carey 6 said:

I'm actually pretty in favour of games becoming 30/35 minutes a half & time stopped when the ball isn't in play. 

Remember reading something a while back that says the ball is in play for roughly 25 minutes each half so it would actually increase the amount of football you get to see.

Would stop any time wasting because it would then be pointless to do so.

Why does football have to be altered for TV? 

Football should be slow fast great rubbish and challenging.

The amount of time a ball is in play (ball rolling time) is dependant on how the teams play. Man City v another team keeping it to feet can see the ball play longer than your 30/35 minutes. Some teams its a lot less but not due to time wasting but due to aspects of how they approach the game. 

The game at adult level is ninety minutes. At other levels its shorter.  Length of matches is age related not linked to how much we the viewer sees. In adult football we can see teams getting their legs ran off by superior opponents, passed off the pitch reducing the time on the pitch alters those opportunities. Reducing time on the pitch would make it easier to kills teams momentum, time wasting would still occur.  

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36 minutes ago, sinenomine said:

The rules are there already. They just need enforcing properly. If it were up to me I'd write to all clubs before the start of next season and warn them that rules will be enforced properly, then book any player who obstructs play when a set piece has gone against them, book any sort of timewasting, book any sort of dissent. A proper clampdown on rules. The first week of the season might be carnage but the players would soon get the message. 

And who would everyone blame......... yes, the officials!

Nothing will change until the managers and coaches start calling out their own players for cheating, but they won’t, and-here lies the problem. 

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Clock stoppages will never work.

What time should I be looking to exit the Dolman if that rule came in.

If we were to agree that the clock didn't stop after the 80 minute mark, it might as a suggestion have some legs, but otherwise...

CARNAGE I TELLS YA!

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Niaive officials allow players to pull the wool over their eyes far to easily. I also wonder how many refs played to any decent standard, so understand how players' minds work and their propensity to "cheat". 

Now he's retired, football could do a lot worse than bring in Nigel Owens to tell them how on field officials can better apply rules/laws and get more respect from players. He could also advise on dealing with dissent and delaying tactics, because rugby has always seemed to have a better handle on it than does football. 

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1 hour ago, Cowshed said:

Why does football have to be altered for TV? 

Football should be slow fast great rubbish and challenging.

The amount of time a ball is in play (ball rolling time) is dependant on how the teams play. Man City v another team keeping it to feet can see the ball play longer than your 30/35 minutes. Some teams its a lot less but not due to time wasting but due to aspects of how they approach the game. 

The game at adult level is ninety minutes. At other levels its shorter.  Length of matches is age related not linked to how much we the viewer sees. In adult football we can see teams getting their legs ran off by superior opponents, passed off the pitch reducing the time on the pitch alters those opportunities. Reducing time on the pitch would make it easier to kills teams momentum, time wasting would still occur.  

Granted this article is a few years old, but it mentions that across 19 matches, the ball was only in play for more than 61 minutes in total twice. 

Premier League: Is time-wasting leaving fans short-changed?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40993250

I'd like to see the data on how this looks this season, wouldn't have a clue how to go about finding it though. Where have you got your statistics from regarding Man City?

 

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35 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Granted this article is a few years old, but it mentions that across 19 matches, the ball was only in play for more than 61 minutes in total twice. 

Premier League: Is time-wasting leaving fans short-changed?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40993250

I'd like to see the data on how this looks this season, wouldn't have a clue how to go about finding it though. Where have you got your statistics from regarding Man City?

 

Across 19 matches. The game with the least ball rolling time. Burnley (Dyche) WBA (Pulis). Two low possession teams focussing on set plays that consume time - Pulis Stoke could use a minute on a throw in. Rory Delap might take over ten a game.

IFAB (International football association board) did articles and studies on ball rolling time looking at game length. They were on line. Now dunno. It is not a particularly new topic. 

Teams with high balling times Man City Barcelona lots of short passes and extended passages of play.

Man City v Fulham will have a wildy different ball rolling time v Burnley and WBA (then). 

 

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I don’t think we see anything like as much diving as we once did, particularly in the PL. The foreign imports from a very different footballing culture who brought it into our came soon realise that it’s a definite no no in the UK.

I’d love to see Neymar try his diving tricks in the PL............:rofl2br:.

One other rule I’d really love see taken from rugby is that only the team captain can speak to the referee and a 10 min sin bin if the rule is broken.  It’s introduction would cause havoc at first but the players would soon learn

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3 hours ago, downendcity said:

Niaive officials allow players to pull the wool over their eyes far to easily. I also wonder how many refs played to any decent standard, so understand how players' minds work and their propensity to "cheat". 

Now he's retired, football could do a lot worse than bring in Nigel Owens to tell them how on field officials can better apply rules/laws and get more respect from players. He could also advise on dealing with dissent and delaying tactics, because rugby has always seemed to have a better handle on it than does football. 

I agree about rugby with a big BUT.

Rugby players are time wasting at line outs (throw ins to football fans) and scrums. Also using up the full allowed time for kicks at goal

However all the things like kicking ball away after a foul or stoppage, or consistent foul play when defending is dealt with by refs telling offending team captain that the next one results in a yellow card and 10 minutes in sin bin. Also once rugby refs, linesmen, TV monitor officials have decided what happened and what outcome is, the game gets going again. There is backchat to refs that did not occur back in the amateur days, but carry it on too long or too often, the ref usually wins.

In other words, there is respect for rugby refs unlike football now where the abuse from some players appears to be non stop and unpunished.

My solution is to fine the manager for all these petty things. It would soon stop it.

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8 hours ago, Clutton Caveman said:

I don't know about you but it seems to me that the football authorities make rule changes or don't enforce other laws with no regard for the quality of the product.

I am sick of seeing players deliberately kick the ball away when ever a free kick or throw in is awarded against them. Also the player that stands on the ball preventing the opposition from taking a quick free kick. Yes I know that many will say this is "professionalism or game management" BUT what it means is less minutes with the ball in play, and less excitement. You see this at least 20 times in every game and nothing is done. 

For me the same applies to the obstruction law. It makes it too easy for a defender to make absolutely no effort to play the ball and just shoulder the forward off the ball to get a goal kick. This was a good rule for entertainment so why was it changed?

Finally diving, when was the last time we saw a yellow card for diving. When VAR looks at a potential penalty as often as not it is not awarded but in slow motion it is clear when a player deliberately tries to cheat and gain a penalty.

Football as a product has to be careful that leaves the fans excited and ready to watch the next game rather than totally turned of by actions that destroy the flow of the game and entertainment.

We pay for 90 mins and to be entertained. The result is of course important but remember what our kids see their idols do they will copy.

 

Wells was yellow carded for allegedly diving a couple of matches ago - admittedly near the half way line.

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38 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I agree about rugby with a big BUT.

Rugby players are time wasting at line outs (throw ins to football fans) and scrums. Also using up the full allowed time for kicks at goal

However all the things like kicking ball away after a foul or stoppage, or consistent foul play when defending is dealt with by refs telling offending team captain that the next one results in a yellow card and 10 minutes in sin bin. Also once rugby refs, linesmen, TV monitor officials have decided what happened and what outcome is, the game gets going again. There is backchat to refs that did not occur back in the amateur days, but carry it on too long or too often, the ref usually wins.

In other words, there is respect for rugby refs unlike football now where the abuse from some players appears to be non stop and unpunished.

My solution is to fine the manager for all these petty things. It would soon stop it.

Im only an armchair rugby watcher. However, a while ago there was a thread in which the differences in respect for refs in football and rugby was debated, including players’ dissent and general cheating.

There were posts by rugby aficionados commenting that as rugby becomes ever more professional ( i.e. more money becomes involved!) it is going more the way we have seen in football for some time.

I agree that with rugby they seem to have more of a handle on the problem, in that referees have the yellow card sin bin for persistent offending and, as you say referees in rugby do seem to be stronger in standing up to dissent - do they get stronger backing/support from the sports governing bodies?  What happened to the new ruling in football that referees could move a free kick back 10 yards if the offending team dissented the decisions - that was taken from rugby IIRC?

As with so many issues surrounding football these days, it does appear that players have all the power and a seeming ability to do what they want, with little comeback. The VAR parlarva has not helped, as to me it seems that rather than reinforce the referees role, by taking away uncertainty or doubt over decisions, it has only made referees even more impotent, as they prefer to abdicate responsibility to VAR rather than risk making a contentious decision. Consequently, I am sure players take advantage , feeling that referees are increasingly powerless.

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6 hours ago, Cowshed said:

While I may not necessarily disagree with things you highlight football should not be viewed as a product. It not there solely for those who watch it. More people play than watch, or did pre pandemic. At present football is being altered far too fast (an opinion) because its being viewed as entertainment. 

Wanting a b c does not necessarily improve the game for those who play and coach it. VAR hasn't. The ever changing handball rules do not. Offside has become farcical. 

The obstruction rule - As long as its in playing distance = Good play. Diving does not mean a foul is not present - The game is nuanced, its not exact, rules are subjective it should not be made perfect because its a product.   

It doesn’t need to be perfect, but what is required is improvement to the ‘fairness’ of the situation, particularly where people are paying to watch.

We all probably remember the change to the back pass rule, that resulted in less time wasting by teams, and was an improvement I believe.

The authority’s can start with the kicking the ball away after a throw in or free kick is given, quite simply no one should touch the ball until the referee signals whose ball it is, the time wasted when a player quite deliberately  kicks the ball would end immediately, a few yellow cards followed by a couple of reds would sort that issue quickly and easily.

Am I right in thinking the rules about subs were changed to stop time wasting?

Simple changes can have a dramatic impact on a game that people pay money to watch.

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With regard to kicking the ball away.

Many will not know that the there was a directive sent out to referees at the start of last season, basically saying that players kicking the ball away a few yards were not to be booked.

A player clearly hoofing the ball away will still get booked though.

It was felt that the punishment for the small kicking away of the ball should not be the same as ( say) when a player takes one for the team and fouls someone on the halfway line, which is far more serious, but not enough for a red.

So, rightly or wrongly, referees are just following the directive given to them from above.

 

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28 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

With regard to kicking the ball away.

Many will not know that the there was a directive sent out to referees at the start of last season, basically saying that players kicking the ball away a few yards were not to be booked.

A player clearly hoofing the ball away will still get booked though.

It was felt that the punishment for the small kicking away of the ball should not be the same as ( say) when a player takes one for the team and fouls someone on the halfway line, which is far more serious, but not enough for a red.

So, rightly or wrongly, referees are just following the directive given to them from above.

 

It's a pity that those from above don't have to officiate at the matches!

I'm increasingly concerned about the amount of pressure the referees consider themselves to be under at certain grounds, ie they can't afford to upset the teams concerned. The number of penalties "won" by Manchester United being a case in point - anyone know how many penalties have been awarded against them?

(Obviously isn't a factor at Ashton Gate! )

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10 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

It doesn’t need to be perfect, but what is required is improvement to the ‘fairness’ of the situation, particularly where people are paying to watch.

We all probably remember the change to the back pass rule, that resulted in less time wasting by teams, and was an improvement I believe.

The authority’s can start with the kicking the ball away after a throw in or free kick is given, quite simply no one should touch the ball until the referee signals whose ball it is, the time wasted when a player quite deliberately  kicks the ball would end immediately, a few yellow cards followed by a couple of reds would sort that issue quickly and easily.

Am I right in thinking the rules about subs were changed to stop time wasting?

Simple changes can have a dramatic impact on a game that people pay money to watch.

The back pass rule was not implemented due to tv, it was an anomaly where the keeper could pick the ball up then not release it till the referee intervened. 

Referees already have rules to stop the ball being kicked away - Its a booking. In grass roots leagues kicking the ball away can be ten minutes in the sin bin. 

Am I right in thinking the rules about subs were changed to stop time wasting? Yes. Premier league clubs the ones with all the TV money of course wanted more subs with all the TV lucre they have, and of course then Managers used multiple subs destroying the momentum of games. 

I made reference to viewing the game as product. Rules are subjective and TV the quest for entertainment is influencing football to alter its rules. Some of these rules do not improve the technical standard of players. VAR is altering how the game is being played but does not improve those who play it. The offside rule has altered to a point its hard to coach players. The handball rule is a mess and now does not take into consideration the bio mechanics of jumping. 

Football should evolve slowly and universally not as a product.    

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