Gmac Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 Reported that UEFA are to scrap FFP rules and replace with a system that will allow clubs more freedom over spending. Take it this won’t effect us in the championship? Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 Think it’ll depend on what the proposals are, if they’re reasonable could be beneficial to bring everything uefa, prem, efl in line. Big if though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 CALLING @Mr Popodopolous !!!!! 1 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2015 Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 This would be great news for Football 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocking Red Cyril Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 But will it again give more power to the clubs with big financial backers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Red Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 The Man City case basically proved that their rules are unenforceable 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 3 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said: But will it again give more power to the clubs with big financial backers I think it would ultimately be good news for clubs like ours. We have the opportunity for decent backing, but FFP clips our wings and hands the advantage to parachute payment clubs or those that overspend. The risk though is it enables the giant clubs to leave others eating dust with no way to make up ground. I think FFP has helped clubs like Leicester for example. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gmac said: Reported that UEFA are to scrap FFP rules and replace with a system that will allow clubs more freedom over spending. Take it this won’t effect us in the championship? Thoughts? Obviously this will have nothing to do with Barcelona’s mountain of debt! If it did not already exist, this will only precipitate the gulf between the haves and the have nots. Odds on a European super league anyone? Edited March 24, 2021 by downendcity 1 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, 2015 said: This would be great news for Football Well otoh, on a UEFA level ie their review of top division finances across Europe ie PL and 50 or so other European top flights, it went from an aggregate loss to an aggregate profit from memory, from 2008/09 to 2018/19. I also suspect we have seen less club insolvency events in the FFP decade than before. The stuff about overdue payables, taxation and so on- also good. Creditors often get stiffed when clubs go into admin...so can HMRC at times. 1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said: I think it would ultimately be good news for clubs like ours. We have the opportunity for decent backing, but FFP clips our wings and hands the advantage to parachute payment clubs or those that overspend. The risk though is it enables the giant clubs to leave others eating dust with no way to make up ground. I think FFP has helped clubs like Leicester for example. Leicester a fine example. Would Sheffield United have gone up without? Tottenham have used the system well. Overseas Atalanta an interesting example, Ajax periodically return to prpmince. Did it help Atletico, Borussia Dortmund and Leipzig grow? Arguably yes. 1 hour ago, Northern Red said: The Man City case basically proved that their rules are unenforceable Well a club the size of AC Milan got a year ban in 2018. Lille and Wolves both got Settlement Agreements Summer 2020. The Man City case. Think UEFA on one level tied their hands somewhat with 2014 Settlement Agreement not least as Man City complied with that in an exemplary manner. Can you reopen an old case subject to a Settlement Agreement that was complied with? Yes it can be reopened but can it be made to stick? Certain charges were time barred. On a side note, Asian owned clubs. Talking the whole continent from Azerbaijan to the Far East. These are often the big FFP culprits.. Dunno if cultural differences at play. Edited March 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) https://www.football.london/premier-league/chelsea-arsenal-tottenham-uefa-ffp-20244291 Seems a good article on it. Changes feel unnecessary to me. If they (UEFA) are worried about legal challenges at EU level, the European Parliament can maybe just grant the regs an exemption under Specificity of Sport? Edited March 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 Some interesting legal stuff. https://law.emory.edu/eilr/content/volume-29/issue-4/comments/uefa-fairplay-european-union-antitrust.html https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/features/item/the-deficiency-of-fairness-in-financial-fair-play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 hour ago, downendcity said: Obviously this will have nothing to do with Barcelona’s mountain of debt! If it did not already exist, this will only precipitate the gulf between the haves and the have nots. Odds on a European super league anyone? ........................or lets have a 36 team "Champions League" (don't use the word Super whatever you do otherwise all the smaller clubs will get wind of what's happening and try and block it) using made up co-efficients so that we can effectively block teams like Ajax who have genuinely won their league and fill it with fifth and sixth placed but bigger stature Spanish/Italian/French/English clubs............if West Ham/Grenada/Spezia finish fifth give them a co-efficient of zero and let 13th placed Tottenham Hotspur/ Sevilla/Udinese in instead. Anybody who watches that crap really needs their head examining imo. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) Get the point and agree but Ajax 3 European Cups and a CL. 4 in total. Reached semis as recently as 2019, Granada, Spezia, even Weat Ham bigger stature?? West Ham clearly bigger than 1st two but that coefficent thing a terrible rule. As for Ajax and similar clubs, Bosman helped kill it for them in terms of consistently having a crack at the higher levels. Ajax have a great history though, and occasionally put a run together in Europe. Edited March 24, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocking Red Cyril Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 hour ago, downendcity said: Obviously this will have nothing to do with Barcelona’s mountain of debt! If it did not already exist, this will only precipitate the gulf between the haves and the have nots. Odds on a European super league anyone? Interesting how save travel would work across borders in an on running pandemic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Get the point and agree but Ajax 3 European Cups and a CL. 4 in total. Reached semis as recently as 2019, Granada, Spezia, even Weat Ham bigger stature?? West Ham clearly bigger than 1st two but that coefficent thing a terrible rule. As for Ajax and similar clubs, Bosman helped kill it for them in terms of consistently having a crack at the higher levels. Ajax have a great history though, and occasionally put a run together in Europe. What I'm saying (probably badly) is if the likes Grenada, Spezia and West Ham (bigger but not big enough for UEFA's liking) finish fifth their co-efficient will not let them in and neither do UEFA want them in their little plaything. Leicester City would probably be a better example - actually competitive on a consistent basis but not the type of team UEFA would want in their "final 36".............. The article I read seemed to imply that Ajax are the type of club that might miss out. If anyone could explain that to me.......................... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj77 Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 It wouldn't affect City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 hour ago, downendcity said: Obviously this will have nothing to do with Barcelona’s mountain of debt! If it did not already exist, this will only precipitate the gulf between the haves and the have nots. Odds on a European super league anyone? Oddly enough...it depends. Debt isn't in of itself a disqualifying factor (perhaps it should be), the interest on that debt sees FFP losses tick up however. Their debt stockpile is actually similar to Tottenham. SwissRamble did a bit of a breakdown of European clubs a while back. Short term nature of a lot of the debt plus Covid is a bad combination for Barcelona. Flipside is if no Covid quite a lot might have been paid down without issue. Bayern are exemplary though. Paid down their Stadium debt 10-20 years early!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Rocking Red Cyril said: Interesting how save travel would work across borders in an on running pandemic You can see it now................all English teams ordered to play home games in Azerbaijan because the French and German Governments (that's Governments not Football Associations) won't allow their clubs to come here. Edited March 24, 2021 by Numero Uno Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2015 Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 56 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Leicester a fine example. Would Sheffield United have gone up without? Tottenham have used the system well. Overseas Atalanta an interesting example, Ajax periodically return to prpmince. Did it help Atletico, Borussia Dortmund and Leipzig grow? Arguably yes. The only thing with that is that other clubs did rise to prominence during the 2000's when Premier League and La Liga were booming. Deportivo La Coruna, FC Porto, Monaco, Celtic, Shakhtar Donetsk, Valencia, Zenit St Petersburg, Middlesbrough, Sevilla, Feyenoord all reaching major Semi finals or finals at European Competitions. Football is a cyclist game, not much has really changed since then, if anything the gap has widened in the past 10 years you may say when you look at the list of Champions League Winners. Ajax your example have always been a club that every other decade rise to prominence in Europe, judging by their own History, and they too have a helping hand that they have plenty of young talent to pick from across Netherlands and Belgium. FFP restricts club's like ourselves to spend and reach our full potential. Better checks need to be done regarding ownerships of club's, but it is down to the club on what they spend their money on. Not much has really changed in terms of new club's rising up in Europe. Kaiserslautern of the 90s are now a 3rd tier side and clubs like Leicester or Leeds come and go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jj77 Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 minute ago, Numero Uno said: What I'm saying (probably badly) is if the likes Grenada, Spezia and West Ham (bigger but not big enough for UEFA's liking) finish fifth their co-efficient will not let them in and neither do UEFA want them in their little plaything. Leicester City would probably be a better example - actually competitive on a consistent basis but not the type of team UEFA would want in their "final 36".............. The article I read seemed to imply that Ajax are the type of club that might miss out. If anyone could explain that to me.......................... Grenada? The little island in the Caribbean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 minute ago, jj77 said: Grenada? The little island in the Caribbean? South of Spain, fairly near Malaga......currently 8th in La Liga. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted March 24, 2021 Report Share Posted March 24, 2021 30 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Oddly enough...it depends. Debt isn't in of itself a disqualifying factor (perhaps it should be), the interest on that debt sees FFP losses tick up however. Their debt stockpile is actually similar to Tottenham. SwissRamble did a bit of a breakdown of European clubs a while back. Short term nature of a lot of the debt plus Covid is a bad combination for Barcelona. Flipside is if no Covid quite a lot might have been paid down without issue. Bayern are exemplary though. Paid down their Stadium debt 10-20 years early!! I think I’m righting saying that Spurs accumulated their debt as a result of redeveloping WHL, whereas Barca has it’s eye watering level of debt before redeveloping their stadium! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 17 hours ago, Numero Uno said: South of Spain, fairly near Malaga......currently 8th in La Liga. That would be Granada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archie andrews Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 Does this mean steve get down the cashpoint a bit pronto?..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 23 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said: I think it would ultimately be good news for clubs like ours. We have the opportunity for decent backing, but FFP clips our wings and hands the advantage to parachute payment clubs or those that overspend. The risk though is it enables the giant clubs to leave others eating dust with no way to make up ground. I think FFP has helped clubs like Leicester for example. Clubs like Leicester who broke ffp rules to get promoted to the Prem?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoystonFoote'snephew Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 The cynic in me believes that more than one of the big 12 are in serious trouble with FFP under current rules and has lobbied hard for a relaxation, and as UEFA are all about keeping them sweet to the detriment of all other clubs, they have caved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numero Uno Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 9 hours ago, MarcusX said: That would be Granada Probably got the same chance of being allowed in the Champions League as Grenada then!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 30, 2021 Report Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) On 24/03/2021 at 15:27, downendcity said: I think I’m righting saying that Spurs accumulated their debt as a result of redeveloping WHL, whereas Barca has it’s eye watering level of debt before redeveloping their stadium! Agreed- just saying that the stockpile of debt if longer term wouldn't have been such an issue for Barcelona and maybe if not for Covid they would have hit some of those early repayments and moved gradually into a better position, improved balance sheet. Not sure how they managed to rack up so much anyway given their huge income (pre Covid)- it's shot up over the last decade- but the repayment Schedule definitely can tie in- Big Short Term Liability + Covid Revenue Decimation= Big Problem. The debt doesn't actually improve the Profit and Loss position (relevant for FFP)...so I'm actually at a bit of a loss as to where it all went. Refinancing the debt of course is possible, seems commonplace but that would surely come at a higher Interest rate- and this would impact FFP. Edited March 30, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted March 30, 2021 Report Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) Read bits about this online, UEFA spoke to European Parliament about it last week. Said something also about relevant stakeholders blah blah etc- finish consultation by end of the year, unsure if it means season, financial year or 2021- I'd be surprised if changes were introduced effective immediately. Some bits about possible wage caps or luxury taxes since Hard Caps could well fall foul of EU Law. Don't think it'll be transformed into a free for all- FFP maybe scrapped but it'll be replaced by new regulations I suspect. Definitely an argument that it's done its job to some extent- talking at the UEFA level- imagine if clubs had come into the Pandemic with pre FFP completely unregulated spending, talking in the top divisions across Europe. How many would have gone to the wall? Football League and especially Championship is an unusual case given the huge disparity with Parachute Payments, odd loopholes- UEFA regs adjust out the Profit on Disposal of Fixed Assets from FFP calcs amongst other things. Example would be: You can spend unlimited on Infrastructure, to build up the club but stealing a short term advantage by selling your ground to your owner- the two are harmonised basically. If Depreciation and Impairment of said Fixed Assets are excluded, as in our regs, and spending on Infrastructure is excluded- again as in our regs which I agree with, then so too is the Profit on Disposal of said Assets. Nothing to stop you doing it but it just doesn't count as "Relevant Income" for UEFA FFP. It's simple and consistent basically- and actually 'selling' a Fixed Asset for a short term Profit can lead to issues down the line- masks an underlying loss one year- it's artificial and if as a club you keep spending based on that 'profit' you can run into financial trouble down the line- both FFP and solvency. Edited March 30, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 7, 2021 Report Share Posted October 7, 2021 (edited) Small update on this one. Quietly and without much fanfare, UEFA seem to have updated their disciplinary processes. https://www.linklaters.com/en/insights/blogs/sportinglinks/2021/august/changing-formation-uefa-re-writes-the-rulebook-for-the-club-financial-control-body It feels like had these been in play before and UEFA took a tougher line at the outset then the Man City and PSG mega spending and especially PSG, well it might not have played out in the way it did. Certain bits of the Man City case were time barred- as in 5 years from when the breach or alleged breach occurred- now it is 5 years from the start of investigation, small tweak but potentially a big difference. New regulations on new evidence too, that would be of assistance to UEFA. They've learnt some lessons clearly.... ...Still it feels a bit like this. Bit like shutting the fixed asset loophole in the EFL after 5 or 6 clubs had done it, in one particular selling more than just the ground! Edited October 7, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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